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Slippery Arguments: Why Freedom Ain't Everything
NRO ^ | 11/26/01 | Jonah Goldberg

Posted on 11/27/2001 4:24:05 AM PST by walden

I'll give you women and blacks. But you can't be serious about white men."

This was just one of the scores of dissenting e-mails I received over Thanksgiving weekend in response to last Wednesday's column. I wrote, "From the moment the Declaration of Independence was signed to the moment you eat your turkey dinner on Thanksgiving Day 2001, Americans have become more, not less free. Maybe not on a month-to-month basis but the trendline is undeniable."

I knew this would be a controversial proposition among some loyal readers, but I wasn't quite prepared for the assault. And since it looks like we're going to be having a great big fun fight over slippery slopes and civil liberties over the next few weeks, I thought I'd take another whack at the topic.

Climbing the Slippery Slope
First off, let's be clear about something. When it comes to civil liberties, slippery-slope arguments are largely incompatible with THE PREVAILING historical arguments. Because I am a dork I often listen to NPR on my walkman while I "walk" Cosmo. If it helps, think of it as eavesdropping on enemy radio broadcasts.

Anyway, it seems that nary a program can conclude without someone comparing some measure by the Bush administration — military tribunals, roving wiretaps, etc. — to other alleged civil-liberties transgressions of yore and arguing that these measures constitute a major step down a slippery slope. They'll yammer on about, say, the Palmer Raids or the Alien and Sedition Acts or about America's terrible record on wartime civil liberties generally and then seamlessly elide into an argument about the camel's nose poking under the tent, being on the thin edge of some wedge, giving an inch and losing a mile or some other greased-incline cliché (sorry, but I grow weary of typing "slippery slope").

There's a hitch though. You can't argue, for example, that the internment of the Japanese put us on a slippery slope; or at least you can't argue it was very slippery or particularly steep. For the last five decades the tide of the law and the culture has been pulling us in the opposite direction. Indeed, even though the argument for interning Arab Americans (or Arab aliens) is probably not much better or much worse than the arguments for rounding up the Japanese were, it is inconceivable that America would do anything of the sort today.

For all of the screeching about the thousand or so people being held in custody since September 11, there's no way you can compare it to the internment of the Japanese. If we were interning Arab or Muslim Americans there'd be millions of people in camps. Instead, "only" .0001% of that population is being held by the feds — and that's because they've all committed a crime of some kind, or, in one or two instances, are material witnesses to a crime.

Feel free to denounce the internment of the Japanese — I do. But, you cannot argue that it set a precedent for other such transgressions. If it set any precedent at all it set trends in the opposite direction. In 1988, the United States Congress formally apologized for the internment and appropriated money to compensate the 60,000 survivors.

The same thing holds true for pretty much every such civil-liberties "outrage" in American history. Habeas corpus was reinstated after the Civil War and, over the next century and a half, became an even stricter legal standard. After all of the revelations of the 1960s and 1970s vis-à-vis wiretaps, secret files, etc., Congress made it more, not less, difficult to abuse the civil rights of citizens. "If Bush has not gone even further in cracking down on terrorism," writes Charles Lane in the Washington Post, "it is because he is constrained by a legal and political culture far more favorable toward civil liberties than anything Lincoln, Wilson or FDR could have imagined."

This exposes the main problem with slippery-slope arguments. Much like conspiracy theories, they reflect more imagination and less hard thinking than usually required. When we go "too far" one way, we are more likely to swing back the other way than to keep sliding in the wrong direction. It's called the law of unintended consequences.

FDR may have been right or wrong WHEN HE USED military tribunal for icing a few Nazi spies, but that's a stand-alone argument; it didn't launch any long-term authoritarian trend. And, barring some argument I've yet to hear from William Safire, Wes Pruden, the Cato Institute, or any of the other anti-tribunal crowd, there's little evidence that using a tribunal on Osama Bin Laden would be any different.

So, if you're going to denounce the administration's proposed military tribunals, that's perfectly legitimate. But please bring something more to the table than a slippery-slope argument — because we've been sliding uphill for more than two centuries.

Freedom v. Liberty
But let's get back to the more interesting topic: Are we actually more free? And, is that a good thing? Well, yes and no. Many readers — with widely varying degrees of civility — pointed to all sorts of things that make us less free. We pay almost half and, in some cases, more than half, of our income to one government or another. The Feds meddle in all sorts of things that aren't their business. "Tell the Boy Scouts we're more free," wrote a couple of folks.

These are good points. And I agree with them, for the most part. But even if you add up all of the petty, arbitrary, stupid, and sometimes Herculean intrusions of the federal government into our daily lives, they hardly outweigh the gains in personal and material freedom over the last two centuries. In my own defense, I was very clear in Wednesday's column to point out that technological and material advances must be added to the scales, along with civil liberties when measuring the progress of freedom. And, taking this into account, it is nigh upon impossible to argue that even white males were more free in the United States 200 years ago than they are today. Oh sure, maybe if you pointed to Thomas Jefferson or George Washington or a comparative handful of rich white guys, you could say they were more free than the average white guy today. But they weren't more free than, say, Bill Gates is today.

Technology is essential to securing the relief of man's estate, as Francis Bacon put it. It makes us healthier; it makes us feel better. It makes us more mobile. It frees us from the backbreaking demands of the land and of simple survival. Whatever you think of the birth-control pill or women's liberation, you cannot dispute that the birth-control pill did more to "liberate" women from traditional obligations than any essay by Gloria Steinem.

Technology allows us to pursue our personal interests in ways that would be impossible without it, from being able to read the Bible at night to being able to watch funky porn over the internet. The rights to travel, to read, to do as you wish are meaningless on a personal level if you do not have the means or the health to exercise them.

And the United States has done more to disseminate the benefits of technology to its own citizens and the citizens of other nations than any other country in the history of man. This is no trivial thing and it is no accident. Indeed, the only time the word "right" appears in the original U.S. Constitution — not counting the Bill of Rights — is in the clause empowering Congress "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries…"

The more interesting — and more pertinent — question is not whether we are more or less free, but whether we are too free. Think about it: Most of the intrusions by the federal government aren't on individual liberty so much as on group liberty. Today we no longer recognize the freedom of institutions to limit the freedom of individuals. The Boy Scouts, for example, are less free because gays have become more free.

It's these trade-offs which disturb me a lot more than the trade-offs between security and individual liberty. When we temporarily sacrifice a thimbleful of individual freedom at the airports or via military tribunals, it is in order to purchase the continued freedom of the whole society. That's a no-brainer to me.

But the inability of communities and institutions to compensate for the explosion of personal freedom is more worrisome. Irving Kristol once pointed out that, thanks to liberalism, we don't care about a 19-year-old girl becoming a stripper — so long as she makes the minimum wage. Personally, I wish we could live in a society which allowed local institutions and communities to limit that kind of freedom a bit more. After all, if you don't want to live in a town that has a problem with strippers — you can always move. That's the great thing about technology.


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Interesting perspective on the true meaning of liberty.
1 posted on 11/27/2001 4:24:05 AM PST by walden
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To: walden
Good find. If we were to return to the Constitution of the Founders, our personal liberty would be curtailed... along with the Governments. Most of the complaints are with the increasesd rights of government, not the increased rights of individuals.
2 posted on 11/27/2001 4:32:14 AM PST by beekeeper
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To: beekeeper
Most of the complaints are with the increasesd rights of government

"Government" can no more have rights than "society" can. Rights are only applicable to that which can be help accountable. In other words, only individuals have rights.

And no, were we to return to the days of the founders, we as individuals would have more freedom, not less. We might have less conveniences, but we would be more free.

---max

3 posted on 11/27/2001 4:36:38 AM PST by max61
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To: walden
Jonah, whom I used to enjoy reading, has become irrelevant. The entire premise that we are more free because of technology is plain silly. We are not more free now than we were 225 years ago. Has he tried to purchase a firearm? Perhaps he may not agree with the idea of prostitution, but folks were free to engage in that back then. I believe his thinking fails when he begins to think that "social stigma" and "rule of law" are interchangeable. Here is a freedom question for you Jonah:

You have invented an intoxicating substance. It is non-addictive, gives you the happiest feeling in the world and comes with an insta-dote that will remove the effects of the substance immediately (sober) and has no long term effects. Does this substance ever become legal?

