Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

What We’re Not Fighitng For
National Review Online ^ | Issue Date: November 5, 2001 | By Ramesh Ponnuru, NR Senior Editor

Posted on 11/02/2001 7:00:19 PM PST by CyberCowboy777

 

What We’re Not Fighitng For
The list includes short skirts, dancing, and secularism.

By Ramesh Ponnuru, NR Senior Editor

Back to Top

n the nation at large, the September massacres have revealed a persistent unity under the surface of our political and cultural divisions. Among liberals, however, they have uncovered a deep divide lying under surface agreement. Many liberal intellectuals have rallied to the defense of the country. The Washington Post and The New Republic have been models of intellectual and moral clarity, supporting the president vigorously — more vigorously, indeed, than he may intend to act.

But the left wing of the liberal co alition has reacted to the attacks with instinctive opposition to military action coupled with not a little anti-Americanism. The Saids, the Sontags, the Chomskys, the other contributors to The Nation — Christopher Hitchens being a noteworthy exception — have been more interested in flaying America for its supposed sins than in defeating its enemies (or "enemies," as they would no doubt put it).

This is a deep disagreement about America's moral status. It is not, to be sure, a new disagreement. But since it manifests itself in debates about foreign policy, it has not been politically consequential since the Cold War. Differences on Kosovo were not important enough to prevent liberals and the Left from living together in the Democratic party. Now foreign policy matters again. The last few years saw an attempt to reunite campus leftists and labor — who had parted ways during the Vietnam War — in opposition to globalization. Owing to the attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center, that alliance is breaking up again.

For left-of-center supporters of the war, bringing around their allies is thus not only a patriotic service but a political imperative. Yet there is a danger that in the course of arguing for the war, liberals will settle on an interpretation of it that is both wrong and dangerous. According to this interpretation, what we are fighting against is "fundamentalism." What we are fighting for is "tolerance," "pluralism," "modernity," and "the open society" — and these terms are, with varying degrees of explicitness, to be understood as liberals understand them. What we are fighting for is, essentially, moral liberalism.

This, I take it, is what Salman Rushdie is getting at when he writes, in a generally quite admirable op-ed rebuking anti-American leftists, that we must be willing to die for "short skirts and dancing." Michael Lind, who is hard to categorize politically but is certainly a liberal on moral issues, makes the point more clearly: "It's a war of reason and tolerance against medieval superstition." Such superstition is not confined to radical Islam. "The anti-American Muslims believe that the United States is a godless, secular humanist regime. So does the religious right," writes Lind. "The radical Muslims want to roll back feminism and stamp out abortion and homosexuality. So does the religious right." Aryeh Neier, the head of the Open Society Institute, has drawn the same parallel. The Rev. Jerry Falwell's notorious remarks, he writes, "make clear that American fundamentalists are as hostile to modernity as their counterparts elsewhere."

Andrew Sullivan — who is not himself a liberal in the contemporary sense but is a scourge of religious conservatives — has been a strong and eloquent supporter of the war on Islamist terrorism. He goes so far as to call it "a religious war." In the New York Times Magazine, he writes that it is "a war of fundamentalism against faiths of all kinds that are at peace with freedom and modernity. This war even has far gentler echoes in America's own religious conflicts — between newer, more virulent strands of Christian fundamentalism and mainstream Protestantism and Catholicism." He concludes, "What is really at issue here is the simple but immensely difficult principle of the separation of politics and religion."

As I've said, not all the above-quoted people are orthodox liberals, but it's easy to see the appeal their view of the war will have for liberals. Many of them tend to regard what Alan Wolfe calls "moral freedom" as the essence of freedom and the highest achievement of our civilization. As the Supreme Court put it in an abortion case, "At the heart of liberty is the right to define one's own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life." (That's quite a lot to pack into the Fourteenth Amendment's due-process clause, one might think, but never mind.) Many of them tend to think that any form of absolute conviction, especially religious conviction, is likely to lead to coercion and, at the end of the road, totalitarianism. And all liberals, whether for or against the war, can agree that the Religious Right is a threat to American democracy. The Taliban, for them, is simply Gary Bauer in power.

