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Would you die for your faith?
The Spectator (U.K.) ^ | 11/10/2001 | Katie Grant

Posted on 11/08/2001 9:09:43 AM PST by Pokey78

At the risk of being accused of treason and sedition — not a novel thing in my family — I admit to having a certain admiration for the young fundamentalist Muslims, with their east London or northern accents, eschewing home comforts to go off to fight for the faith of their fathers. They face the privations of cave-dwelling, the dangers of mortal conflict, and an uncertain welcome if they survive and return to Plaistow, Luton, Crawley, Birmingham or Burnley.

I’m not sure about the other places, but Burnley is no stranger to treason and sedition. My family comes from there. Our home, Towneley Hall (now owned by the Burnley Corporation), was once a centre of that other fundamentalist religion, recusant Catholicism. After the saying of Mass became illegal in 1559, we, too, were viewed with the deepest suspicion for having allegiances that ranked above Queen, country or government.

John Towneley, my ancestor, was heavily fined by Elizabeth I’s Inquisition Council, and went to prison several times. Eventually, in order that his 14 children should not have the satisfaction of claiming for their father a martyr’s crown, John was released from prison, mortally sick and almost blind, to be confined instead to his Towneley estates. His friend Sir Thomas Fitzherbert, from whom I am descended on my mother’s side, was also stubbornly Catholic. He died in the Tower.

Ever since I can remember, therefore, the idea of dying for your faith has been held up as a pretty splendid, if not heroic, thing to do. And Towneley heroes were not confined to the Reformation. Hearing Mass in the tiny oratory built on to the end of our drawing-room at Dyneley — the house in which the Towneley bailiff used to live and where John and his family heard Mass in secret using an altar that could be folded up to look like a wardrobe — my five sisters, my brother and I often found ourselves sitting next to a small and very ancient leather frame enclosing a piece of hair. The legend reads, ‘My cousin Frank Towneley’s haire, who suffered for his prince August 10th 1746’. His prince was Bonnie Prince Charlie (his brother was the prince’s tutor), and Uncle Frank was eventually hanged, drawn and quartered for his part in trying to restore a Catholic monarch to Britain. For many years my family kept Uncle Frank’s severed head in a basket and passed it round after dinner.

So when I hear people such as the 22-year-old accountant Mohammed Abdullah from Luton saying, ‘Our religious duty comes before everything else’, it has a certain resonance. Of course, Mr Abdullah’s religious and social history is entirely different from mine. Since Charles Martel’s victory at the Battle of Poitiers in 732 — a battle that spared my family and the rest of the people on these islands the prospect of Christian martyrdom in the 8th century — Islam and Christianity have gone their separate ways. Had that battle been lost, as Gibbon tells us, ‘the Koran would now be taught in the schools of Oxford and her pulpits might demonstrate to a circumcised people the sanctity and truth of the revelation of Mohammed’.

In the event it took the crisis precipitated by Henry VIII to set the English the ultimate test. When the Christian schism came, martyrs were, of course, claimed on both sides. Many, for example the Norfolks, cannily swayed with the wind. They were well rewarded. Families such as mine, who stuck willy-nilly to their guns, were derided as misguided fundies, traitors who were quite out of step with the more doctrinally enlightened and modern times in which they were living.

My family remains in many ways defined by its history. So, when I hear adjectives that once would have applied to us being applied now to keen young Muslims, it is impossible not to feel a certain frisson.

Moreover, I have found myself wondering if I, despite the recusant blood running through my veins, would rise, like 26-year-old Abu Yahya from Plaistow, to the challenge of defending my religion if called to do so. Would you? To push this question even further, if we were invaded by an Islamic state, would you, in order to save your life and the lives of your children, bow your head and perform the Salat if told to do so? Is not the fact that Muslims find this question (with appropriate reversals) easier to answer than Christians rather shocking?

It is perfectly true that Christians are specifically forbidden to seek martyrdom, something that caused Sir Thomas More mental agonies when awaiting his inevitable execution. But there is a difference between seeking martyrdom and accepting death. The 11 September hijackers (or the ones who knew the game plan) and the Muslims who are now clamouring to suffer in the service of Allah would not qualify for martyrdom under Christian definitions. Christians believe that seeking martyrdom is a wicked thing since it denotes the sin of pride.

But it is not fear of the sin of pride that would stop the British being martyrs now; it is the sin of indifference. Moreover, I have a suspicion that, faced with the threat ‘convert or die’, the instincts of even Catholic and Anglican bishops would be to compromise.

