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Posted on 11/09/2001 9:22:54 AM PST by my_pointy_head_is_sharp

Transcript for Wednesday, November 7, 2001

Sarah Eltantawi
Zahir Janmohamed
Ali Hasan
Rali Badissy

Bill: All right, welcome to "Politically Incorrect," and you're here on a very special night. This is a rematch of Bill Maher versus the --

Sarah: Versus the Muslims.

[ Laughter ]

Bill: Versus the American Muslims.

Sarah: The American Muslims.

Bill: You were here about three weeks ago. Let me introduce you, give you your proper introductions. Ali Hasan, a junior from Occidental College.

Ali: Yeah!

[ Applause ]

Zahir: I think he's confused with WWF, perhaps.

Bill: Obviously an American.

Ali: And proud.

Bill: Right, okay. Over, we have -- oh, we switched this around, didn't we? That's Ali Hasan.

Ali: I'm Ali.

Bill: That's right. You're Zahir. Rali Badissy, he's a senior at Occidental College, President of the Muslim Student Association. That leaves you to be, right, Zahir Janmohamed. You are a writer with a graduate degree from UCLA. And, of course, Sarah Eltantawi.

Sarah: Yes.

Bill: Did I say that right? Okay. Activist, communications director for the Muslim Public Affairs Council. Now, when you were here --

[ Applause ]

Yes, give them applause.

[ Applause ]

I know you watch this show. I know you take exception to some of the things I say. We've been having similar arguments with other Muslim-American guests. And I think it really boils down to me saying that you blame everything on American foreign policy, and you're not looking internally enough. Okay. Let me ask you this question. Say things were reversed. Say the Muslims were ascended now. Say they had the power in the world, the power to do whatever they want, 'cause certainly America has that power. If we wanted to drop a bomb on every Muslim and kill them all, we could do that. What would the world be like if right now, the Muslims were in charge?

Sarah: Well, you'd have to throw in economic benefit. You'd have to consider that that part of the world would have resources. It would have adequate standards of living. It would probably have, if it was the most powerful country or land in the world, it would probably have a working political situation.

Bill: So the world would be better?

Sarah: Well --

Bill: For everyone?

Zahir: I can't promise you the world would be better, but I would suggest this, that because so many Muslim nations are suffering from dire poverty and dire political circumstances, Iraq, the sanctions, Palestine, the Israeli genocide, I would like to believe -- I would like to believe that we as Muslims would remember the experiences that our Muslim nations have gone through and be more tolerant. Now, I can't promise that, and I would assure this, that if the tables were flipped, and if Muslims were in a position of power, and if Muslims were acting with the same sort of disrespect that our country, as you said we're Americans, as the United States has been acting, I would be the first to criticize the Muslim nations.

Bill: America is being disrespectful?

Zahir: Exactly.

Rali: In a way, yes, absolutely.

Bill: Because we got mad about that World Trade Center thing?

Zahir: Rightfully so.

Sarah: Bill, you keep complaining on your show. I keep seeing your show, and you say, "Why do you blame us?" Now, first of all, that's a simplistic statement.

Bill: Yes, I'm not the only one.

Sarah: No, of course not. Nobody is blaming America for what happened with September 11th. But if you want to deny that America plays a role in the Middle East --

Bill: We never have. We never have.

Sarah: I suggest you write to your congressman and say, "Hey, take the military out of the Middle East. Stop all foreign aid to the Middle East. Let's stop eating spices. Let's lobby so that we don't have to use petroleum." I mean, if you're going to make these arguments --

Bill: I have made some of those arguments. I think we should stop using petroleum because then we wouldn't be dependent --

[ Applause ]

Sarah: I totally applaud that. That's not what's happening. So let's stop denying that we play a role in what goes on in the Middle East, and an important role and a strong role. Let's face that fact.

Ali: But, Bill, let's get back to that question about if Muslims are ruling the world.

Bill: What would the world be like? What would it be like for the infidels?

Ali: There's a difference between prophet Muhammad, who was a peaceful businessman, and Osama Bin Laden, who is some blood-sucking jerk, all right? Now, if we had a world that was ruled by men like prophet Muhammad, who were good, capitalist men, who believed in charity and believed in business, this would be a good world.

Bill: But we don't, anymore than Christians in this country act like Jesus.

Rali: Historically, Muslim empires, such as the Turkish Empire, have been the most tolerant empires known to mankind. They allowed people of all religions to live within it, to practice their religions. So if you're ever to say, "If the world was ruled by Muslims," historically, they are the most tolerant and the most open to allowing people to act in the way that they wish to live their lives, which we do not do. We force democracy.