If this view of the war might recruit some liberals, if widely adopted it would cause many others to stop supporting the war. It would shrink our international coalition. Is Pakistan prepared to fight by our side for abortion rights? Latin America has not been keen on tolerance for gays. And this is to say nothing of our domestic coalition. "Fundamentalist" Christians make up, by some estimates, a quarter of our population. We will not get our side of the war off to a good start by defining them as, philosophically, part of the enemy. And there are millions of Catholics who share many of their moral views. (I would wager that social conservatives make up a disproportionate number of our men in uniform.)

Sullivan outlines some of the parallels between Christian and Islamic "fundamentalists": Both groups have strong faiths based on absolute truths; both feel their cultures are slipping away from them and are consequently insecure. But this isn't much, really. Secular philosophies can be absolutist, and totalitarian, too. (Sullivan concedes, at least in his Times Magazine piece, that secular philosophies can be totalitarian. On his website, though, he writes, "In my view, atheists are far less politically dangerous than fundamentalists of any stripe.") The flip side of the coin is that philosophies of freedom can be held with absolute, indeed religious, conviction: Many of us believe that God commands us not to kill one another in disputes about God's commands. Most of us feel no doubt whatsoever when we say that the mass murders of 9/11 were absolutely wrong.

Islamists and Christian fundamentalists may agree that the West is decadent, just as Islamists and liberals may agree that the West bears responsibility for Third World poverty. Were we really attacked for our social license? One hesitates to make definitive judgments about the psychology of the strip-club Islamists who crashed our planes. But the answer is probably, "Yes, in part": This is the kernel of truth to the social-liberal analysis of the war. It seems unlikely that Osama bin Laden would hate us less, however, if we were really the "Christian crusaders" coming "under the banner of the cross" of his propaganda. It was evangelizing for Christianity, not peddling pornography, that landed Americans on the Taliban's death row.

The Revs. Falwell and Robertson lent some credence to the argument that Christian and Islamic "fundamentalism" are brothers under the skin. (This was, in fact, a reason that many conservatives regretted their remarks.) But for all their frequent folly and occasional malice — and I wrote an essay criticizing Falwell and Robertson the day their remarks were reported — conservative Christian leaders are not bringing down buildings. And what they, together with rank-and-file conservative Christians, want is a far cry from theocracy.

What conservative Christians want is to restore certain aspects of the America of the 1950s. That America banned abortion and practiced a mild censorship. Perhaps it was wrong to do these things. But most people would agree that the America of the 1950s was a free society, and a society worth defending from external attack. All of these things, of course, could also be said of the America of 1941.

We can fight for freedom while disagreeing about the full meaning of freedom. The war on Islamism does not need the distraction of our culture wars: of clerics who say our decadence is to blame for the attacks; of intellectuals who exult that our decadence has brought us such ugly enemies. Liberals should not support the war because the Taliban is hostile to feminism. They should support it because they are patriots. That is why most of them actually do support it. They are better than their ideology.



TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021 next last
I thought this was a good piece.

There is a huge difference between Right-wing Christians and Islamic Fundamentalist\Terrorist. Both in End Results and Method of accomplishment.

I myself do not want to bring the US back into a medieval state, only to bring Moral expectance on the society on an individual level. Jesus never tried to change the Government, only the people. That is the way to impact a society. Just look at the impact Christ had on the entire world, without any government involvement.

I would be a hypocrite to urge smaller Government, while pushing for more legislative morality. While there is a place for the basic Good (Read Morality) in Law, it must succumb to the in-alienable rights of the individual. I would rather bring a valid argument against to an individual than create a law outlawing it completely. And these types of laws definitely do not belong in the federal government. The Federal Government needing to be limited as the Constitution dictates.

What we need to fight for is the individual Freedoms and small the Federal Government intended by the Founding Fathers. These Freedoms allow Christians to affect their World the way Christ intended.

What conservative Christians want is to restore certain aspects of the America of the 1950s. That America banned abortion and practiced a mild censorship. Perhaps it was wrong to do these things. But most people would agree that the America of the 1950s was a free society, and a society worth defending from external attack. All of these things, of course, could also be said of the America of 1941. We can fight for freedom while disagreeing about the full meaning of freedom. The war on Islamism does not need the distraction of our culture wars: of clerics who say our decadence is to blame for the attacks; of intellectuals who exult that our decadence has brought us such ugly enemies. Liberals should not support the war because the Taliban is hostile to feminism. They should support it because they are patriots. That is why most of them actually do support it. They are better than their ideology.