Since Vatican II, Catholics could certainly do so. Indeed, some commentators, such as the French academician Jean Guitton, appear to believe that Catholicism has no specific doctrine to advance; it should merely assist in deepening individual perceptions of God. The days of exclusivity are gone. What all contemporary Christians should be working towards is a relativist interpretation of religion in which the form of your worship matters less than the depth of your spiritual experience. In times in which, according to the Vatican II Decree on Missions, Ad Gentes, ‘nova exsurgit humanitatis conditio’, Christians should play down uniqueness.

I think it was this new emphasis on syncretism that inspired Cardinal Lustiger, then Archbishop of Paris, to declare in 1981, ‘I am a Jew. For me the two religions are one.’ He was, naturally, immediately contradicted by the Chief Rabbi, but you cannot say that the cardinal was not trying. Who knows what Monsignor Georges Darboy, one of his predecessors in the archiepiscopal chair would have thought? It is little more than a century since his martyrdom in the Paris commune.

And where does this kind of thinking leave me and my fundamentalist sympathies? Out of kilter, it seems, with the Christian world. For, while I have no wish to be martyred or to engage in religious wars, it seems an enviable thing to have something beyond worldly considerations for which you would be prepared to lay down your life.

Of course, some of those young men rushing off to Afghanistan are full of nonsense. Of course, some are using Islam as a peg on which to hang rather less noble ambitions than to die for Allah’s sake. But Islam has retained something that Christianity has lost: an ability to summon people to its support and not have them ask, ‘What on earth for?’

Some people may feel that what I deem a loss is actually Christianity’s gain; that indifference is better than fundamentalism. But, as I watch the Abduls and Aftabs go to meet their fates, I think about John Towneley and Uncle Frank. It is probably a treasonable thought, but it may be that, although I disagree with the causes that would-be Muslim martyrs are espousing, in the fibre of my being I have more in common with them than with many of my apparently more sophisticated friends and neighbours.


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1 posted on 11/08/2001 9:09:43 AM PST by Pokey78
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To: Pokey78
Pity the blind author's evident inability to distinguish between light and darkness.
2 posted on 11/08/2001 9:20:24 AM PST by onedoug
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To: Pokey78
It is probably a treasonable thought, but it may be that, although I disagree with the causes that would-be Muslim martyrs are espousing, in the fibre of my being I have more in common with them than with many of my apparently more sophisticated friends and neighbours.

This last sentence summarizes beautifully why this is such a dopey article. Dying for your faith is not independently moral or admirable, but depends entirely on what the higher moral claims of your faith are. There is no morality - none, zero - in dying for the faith of the Taliban, because what the Taliban is fighting for is so execrable.

And oh BTW, if dying for your faith requires you to take down thousands of innocents with you, your faith itself has serious problems.

If the author has a lot in common with the Islamists from "Plaistow, Luton, Crawley, Birmingham or Burnley" simply because she's deeply religious and so are they, she needs to think long and hard about what it is her religion asks her to do.

3 posted on 11/08/2001 9:21:03 AM PST by untenured
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To: Pokey78
What a bunch of new age crap. If this author wants to look for parallels to the group psychosis now gripping the Muslim world, she should do a little research into the cult of death that was Bushido. The only way the free world stamped out that corrupt belief system was with overwhelming horror followed by compassionate reconstruction.

Islamic "militants" and kamikaze pilots were cut from the same cloth. Educated, sexually repressed zealots brainwashed to turn the passion of youth into a destructive force. The same twisted lie of a "free ride" to paradise was sold to both groups. What a choice for a youth, live a long life dedicated to self-sacrifice and good works or go out in one big fireball after sake, table-dances, geishas, and all night raves.

Only when we smash the corrupt fundamentalist leadership of Islam that is molding these boys to their Satanic missions, will we stop the bombers.

WW1999

4 posted on 11/08/2001 9:25:02 AM PST by WilliamWallace1999
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To: untenured
The question is not "Would you die for your faith?".

The questions is "Would you kill for your faith?".

5 posted on 11/08/2001 9:26:54 AM PST by Pete
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To: Pokey78
Message to those who spread their faith "by the sword":

I will be glad to help you die for your faith. I would rather live for mine!