Bill: So you think if the world were ruled by Muslims, it would be tolerant. That doesn't seem to be the rhetoric I hear coming out of Saudi Arabia, which is the center of the Muslim world. It doesn't seem to be the rhetoric --

Ali: Well, Saudi Arabia is not the center of my Muslim world. The center of my Muslim world is the Koran.

Sarah: Right.

Sarah: And I don't agree with what's Saudi Arabia's doing as a Muslim.

Bill: Well, then why don't you say that? Why is it always our foreign policy?

[ Talking over each other ]

Bill: Where is the Muslim Chris Rock who will say, "You know what? We gotta take a look at our [ bleep ]."

Sarah: The Muslim Chris Rock --

[ Applause ]

The Muslim Chris Rock --

Zahir: Sarah, if I may. Part of the reason why we're criticizing the United States is because, like you said, you introduced us as American Muslims, I'm owning up to the fact that I was born in this country. I am a product of U.S. schools. And the reason why we're blaming the United States is because it is this nation that is presently bombing Afghanistan. And my influence in this country is greater. If I were in Pakistan right now, then I would be out in the streets protesting Pakistani cooperation.

Bill: But did America start the Iran/Iraq war? Did America invade Kuwait?

Sarah: America funded Iraq to the teeth.

Bill: Did America -- were they responsible for Lebanon?

Sarah: Yes! The answer is yes.

Bill: This silly victimology you have. You are never going to overcome your problems until you --

Sarah: Bill, when Lebanon was invaded by the Israelis, who went in and killed 14,000 innocent Lebanese civilians, this country --

Bill: Okay, Israel invaded Lebanon because terrorists took over that country the way they took over Afghanistan. Arafat and his thugs moved into Lebanon --

Sarah: No.

[ Applause ]

Bill: -- And were bombing Israel, and they had to go in to kick them out. That's why Israel went into Lebanon.

Sarah: Israel, under the terrorist leadership of Mr. Ariel Sharon, went into Lebanon and bombed Beirut. Beirut is quite far away from the border between Lebanon --

Bill: Beirut is where Arafat was stationed.

Sarah: No. That is not --

Bill: The Palestinians took over Lebanon, and the Lebanese were thrilled that the Israelis came in and kicked them out. This nonsense that you are --

Sarah: The 14,000 Lebanese civilians slaughtered by the Israelis were thrilled.

Bill: You know what? The United States and Israel continued to do the dirty work that Muslims wish they could do, for example --

Rali: The dirty work of killing 17,000 Lebanese civilians?

Bill: We do your dirty work for you.

Sarah: Why don't you acknowledge that 17,000 civilians were killed by Israelis, innocent civilians, for an inactive retaliation that could not possibly own up to that kind of response, as the Israelis were doing?

Zahir: If we are waging this war against terrorism, why aren't we referring to someone like Ariel Sharon as a terrorist, when he is the man that orchestrated the massacres of a sovereign state? A number of people were killed. And he's not a terrorist.

[ Light applause ]

Sarah: The man stood on a building with binoculars watching as little children were run over with tanks. I mean, the world sees this. The Arab world sees this. The Muslim world sees it.

Bill: Yes, the Arab world sees it, but what they don't see is everything that preceded that. That is what was blocked out.

Sarah: I'm sorry, Bill, but with all due respect, I find that to be very racist.

Bill: Racist?

Sarah: I really find a lot of your rhetoric to be very much like the white man --

Bill: Again, that's your victimology.

Sarah: -- Sitting here on this table telling us that Arabs don't understand themselves, and they don't understand their own country. And they don't understand what's happening to them. And they don't know that actually the Israelis are really a benevolent force in the Middle East.

Bill: I didn't say that.

Sarah: I mean, who are you to tell people what their experiences are?

Zahir: You know what it reminds me of? When the African nations passed the United Nations resolution saying that Zionism is racism. Now listen to this. An Israeli official was asked in an Israeli newspaper to respond. Instead of responding to the claim that Zionism is racism, he chose to negate the experiences of the Africans saying, "What could a nation of people who have just descended from trees tell us about civilization?" Now, we, as Americans, have dehumanized Arabs. We have dehumanized Afghans just like Israel dehumanized Africa. And what we're doing is we're failing to address the issue. We're saying, "You know what? These Muslims, they don't know what they're doing. These Afghans they don't know what they're doing."

Bill: You talk about dehumanization. There is a large segment of the Muslim religion now that believes in fundamentalism, which calls everyone who is not a Muslim an infidel.

Rali: It's a minority.

[ Talking over each other ]

Bill: Let's not kid ourselves who dehumanizes.

Ali: But, Bill, we can't afford for this to keep going on. As Americans, we gotta go and embrace these people 'cause they're ignorant.

Sarah: I disagree with that.

Ali: They're having these leaders like Saddam Hussein telling them --

[ Talking over each other ]

Rali: Let's be perfectly honest here. There are three countries in the Muslim world, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iraq, which are the oppressive regimes. There are many --

Bill: Oh, yeah, Sudan is a day at the beach. Please, Iran, another day at the beach.

Rali: Iran itself has more women in parliament than America does.

Bill: Try being a homosexual in one of these countries.

Sarah: When Iran, in 1953, elected a democratic leader, we went in with the CIA and overthrew them.

Bill: Yes, you can always point to things that --

Sarah: You're asking why Iran doesn't have a democratic position. I'm telling you they elected one, and we overthrew them. What do you have to say about that?

[ Applause ]

Bill: What I'm saying is that 50 years ago --

Sarah: Keep repeating the same thing.

Bill: That's 50 years ago, and 20 years ago, Iran was overthrown by a much worse person than the Shah.

Sarah: Oh really?

Bill: And that was Ayatollah Khomeini.

Sarah: Ask the Iranians about the Shah. Ask about the political killings in the middle of the night.

Bill: You think Iranians would rather live under Ayatollah Khomeini than the Shah?

Sarah: The popular uprising and the working through their --

Bill: A popular uprising that is maintained by a police state.

Sarah: Do I agree with Iran? No, I do not, but at the same time, let's not deny -- let's just not deny that we don't play a role in what has gone on. I mean, we're Americans. I'm not an Iranian. I'm not an Afghani.

Bill: I'm not saying we didn't play a role. I'm saying that's about 10% of it, and you make it sound like it's the whole picture.

Sarah: It's not 10%.

Bill: You could not do anything to improve the Muslim world because our foot is so far on your throat that you can't improve your own lives.

Sarah: Palestinians can't do anything to improve their own lives because the Israelis' foot is so far on their own throat. I would say that.

Bill: Well, it wouldn't be --

Sarah: That is very much true. If you were living --

Bill: If seven Arab armies hadn't attacked Israel when this state was founded in 1948 --

Zahir: 'Cause they invaded their homeland, Bill.

Bill: Their homeland? Why is Israel not the homeland, too? The Jews were there as long --

Zahir: Because they don't give the Palestinians a home. There has to be a shared peace.

Sarah: If they'd be willing to share Israel with non-Jews.

Bill: 95% of the West Bank was on the table in the Oslo accords, and Yasser Arafat said, "No, thanks."

Sarah: Absolutely not.

Bill: "I'd rather throw rocks."

Zahir: Because he couldn't say yes. He couldn't say yes to that agreement.

Sarah: A percent of the West Bank that was cut off is by Jewish settlements with Jewish-only roads leading to Jewish-only gas stations.

Ali: He didn't say yes 'cause Shimon Peres was marching in our most holiest place in Jerusalem.

Bill: The Palestinians, as someone said, never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I gotta take a break. We'll be back.

[ Applause ]

Bill: Okay, we're back. Let me ask this question, because I think from last show we each left impressions, some of which in the heat of the battle, we didn't say the things correctly we wanted to say. I know sometimes I don't take the time to say, "These are Muslim-Americans." We say "They" when there are -- there's a big difference between you guys and Bin Laden. We all understand that, so I'm sorry for that. Let me tell you that some of the things people said to me about what their impression of was what you said. Some people thought, "Hey, they're not loyal Americans. That they take what's best from this country, our freedom, our prosperity, but their loyalty -- " I think one of you said, is first to Islam, and somebody said to me, "That's not good enough right now." What do you say to that?

Zahir: Okay, I'll respond to that. There's a sort of mantra that George Bush is repeating over and over again, that either you're with us or you're against us. There's another patriotic expression, "My country, right or wrong." And I think this is an unfair dichotomy.

Bill: Two different things.