1 posted on 11/02/2001 7:00:19 PM PST by CyberCowboy777
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: CyberCowboy777
"Conservative Christain leaders are not bringing down buildings. And what they want is a far cry from theocracy."
2 posted on 11/02/2001 7:13:33 PM PST by CyberCowboy777
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: CyberCowboy777
I guess I have created a flop! LOL!

Dead Issue or nobody has any other opinions?

3 posted on 11/02/2001 7:38:34 PM PST by CyberCowboy777
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: CyberCowboy777
I like the article. Maybe everyone is out getting ice cream or something.
4 posted on 11/02/2001 7:49:51 PM PST by Will
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: CyberCowboy777
Is this the right topic for the post? I might have put under Conservatism or Philosphy. And it's a Friday night! :D
5 posted on 11/02/2001 7:51:24 PM PST by BradyLS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: BradyLS
Was not sure on the Topic. It does pretain to current event?

Sorry ;~)

6 posted on 11/02/2001 8:05:37 PM PST by CyberCowboy777
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Will
No doubt! Stupid Ice Cream

At least I got somthing! LOL!

7 posted on 11/02/2001 8:07:06 PM PST by CyberCowboy777
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: CyberCowboy777
Interesting article--thanks for posting it. I have two sisters who are sure the religious right wants to establish a theocracy and take over their lives. When I scoff, they think I'm naive. The irony is, they are more religious than I am--but they are liberals while I'm a conservative. Go figure.
8 posted on 11/02/2001 9:49:17 PM PST by duvausa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: duvausa
I must admit that many Christians have the idea of creating law to legislate morality. I think that is a bad idea, as only God has the right to dictate morality. Laws are necessary to protect rights and insure a level of security, however a law must not interfere with our God given in-alienable rights. The laws that are necessary must come from the state or local level unless directly specified by the Constitution.

The average Christian or religious person seems to have problems with Pornography, Abortion and Drugs. They want to see them outlawed, and maybe they should. But lets not start down that slippery slope without understanding the consequences.

So far this is how I look at these issues.

I say porn should be regulated but not outlawed. We as a society do have the right to keep certain materials out of the hands of Minors.

Abortion kills a life. If it has it’s own Human DNA, Blood and Brain waves, among other things, it is a life and must be protected.

As for Drugs I am still debating that issue myself.

I would love to hear your ideas!

9 posted on 11/02/2001 10:05:18 PM PST by CyberCowboy777
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: CyberCowboy777
But that's all just YOUR morality. Where did you get that from? See, it's all the same. Christians and Jews look to a God who gave them the Law, and for many thousands of years have tried to live by it, successfully sometimes, unseccessfully others. But the basis for the ten commandments is simple: it's the golden rule.
10 posted on 11/02/2001 10:12:27 PM PST by Dogbert41
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Dogbert41
I guess your speaking of Abortion or Porn?

Life is Life - And It happens to be protected by the Constitution. I think a majority agrees that Life should be protected, except in War and Capital Punishment. The only debate in the abortion issue is when life begins. I do not think that is a moral issue, but a scientific one. I use the evidence I supplied above to determine life. So far I have heard no other statement of life’s beginnings with any certainty.

When do you believe life begins, a specific moment?

As for Porn, Parent rights supersede the publisher’s rights to sell to minors. Just as in Alcohol and Tobacco. It is the Parents choice when the children participate in those activities. I do not believe that is a moral question either, maybe in the strictest sense.

Thanks for the comments; I think it is a great topic.

11 posted on 11/02/2001 10:35:22 PM PST by CyberCowboy777
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: CyberCowboy777
I must admit that many Christians have the idea of creating law to legislate morality. I think that is a bad idea, as only God has the right to dictate morality.

We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law, with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, the unchaste, practicing homosexuals, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted. -Paul to Timothy, 1:9
Prescinding from the question of whether this references civil law or simply the moral law, sections like these make me doubt that mainstream Christianity has much room to accomodate Libertarian jurisprudence. I've also begun Robert P. George's Making Men Moral, which apparently argues that law is not so much to make men moral as to help their virtue.
12 posted on 11/02/2001 11:34:04 PM PST by Dumb_Ox
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Dumb_Ox
This is an interested topic.

