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Annie, Get Which Gun
Weekly Standard ^ | 14 Dec 2001 | Bo Crader

Posted on 12/14/2001 7:48:04 AM PST by white trash redneck

Annie, Get Which Gun?
The M-16 versus AK-47 debate rages on. Experts step in to set the record straight.
by Bo Crader
12/14/2001 12:01:00 AM


Bo Crader, editorial assistant

MY RECENT ARTICLE comparing the AK-47 to the M-16 has elicited a substantial number of personal anecdotes, expert opinions, and gun-nut testimonials. Readers seem split when it comes to which assault rifle they prefer. One Vietnam vet suggests he's been spoiled by the M-16 and finds the AK-47 "unpleasantly sloppy to shoot," while an Army captain says the "M-16 is the biggest piece of junk ever foisted on the American soldier." One 26-year military policeman would "rather carry a good AK-47 than an M-16 any day of the week," while an Air Force Lieutenant Colonel writes that he would "take the M-16, hands down."

So, which is the superior infantry rifle? I've sorted through reader mail, read countless government reports, and traded war stories with a couple of old grunts in an attempt to clear up some disputes and answer the question once and for all.

One writer, an Army attorney and critic of the M-16, argues that only Annie Oakley could engage targets at 500 yards with an M-16. Not quite: Marine recruits at Parris Island train with the M-16 by firing on human-sized targets at 500 yards. The range advantage afforded by the M-16 is ideal for troops on the defensive with large, open killing zones. "In the mountains and the sparse open terrain that covers much of Afghanistan," writes Terry Gander in the upcoming edition of Jane's Infantry Weapons, "extended effective ranges are almost certain to be demonstrated as more important" than any other consideration.

At the same time, Frank Hanner, director of the National Infantry Museum at Fort Benning, Georgia, suggests the value of the M-16's half-kilometer range might be overrated. "Most combat generally takes place between 100 and 400 meters," Hanner reports. "Unless you're in the mountains," he suggests, "the M-16's additional range doesn't pay off."

Other writers took issue with the M-16's stopping power, many citing an episode in Mark Bowden's "Black Hawk Down" as evidence that the M-16 is, in fact, a pea-shooter. "Black Hawk Down" recounts the story of American troops in Somalia in 1993 surrounded by a numerically-superior force of AK-47-wielding guerrillas. Sergeant First Class Paul Howe, armed with the CAR-15, a 5.56mm infantry rifle similar to the M-16, notes that a number of Somalis, after being hit center mass, simply got back up to continue fighting. "It was like sticking somebody with an ice pick," Howe said. "The bullet made a small, clean hole, and unless it happened to hit the heart or spine, it wasn't enough to stop a man in his tracks."

This nightmarish situation--hitting the enemy dead center only to have him get back up--is explained largely by Howe's ammunition, according to William Atwater, director of the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum and a technical adviser to Bowden on "Black Hawk Down." The ammunition used by Howe has a "green-tipped tungsten carbide penetrator," Atwater explains. These specialized rounds are "heavier than normal rounds, much more stable, and designed for penetrating steel helmets or going through flak jackets at 500 yards." Alan Killinger, a museum specialist also at the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum, elaborates in grim detail: Standard M-16 ammunition "enters the body and stands up, turns on its side, rips through flesh and organs," and tears a gaping exit wound. Green-tipped rounds, because they have a more stable flight, generally won't tumble inside the body at distances of less than 300 yards.

Even with the green-tipped rounds, Atwater argues the stopping power of the M-16 should be more than adequate. "Many of the Somalis were hopped up on drugs" and didn't immediately succumb to their wounds, Atwater continues. "But they eventually went down--we're talking about getting up and taking a couple steps--before they died from internal bleeding."

Another common complaint about the M-16 is its reliability. A reader "who's had to hump everything from the M-16 to the M-203 to the M-60" notes the weapon's "low reliability" and says that "the advantages of an M-16 are moot if it stops firing because it's dusty or muddy." Another soldier calls the M-16 "a finicky weapon [that] hates the dirt and must be treated with care." Quite true. The small tolerances that give the M-16 its range, accuracy, low recoil, and handy ergonomics also tend to clog with dirt and mud. Referring to the M-16's notorious reliability problems in Vietnam, Atwater explains that "the M-16 was deployed without proper testing. Troops were given low-grade ammunition [that] fouled the chamber and firing mechanism." Moreover, the M-16 was "rumored to be self-cleaning . . . troops didn't have cleaning gear or proper instruction in maintenance."