Rali: Let me continue. I think this is an unfair dichotomy, because as Muslims in this country, we enjoy the freedom. At the same time, we realize that we're owning up to our American identity by saying that we realize that our sphere of influence is now the United States. So I have the ability in this country, given a U.S. education, given opportunity, access to various resources, to use this platform as an opportunity to criticize American policy simply because, if I may say so, I do not believe that this nation is acting to its full capability. We've extended the compassion to the victims of the abominable attacks on September 11th. What I want to see is I want to see this nation also extend compassion to the innocent Afghan women and children. Now remember --

Bill: What about the immediate problem of defeating terrorism? What can you say that you would be prepared to do to be part of the solution? Would you be a spy for this country? We need Muslims now more than ever.

Ali: I'd be a spy.

Bill: You would?

Ali: 'Cause I'm with my country, and I'm against Bin Laden, and I want him taken out.

[ Applause ]

As a matter of fact, I'm sick of him going on there and saying, "Jihad this, Jihad that." I'll declare a Jihad against him 'cause I'm sick of him misrepresenting my religion all the time. It's my religion, and I'm an American, and I want him out. I wanna help the other Muslims, and I'd be a spy, if that's what it took.

Rali: If I may respond to that. You read a book by Primo Levy, and he says that this is exactly what Hitler did in Nazi Germany.

Sarah: That's very true.

Rali: What Hitler did was that Hitler said -- he used Jews to patrol other Jews in the inner cities of Germany. He turned Jews against themselves so that, for Jews, they didn't have an opportunity.

Ali: America's not Hitler, though.

[ Talking over each other ]

Bill: The Jews didn't really burn down the Reichstag, okay? The World Trade Center was really hit by Muslims.

Zahir: By terrorists.

Rali: Exactly.

Bill: Terrorists with a great pool of support in the Muslim world.

Rali: I'll tell you why I'm a loyal American, and I'll tell you quite frankly. My loyalty is that I am willing to sacrifice the respect that I would get going back to Morocco and saying, "Look, I understand that America has done wrongs in the past, but frankly, it's your fault, as well. If you want to have a better future, yes, America has to stop supporting oppressive rulers in the region, but you have to pick yourself up by your pants, get a better job, do some democratic reforms, and then you're gonna have a better life." While America doesn't have to go make life better.

Bill: Now we're agreeing.

[ Applause ]

Rali: Let me point this out. Let me be very clear. While America does not have to have the job of going and making their lives better, it should be not getting in the way. We shouldn't be giving weapons to these regimes which are making their lives worse. So we're not gonna be the police, we shouldn't get in the way, either.

[ Applause ]

Bill: Okay, how many regimes do we give weapons to?

Zahir: Over the past 20 years, I couldn't count them on my hands.

Bill: Really? I could.

[ Applause ]

I could.

Rali: I mean, we funded Saddam Hussein. We funded the Shah. We funded Afghanistan. We funded 20 countless regimes in South America which killed over a million people.

[ Light applause ]

Bill: Okay, you talked about weapons. You said weapons.

Zahir: Not to mention the Taliban just five months ago, right?

Sarah: That's right.

Zahir: According to "The Progressive" magazine, five months ago, George Bush gave the Taliban $43 million. And now they're the face of the enemy. The face of evil.

Rali: And now we're supporting the Northern Alliance, which has as strong a history for being as repressive as the Taliban does. They're not gonna be any better, and we're supporting them right now.

[ Applause ]

Bill: But he just said that he wanted to get rid of Osama Bin Laden so badly, how can you do that without sometimes making bedfellows with people who are not perfect? You live in an imperfect world. It is never a perfect choice.

Zahir: Bill, if I may say so, the way to get rid of Bin Laden, it's like the Columbine massacre. The unjust killings in Columbine, what we did is -- the important lesson of Columbine was to understand why did these students, why were they provoked to such extreme measures? So we started instituting anti-bullying laws in schools, because you tried to analyze for the victims of Columbine, for their sake, to make sure that another Columbine doesn't exist.

Sarah: Bill, there's a practical way of looking at this, too, which is that the reason may be now why it's not the smartest thing to support the Northern Alliance is because we want to get rid of the climate that supports terrorism for our own sake.

Bill: Yes.

Sarah: Okay, so by putting in a repressive regime like the Northern Alliance, which has had a long record of raping and killing people, I don't think that we're really going to improve the playing field. It's not a very long-term strategy.

[ Talking over each other ]

Sarah: People accuse us of being unloyal Americans, and it's hurtful, and frankly it doesn't make much sense to me because I don't know any other country. There is no -- I was taught to be critical because of my American university experience.

Zahir: My home.

[ Applause ]

Sarah: I really feel like it's a contradiction to say that because I'm critical I'm not an American.

Bill: That's not why people asked me that question.

Sarah: I understand.