4 posted on 11/27/2001 4:37:16 AM PST by francisandbeans
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To: walden
I do not understand why Goldberg doesn't even challenge the premise behind the argument in the first paragraph. Need I have to remind anyone that blacks and women are people too? sheesh! They are part of the We and We have seen greater progress. In addition we have witnessed the decline of several empires including the British and Ottaman empires. We have defeated Nazism and the Soviet Union. And as we remove oppressive regimes from the face of the earth, we create new opportunities for Americans to pursue trade and leisure by creating new treaties and alliances
5 posted on 11/27/2001 4:45:50 AM PST by arielb
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To: walden
Today we no longer recognize the freedom of institutions to limit the freedom of individuals

I never knew that there was a "freedom to be a nosy busybody".

When we temporarily sacrifice a thimbleful of individual freedom at the airports or via military tribunals, it is in order to purchase the continued freedom of the whole society

So, you think it's "temporary", do you? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! And you think taking fingernail clippers away from little old ladies makes you safer? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA gotta stop for breath...

6 posted on 11/27/2001 4:54:32 AM PST by alpowolf
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To: francisandbeans
"You have invented an intoxicating substance. It is non-addictive, gives you the happiest feeling in the world and comes with an insta-dote that will remove the effects of the substance immediately (sober) and has no long term effects. Does this substance ever become legal?"

Actually, it starts out legal, and remains that way until legal efforts are started by someone to outlaw it. As long as you make no health claims for it, you can market it as an unregulated dietary supplement. Of course, there are those who will want to regulate it simply under the philosophy that ANY intoxicating substance is bad-- there are people who would like to see alcohol outlawed for that reason-- but society mostly ignores those folks.

7 posted on 11/27/2001 5:14:29 AM PST by walden
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To: arielb
"I do not understand why Goldberg doesn't even challenge the premise behind the argument in the first paragraph. Need I have to remind anyone that blacks and women are people too? sheesh! They are part of the We and We have seen greater progress. "

I think he doesn't challenge it because everyone accepts it as self-evident.

8 posted on 11/27/2001 5:15:56 AM PST by walden
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To: walden
"Technology is essential to securing the relief of man's estate,"

MAYBE so.
(A lot of people are quite happy with minimal technology in their lives, not everyone finds technology "essential".)
But "relief of man's estate" is NOT freedom or liberty.
Which is exacty what he is trying to say.

"...the United States has done more to disseminate the benefits of technology..."

I have news for him.
The United States CITIZENS are the ones that develop and disseminate technology, not the government.
Modern technology has not developed because of the fed, but rather, in spite of it.
What is the biggest barrier to opening a new business today?
Taxes and government regulation.

"Most of the intrusions by the federal government aren't on individual liberty so much as on group liberty."

Wrong again. One good example is the Patriot act that just passed.
Besides, intrusion on group liberty is, by definition, intrusion on the liberty of the individuals that make up that group.

"Personally, I wish we could live in a society which allowed local institutions and communities to limit that kind of freedom a bit more."

Personally, I wish he (and people who think like him) would MOVE to a society that allowed institutions and communities to limit freedom a bit more.
I wish they had done so a LONG time ago...because they are successfully turning our free productive society into just such a place.
And I can see how well THAT has worked out in all too many places around the world.
9 posted on 11/27/2001 6:29:50 AM PST by freefly
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: MRAR15Guy56
How come people who are paranoid about their civil liberties rarely have any personal information on their profile pages?

Next question, if American civil liberties have been so terribly trampled, how come nobody I know knows anyone in the gulag? How come the worst case of persecution "60 Minutes" can find is a middle eastern boy scout leader who was detained for questioning for a WHOLE HOUR, because he was dressed in camouflage and talking on a walkie talkie?

I actually don't mind the hysteria, though-- it's proof enough to me that freedom of expression is alive and well in the U.S.A.. In fact, the mere fact that Patrick Leahy is still walking around is testimony to the essential weakness of the executive branch!

11 posted on 11/27/2001 7:25:08 AM PST by walden
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To: walden
How come people who are paranoid about their civil liberties rarely have any personal information on their profile pages?

Because they know people like you check there first for "incriminating" information.

In fact, the mere fact that Patrick Leahy is still walking around is testimony to the essential weakness of the executive branch!