Since Vietnam, however, new versions of both the M-16 and its ammunition have been introduced that have corrected such mechanical problems. "I don't know of any problems now," Atwater explains. Heasley insists "the M-16's reliability is as good as the soldier who takes care of it."

It does sound like an annoyance. "In Afghanistan, Marines clean their M-16s three times a day because the dust is so fine," Killinger says. Almost in the same breath, however, he adds that with the latest M-16s, weapon maintenance is "not that big of a deal. If you keep your weapon clean it will work for you."

Did American troops in Vietnam prefer the Soviet-made AK-47s to their own recently-issued M-16s, as I wrote? A number of readers say such stories are urban--er, tropical--legends. Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Sterling Price says "the Vietnam example of ditching M-16s for AK-47s" was "true. . . [but] temporary" once early problems with the weapon were resolved. Another reader, Gary Owen, says such weapon-swapping would be suicidal in the field: Because the two weapons make distinctive sounds, "shooting an AK-47 might draw fire from [U.S.] troops." Another Vietnam veteran concurs: "If you were in a firefight in the bush and heard an AK go off nearby, you shot at that position."

"By 1969 or 1970," Atwater adds, "shooting an AK-47 [in a firefight] was disobeying a direct order and grounds for court-martial." So it is safe to say that regardless of the M-16's initial performance any rifle-swapping was short-lived, so to speak.

So, which is the superior weapon for the lance corporal fire-rushing Tora Bora?

Eugene Stoner, designer of the M-16, reportedly admitted to Mikhail Kalashnikov, namesake of the AK-47, that "your gun is more reliable than mine. It's simpler." Was Stoner throwing in the towel? Maybe. But he might have just felt sorry for the poor Russian. After a reported 40 to 50 million AK-47s were produced and distributed worldwide, all he saw was a modest government pension and a 150,000 ruble (read: paltry) award, while Stoner went on to become a multi-millionaire. Kalashnikov certainly had reason to be bitter.

Heasley's verdict: "In my opinion the M-16 in the hands of a well trained soldier is a more effective weapon than the AK-47, which is designed for the less sophisticated 'soldier.' "

"The M-16 is a super-accurate rifle," explains Steve Shriner, a spokesman for Soldier of Fortune magazine. "It's a superior weapon for sighting and accuracy. [It] dominates firefights, but, in combat, it's six one way and half a dozen the other." Point well taken. Choosing a weapon is a luxury few can afford when Charlie's gotten through the wire or Osama bin Laden's head pops into your field of fire.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: banglist
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The great AK47 vs M16/AR15 debate rages on...
1 posted on 12/14/2001 7:48:04 AM PST by white trash redneck
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To: anniegetyourgun
FYI
2 posted on 12/14/2001 7:52:33 AM PST by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: *bang_list
bang
3 posted on 12/14/2001 7:54:30 AM PST by coloradan
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To: white trash redneck
a number of Somalis, after being hit center mass, simply got back up to continue fighting. "It was like sticking somebody with an ice pick," Howe said. "The bullet made a small, clean hole, and unless it happened to hit the heart or spine, it wasn't enough to stop a man in his tracks."

That's why you get the 45 grain JHP high velocity "varmint" rounds.

4 posted on 12/14/2001 8:01:27 AM PST by George Smiley
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To: white trash redneck
If you frequent high power matches such as Camp Perry, you will not see any AKs in the money, AR15s are pretty much the money winners in the service classes with an occasional M14 still sneaking in. Infact I have yet to see an AK score above a 90% rating in HP.
5 posted on 12/14/2001 8:02:20 AM PST by SirFishalot
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To: coloradan
bang for which should become a good discussion on this thread
6 posted on 12/14/2001 8:04:42 AM PST by JeepInMazar
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To: white trash redneck
Disassemble and reassemble one of each in the dark...then get back to me.
7 posted on 12/14/2001 8:07:13 AM PST by gundog
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To: SirFishalot
Those matches do not take place in the swamp though, friend.
8 posted on 12/14/2001 8:09:21 AM PST by WALLACE212
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To: gundog
ditto
9 posted on 12/14/2001 8:10:13 AM PST by WALLACE212
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To: WALLACE212; SirFishalot
Different strokes for different folks. The M16/AR15 is a more accurate rifle, but more finicky. The AK has a simpler mechanism but looser tolerances and less accuracy. I've never seen an AK on a HP firing line, and I'm amazed to see a score even as high as you cited. I'm curious if you know whether that shooter had had his AK tricked out by a smith, or whether it was stock.
10 posted on 12/14/2001 8:13:45 AM PST by white trash redneck
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To: white trash redneck
Let's see...hmmm...

1. Bulgarian/perfectly reliable
2. Romanian/perfectly reliable
3. Egyptian/perfectly reliable

Such elegant simplicity and ruggedness of design.
I guess you can figure out my personal preference ;)

11 posted on 12/14/2001 8:14:54 AM PST by Sender
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To: Sender
Hey, I've gotta question. My buddy has a Romanian AK which had screws on the left side of the receiver to mount a scope. My Egyptian AK does not have these. Is there a way to get a scope onto my gun without having a smith work on it?
12 posted on 12/14/2001 8:19:07 AM PST by white trash redneck
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To: white trash redneck
Yes. You can order the scope rail kit from Kalashnikov USA or K-var or Global Trades or numerous other sources, complete with special blind screws and a handy drilling template. It's easy to do and legal. You put the blind hex-head screws in from the inside of the receiver and they end up flush and invisible.
13 posted on 12/14/2001 8:35:21 AM PST by Sender
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To: white trash redneck
2 cents in.

Back in what now seems the cowboys and indian days I was a SF medic. We used to shoot goats in the leg with a variety of weapons to see what they did to the muscle/bone, entrance/exit. You do not want to be shot by a 5.56.

On the otherside, the AK could never be cleaned, or so it seemed, and funtion fine. I wouldn't mind either, but I'd take the 16.

14 posted on 12/14/2001 8:35:54 AM PST by Leisler
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To: white trash redneck
Answer: Whichever one rips into Osama's chest first.
15 posted on 12/14/2001 8:42:16 AM PST by Made In The USA
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To: white trash redneck
Buy an AK, feed a commie. Buy an AR-15, feed an American. 'nuf said?
16 posted on 12/14/2001 8:48:18 AM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: white trash redneck
I've never seen an AK on a HP firing line, and I'm amazed to see a score even as high as you cited.

Probably the most accurate Eastern Bloc AK-47 ever imported into the US was the Bulgarian SA-93, which had a heavy barrel manufactured on Steyr machinery and a milled receiver (the predecessor of the very fine SLR-95). While only a handful of SA-93s were imported into the US, with Lapua or Norma match ammo the average precision of a given SA-93 was 1.0+/-0.2 MOA by most accounts (including my own). While not exactly stunning accuracy for an AR15/M16, it is quite serviceable at shorter ranges. Obviously, the very poor BC of 7.62x39 bullets precludes good long range performance.

17 posted on 12/14/2001 8:51:13 AM PST by tortoise
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To: white trash redneck
If you go back to the beginning of it's development, the M-16 killed troops. That is a fact that some Viet Nam veterans won't forget. The wrong bullet and powder caused stoppages and poor performance that should have taken it off the line immediately. 35 years later, The M-16 changed into the finest battle weapon in history.
18 posted on 12/14/2001 8:51:29 AM PST by Shooter 2.5
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To: white trash redneck
I've got both. Which one I use depends on what I'm doing, and what the conditions are. You can bet that I'm not going to throw my AR in the back of the truck to bump around and scuff the finish.

/john

19 posted on 12/14/2001 8:55:01 AM PST by JRandomFreeper
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To: George Smiley
No, that would be even less effective. Its well known that
after about 2500fps the 5.56 loses its immense wounding
capabilty. That is, where the wound channel is greatest due
to fragmentation. Our guys in Somalia were using M4s which
put them at a disadvantage right away. A round popped
out of an M4 decelerates to less than 2500fps w/i 100m.

I agree with the conclusion at the end of the article.
The commies have a completely different doctrine which
is reflected in the design and use of their military h/w.
20 posted on 12/14/2001 9:04:33 AM PST by 556x45
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