Bill: It's because they felt that the allegiance was to a religion.

Rali: Just 'cause you're Christian, then you're anti-American, as well? If you're Jewish, are you anti-American? Just because I value my religion doesn't mean I can't value the fact my freedom is in this country.

Bill: But we are not at war against a large part of the Christian or Jewish world, excuse me.

Rali: We're at war with terrorists, Bill, not with Islam.

Sarah: We're not at war with the Muslim world.

Bill: That is naive. Terrorists, who, as I said before, are supported by a great fundamentalist movement that not enough Muslims are contrafuting.

[ Talking over each other ]

Rali: We're contrafuting it on national television. I will tell you right now fundamentalism is a minority in my country, and we are trying to fight it. There are active movements in the Arab world to suppress fundamentalism in every country. And we need to give credit to those movements and support them if we want to see effective change.

[ Light applause ]

Bill: They're speaking awfully softly, though.

Rali: That's why they need our help.

Bill: I have to take a commercial. Yes, they do.

[ Applause ]

Bill: All right, we only have a few minutes, but I did want to bring this up. 'Cause Salman Rushdie -- you remember Salman Rushdie? If you don't know, he wrote a book called --

Ali: He's my uncle.

Bill: He is?

Ali: No, I'm kidding.

[ Light laughter ]

Bill: He wrote a book called "The Satanic Verses" about 12 years ago, which got mixed reviews. "The New York Times" called it a fanciful flight of imagination. The Ayatollah Khomeini called it a duty for all Muslims to kill the author, so it was mixed.

[ Laughter ]

And he wrote this article in "The New York Times" the other day called "Yes, this is about Islam." And this is one of the smartest guys I've ever thought about. And he says, "You know, of course this is about Islam." He says, "This idea that we are," as you were saying, "It's just a few terrorists is ridiculous." And he goes on to say some of the things we were talking about before. Now, what do you say to Mr. Rushdie? Wouldn't he have the credentials to --

Rali: I think he has to recognize that these terrorists, although they were Muslims, lived in countries where they are economically impoverished, and they're desperate. And that's why they were willing to commit suicide.

Bill: The hijackers were neither.

[ Talking over each other ]

Zahir: Let me give you an example of Baruch Goldstein, a Jewish, radical Jew, who marched into a mosque in 1995, I believe it was --

Sarah: '94.

Zahir: '94, excuse me, and killing 50 Muslims in prayer. Now, he did so in the name of Judaism. But now notice two things did not happen after it. One, Jews in America were not put in the same sort of position that Muslims are being put to sort of -- I mean, imagine --

Sarah: Defend their faith against fundamentalism.

Zahir: Exactly.

Bill: You're talking about an isolated incident versus a huge pattern.

[ Talking over each other ]

Ali: But the Ayatollah doesn't have the power to begin with to issue a fatwa, and to say we need to kill Salman Rushdie. He doesn't have that power.

Bill: Who doesn't?

Ali: The Ayatollah doesn't have that power.

Bill: Tell that to Salman Rushdie. He has to sleep in a different bed every night for ten years.

Sarah: It's a horrible thing. And I read his article. And he's predicating his argument on this idea that it's Islam because Muslim people are out on the streets protesting. Well, Muslim people is something different from the ideology of Islam. And on your show, night after night, you come out and you quote the same thing from the Koran, and you say that this line is a justification, that Muslims are reading this line and they're going out in the streets and taking up arms. I think that that sort of trying to read the text and come up with a huge justification for why these people are doing what they're doing is totally incorrect.

[ Talking over each other ]

Bill: I only quoted the Koran once.

Ali: And you didn't even bring the Koran out.

Bill: I did.

Ali: No, you didn't. You need to read the rest of the paragraph.

Bill: Everyone says it's context.

Ali: You do.

[ Applause ]

Ali: Because you said it says, "Kill all infidels," but it says make peace.

Bill: No one has yet explained to me the context of "Kill the infidels."

Ali: You need to read the rest of it, buddy.

Bill: I don't know what context --

Sarah: Bill, it smacks of the years of -- centuries of persecution of Jews.

Bill: It sure does.

Sarah: And their ideas about the Gentiles and about the, you know, treating Gentiles like this, and Gentiles are less than dogs.

Bill: Okay, I gotta take another commercial. Sorry.

[ Applause ]

Bill: All right, I just want to say you guys are terrific. Thank you for doing this.

Sarah: Thank you.

Bill: I think this helps. I hope people think it does, and I say, as common to several languages, "Shalom."

[ Applause ]

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