The problem I have with Law dictating morality is that men make laws and laws could be use against any group of people.

If we keep Government involvement to a minimum, we increase our chance of freely sharing our faith.

Let Government protect basic freedoms, let Christ change Hearts. Of course I do not go to the extreme of some Libertarians (I am Constitution Party). Some things must be regulated or outlawed, but lets have the States take the forefront of that fight. That will maintain the peoples involvement and public accountability.

13 posted on 11/05/2001 8:21:47 AM PST by CyberCowboy777
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Dumb_Ox
Also...

If a Government dictated morality by Christian standards, what would be the punishment for non-compliance? How far would we take this power? Would Rock Music be banned?

It is mans uncanny ability to get himself in trouble that often leads him to God. If all morality was legislated leading to a "good" society, what comparison would there be to show light? If everyone was "good" or Moral, why would they need God? Man would have created peace and forced morality without God (not that is possible).

By limiting Government we allow Christians to move Freely and protect against a anti-Christian Government with broad powers. As well as created a fairly safe society, without sacrificing a persons ability to get into trouble.

Lets not forget that England tried to create a Moral society, giving the State powers to regulate and legislate Values and Morality. It did not work so well and my ancestors left to create a Free society.

14 posted on 11/05/2001 8:34:20 AM PST by CyberCowboy777
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: CyberCowboy777
If this view of the war might recruit some liberals, if widely adopted it would cause many others to stop supporting the war. It would shrink our international coalition. Is Pakistan prepared

What Pakistan is prepared to do is betray us the moment it thinks it can get away with it. This is independent of whether or not we proclaim the truth that this is a war of modern civilization against medieval barbarism.

15 posted on 11/05/2001 9:01:21 AM PST by steve-b
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: steve-b
That may very well be true. I am not sure what your source is, however, I would not trust any middle eastern country at this point.

This is a War of Freedom, whatever Freedom you attach. That alone is worth fighting for, with or without a coalition.

16 posted on 11/05/2001 9:33:23 AM PST by CyberCowboy777
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: CyberCowboy777
b
17 posted on 11/05/2001 9:40:02 AM PST by Don Myers
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: CyberCowboy777
Let Government protect basic freedoms, let Christ change Hearts. Of course I do not go to the extreme of some Libertarians

This sentence does not quite make sense. Either you want government to protect basic freedoms, or you want government to infringe on basic freedoms. No libertarian is for the government doing any more or less than that. Im sorry that you have been misinformed. You shouldn't get your "libertarian information" from those on this board who are conservative totalitarians. Please, read the platform. Then, if you find that libertarians want government to be involved in anything other than protecting basic rights, I will be willing to listen.

18 posted on 11/05/2001 9:49:33 AM PST by FreeTally
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: FreeTally
What I said was "some Libertarians ". I did not place the comment on the Party or every Libertarian.

As for protection of in-alienable rights, many Libertarians are pro-choice. They place the rights the woman has over her body over the rights of the Human Life inside her. That is an Extreme, IMHO. That is one example.

Another would be regulation of Roadways. Highways are a public domain and must be regulated to an extent. I have a Basic right of transportation, however my right does not extend to driving Drunk, whether I hurt anyone or not.

So you see, you can be for limited government and not be for the "if it don't hurt someone, it is legal" ideology. Driving on the wrong side of the road may not hurt someone, but I think it should be illegal.

19 posted on 11/05/2001 11:17:51 AM PST by CyberCowboy777
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: CyberCowboy777
As for protection of in-alienable rights, many Libertarians are pro-choice. They place the rights the woman has over her body over the rights of the Human Life inside her. That is an Extreme, IMHO. That is one example.

I agree. Im not sure how someone calling themselves a "libertarian" could be "pro-choice" because the abortion would be violating the rights of the (unborn)child. I guess the only way one can justufy both positions is to convince themselves that science has not answered the question of "when does life begin?".

I think if you read the 2000 platform, you would see that you have misunderstandings about other "libertarian views". I think many people, not speciically you, just jump to conclusions and believe "urban legends" about libertarian thought. If you have read it, then great! You would have at least taken more time than many here who constantly bash libertarian thought(not that you are bashing anything).

20 posted on 11/05/2001 11:27:28 AM PST by FreeTally
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson