But you said I should help others because I want to out of love and now you are saying that I should do these things to avoid paying a price which I am assuming is a punishment. If I want to help people and get pleasure from it why does that require a belief in God?
I think the problem is we have different definitions of what selfless means. So let me be precise and say that when I help someone the joy I receive for doing that is my reward. My kindness is a payment for the pleasure I take and the admiration I feel for another. It is not a sacrifice. It is in my self interest to it. We don’t disagree on this but where we disagree is in calling it moral. Giving is no more moral than spending on yourself. When it is seen as moral to produce a value and give it away but immoral to produce a value and keep it for yourself that is what what I consider to be unspeakably evil. Altruism means literally to live for others and not the self. It is not merely kindness.
Religion preaches that selflessness is a virtue. I think it is anti life.
I don’t know how you could have possibly gotten from my comments that I support Socialism. I am the arch enemy of socialism. I am for complete, unregulated laizzes faire capitalism. I said that there is no rational justification for Socialism and that is why I find so many atheists to be hypocrites. I choose to be consistent and only hold beliefs for which there is rational justification.
Capitalism is the only moral system and it is incompatible with the morality of self sacrifice. Capitalism is about the achievement of values not their sacrifice.
What’s wrong with having an interest in helping others? Why must giving be selfless? This is what I don’t understand. When I help someone it is always in my interest to do so and the joy I get from it is what I get in return. I don’t believe in self sacrifice. I’m planning to help a family right now to raise money to send their autistic child to a special school. It is my joy and pleasure to do so but it must never be my moral obligation to do so. That is what you don’t get and the premise that turns man into a sacrificial animal. I hold that man should have self esteem.
What I disagree with is when helping others becomes a moral duty. There is nothing wrong with helping others and it right and proper to do so if it is in your interest to do it. But when it becomes a moral virtue to live for the sake of others then it becomes a vice to live for your own sake. That is the lethal premise and it is the only premise which can be used to justify Socialism and egalitarianism. Without it these things are unjustifiable so it is hypocritical to preach this principle and then to be against socialism. A moral code that requires self abnegation and self sacrifice is incompatible with Capitalism. The Pope agrees with me by the way and he himself calls for central control of the economy which is socialism.
I have noticed that a lot of atheists are leftists and they hold these ideas without rational justification when that is the very same reason they don’t believe in God. I choose to be consistent and not hold unjustifiable beliefs. I don’t expect you to agree with me, I’m just expressing my thoughts.
This is very true that most atheists are leftists and I can’t understand why. They rightly reject a belief in god based on a lack of rational justification but they accept the idea that we are our brothers keeper without any rational justification. They embrace welfare statism and egalitarianism when there is no rational justification for them. They reject the belief in God but accept the altruism preached by religion. That is why I don’t belong to any atheist organizations and won’t. I find an equally strange dichotomy with religious conservatives. They are pro capitalism and individual rights and are against welfare statism and egalitarianism but they embrace the altruist morality that they are based on and that their religion promotes and which is incompatible with capitalism IMO.
And yes we conservative atheists are very rare eggs in my experience.
Rights come from the law of identity. Whether or not man was created by a god or is the result of eternal natural laws it does not make a difference. The founding fathers got it right when they said inalienable rights. Rights are absolutes and if men are to live together then each man must hold them as absolutes so that is why men have a right to life. All other rights come after that one or there is no point to rights.
In my opinion the founders made an error when they tied rights to a creator but it is still irrelevant because inalienable means unable to be separated from which means rights are intrinsic to man and primary to the question of who created the universe. They are what they are regardless.
That is utter nonsense. Man has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness whether he was created by a god or not. I am an atheist and you would be hard pressed to find anyone more conservative. I believe in a strong, objective moral code and I can tell you why without saying because god says so. Conservative principle have their root in a belief in limited government, individual rights, capitalism and personal responsibility. No belief in gods is needed for those.
Read The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. There is an easy to understand explanation in the book. It happened a long time before Humans came around so our ancestors already had two sexes. Many animals still reproduce asexually, I’m glad we’re not one of them.
That’s interesting. I never once spoke of atheism until someone went looking through my posting history because they didn’t want to answer legitimate questions posed to them that pertained to the topic of the thread. I never said anything about Jesus or god not existing because it was irrelevant to the topic.