You are advocating assassination? Selective targeting of government officials? What? He's already gotten an anthrax letter. That's not enough for you?

And you wonder why people don't want to hand over their civil liberties to people like you. Pathetic.

12 posted on 11/27/2001 7:50:08 AM PST by JamesinGA
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To: JamesinGA
"You are advocating assassination? Selective targeting of government officials? What? He's already gotten an anthrax letter. That's not enough for you?

And you wonder why people don't want to hand over their civil liberties to people like you. Pathetic."

The first thing a paranoid loses is his sense of humor-- all other defects of character stem from that basic flaw. Lighten up, bozo. Or else, I'll instruct my contacts in the REAL GOVERNMENT (the one you see is NOT the real government, you know) to COME GET YOU.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you, you know. Even paranoids have enemies. :)

13 posted on 11/27/2001 7:55:18 AM PST by walden
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To: walden
OK, you got me. More proof that sarcasm doesn't translate to the print environment. But ya know, when you get so darn humorous that you convince people you're nuts, when do you stop becoming funny and just become nuts? Discuss amongst yourselves.
14 posted on 11/27/2001 8:05:21 AM PST by JamesinGA
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To: JamesinGA
"But ya know, when you get so darn humorous that you convince people you're nuts, when do you stop becoming funny and just become nuts? Discuss amongst yourselves."

I'm discussing, but I'm not answering! Oh, no! :)
Tone of voice IS really hard to hear in print-- I'll have to pay more attention to how the pros do it, and see if I can't get better.

15 posted on 11/27/2001 8:13:13 AM PST by walden
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To: beekeeper; walden
Well, I would say that you've confused the concept of rights and hence do not understand freedom.

This quote by the author "Most of the intrusions by the federal government aren't on individual liberty so much as on group liberty. Today we no longer recognize the freedom of institutions to limit the freedom of individuals. The Boy Scouts, for example, are less free because gays have become more free."

Rights do not mean the same thing in the Constitution as they do in common parlance. A right, constitutionally speaking, is available to all individuals, is capable of being guaranteed by government, and can be asserted by an individual at will. Groups do not have rights, because this would imply the group has rights that individuals do not have. To say this in another way, individuals only have rights, and not groups, because saying that a group has rights (and thereby implying that the individual does not) means that the sum is greater than the parts. This makes no sense.

Governments do not have rights. The role of government is to guarantee the rights of each individual, the rights the the supreme law of the land says that each individual has (and the founders did not assert that government grants these rights, it asserts that man naturally has these rights, from God, and that government was to guarantee them - not create more, and not infringe on the existing ones.

Hence, I say that the above terms "group liberty" and "freedom of institutions" are meaningless. This is why the author's assertions do not hold water.

16 posted on 11/27/2001 6:22:11 PM PST by missileboy
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To: missileboy
The author is misled or was drunk at the time of the writ.
17 posted on 11/27/2001 6:24:47 PM PST by Righter-than-Rush
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To: missileboy
Well,missileboy, you certainly make your point that the author is full of it-- I mean, after all, you picked the heck out of those last two paragraphs, didn't you? Done deal.

Or, maybe not. You can certainly disagree with the definition of what a "right" is-- after all, that is probably the central problem intellectuals today face. You can disagree with whether or not groups can have "rights", or even "freedom". In fact, we can argue over what the meaning of "is" is all day long, but wouldn't that catapult us back into the last administration? I don't want to go there.

So, we can look at the major premise of the article and go from there: adding all factors in-- political, economic, social-- are people more free today than at any time in the last two hundred years? Judging from my personal circumstances, I have to say YES. Your mileage may vary, but I would urge you to think about it. If you don't have enough knowledge of history to deal with the question straight up, then acquire it. But don't pick semantics with me-- it's both annoying and boring.

18 posted on 11/27/2001 9:50:22 PM PST by walden
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To: missileboy
You may disagree with the definition I use of rights, but they are what the government has, through law, brought to itself. States Rights is an example, which a war was fought over. The term may be incorrect in your definition, but well understood by most, especially if you live in the South.
19 posted on 11/28/2001 3:16:03 AM PST by beekeeper
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To: walden
BUMP
20 posted on 11/28/2001 7:05:27 AM PST by Aurelius
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