6 posted on 11/08/2001 9:26:56 AM PST by NetValue
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To: Pokey78
To die for your faith? This is one of the biggest farces Ive heard in quite some time. Those who died while killing innocent people in the Twin Towers did not die for their faith, they died to take faith away. Those Christians that died for their faith, did not attack, they had no alternative. The terrorists beliefs were not under attack so they didnt die to protect their beliefs but to spread them. I am sure in the past, christians, jews, buddhists, hindus have all forced their beliefs onto some other group, infact i am sure of it. all under the name of religion. as the aggressors they arent "martyrs." they die for glory of their cause and not to protect it. I am in the military and if called to do so, I am willing to give up my life for my country, and way of life and for those not willing to do so.
7 posted on 11/08/2001 9:28:20 AM PST by Docbarleypop
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To: Pokey78
I don't care why anyone kills anyone. I just hope we can kill killers before they kill us.
8 posted on 11/08/2001 9:31:30 AM PST by jlogajan
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To: NetValue
It takes more courage to live by the tenets of your faith!
9 posted on 11/08/2001 9:32:01 AM PST by Malacoda
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To: Pokey78
I'm glad you asked that. I have avoided teaching my child about the early Christian martyrs because I don't want her to get a complex, you know? But, yes, I would die for my faith in the sense that I will never submit to Satan's lies. I hope that's clear.
10 posted on 11/08/2001 9:33:47 AM PST by Havisham
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To: Pokey78
Family - yes
Country - yes
Faith - no
11 posted on 11/08/2001 9:35:28 AM PST by PRND21
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To: Pokey78
Why not? The Lord died for me.
12 posted on 11/08/2001 9:37:29 AM PST by Destructor
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To: Pokey78
Don't make promises that you don't know you can keep.

The example of Peter saying he would die for Christ, then turning around and denying he ever knew him should be enough warning to anyone not to make these type of statements.

13 posted on 11/08/2001 9:37:58 AM PST by Brookhaven
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To: untenured
This last sentence summarizes beautifully why this is such a dopey article. Dying for your faith is not independently moral or admirable, but depends entirely on what the higher moral claims of your faith are. There is no morality - none, zero - in dying for the faith of the Taliban, because what the Taliban is fighting for is so execrable.

The problem with calling the article dopey is that the author is not attempting to justify the claims or actions of the Taliban or its teachings. The author is more than anything noting that fundamentalist Islams of that flavour are willing and even eager to die for their professed cause. That you find their actions to have zero (or negative) moral value is irrelevant -- to most of them the cause is righteousness and justice and to them that cause is worth sacrificing their own lives.
I'm not saying that the article is completely accurate, but it is an interesting question. How many devout Christians are willing to die for their beliefs -- not just place their lives at great risk, but to actually willingly sacrifice their lives for the sake of their morality. I'm certainly not referring to flying planes into buildings (I do not know what hypothetical situation might have been imagined by the article's author), but just a situation where a Christian would knowingly accept death because the actions leading to their death were the most "moral" imaginable (given their choices).
I'm not saying that no Christian or even that many Christians would not make such a sacrifice. I do wonder how many would face such a death with the same willingness as Islamic suicide bombers, though all of that is purely speculation: I have no means to guage the genuine willingness or fearlessness of a Christian or an Islamic terroist.

I find the Taliban's version of "morality" and their methods deplorable, but that people are willing and sometimes even eager to die in support of this morality is an interesting gauge of the followers' sincerity.
14 posted on 11/08/2001 9:39:45 AM PST by Dimensio
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To: Docbarleypop
You nailed that good. I do think that the terrorist attacks have back-fired since it has caused formerly disinterested people to take a look at the muslims. What we see is not good and should cause no one to want to convert. BTW, if forced I would die for my Christian faith, I can't imagine joining the muslim idiots. Thanks for your service to our country.
15 posted on 11/08/2001 9:43:20 AM PST by xJones
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To: Malacoda
YES!! To die heroically is easier to do. We often do the heroic without thought for self, almost as an instinct. But to live by one's faith, that takes deliberate, concsious action, perseverance and a willingness to suffer ridicule and persecution. Few have the stomach for it.
16 posted on 11/08/2001 9:44:02 AM PST by KirkandBurke
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To: proud2bRC
ping
17 posted on 11/08/2001 9:44:33 AM PST by Temple Drake
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To: Destructor
I'd like to say I would but I'm probably too much of a coward.
18 posted on 11/08/2001 9:45:50 AM PST by Macaw
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To: Temple Drake
I have taught my children about the English and Irish martyrs and the hideous tortures and deaths they suffered simply for refusing to recant their faith. Far from "giving them a complex" it has helped them understand the serious nature of the stakes in life. I absolutely would die for my faith. I would not "make sacrifice to the gods". However, I am no pacifist. I would kill to defend myself or others. I don't find this article strange and repulsive as some early posters seem to, just food for serious thought.
19 posted on 11/08/2001 9:50:46 AM PST by Temple Drake
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To: Dimensio
Obviously you don't know how many Christian have died for their faith. The number is practically countless.

Also, Atta and others weren't exactly living their "faith", they got wasted on vodka in a bar the night before the bombings. These were nihilists with a grudge against America.

20 posted on 11/08/2001 9:53:20 AM PST by xJones
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