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Posts by Cronos

Brevity: Headers | « Text »
  • McDonaldís Is Doomed

    04/23/2015 11:12:11 PM PDT · 89 of 101
    Cronos to SeekAndFind
    The only way for McD's to compete, in my opinion, is to simplify the menu to 20 or 30 items and bring wait times back to a few minutes. They can also automate more -- if you have on your menu just: hamburger, cheeseburger, fries (one size), big Mac, quarter pounder, McChicken, filet-o-fish, apple slices, salad-vegetarian, salad-nonvegetarian, chicken nuggets, bottled water, orange juice (one size), coke (1 size refil), sprite (1 size refill), coffee, tea, iced coffee, smoothies (2 varieties, standard size), vnilla cone, hut fudge sundae, strawberry sundae, flurry; apple pie, egg mcmuffin, sausage-egg mcmuffin, big breakfast, hot cakes,

    Instead you have this monstrous menu

    they could also automate the order menu -- put touch screens at different places so people could order on their own and pay by card or cash. They could also automate more of the "cooking".

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/23/2015 10:49:40 PM PDT · 122 of 136
    Cronos to caww; Leaning Right; vladimir998; St_Thomas_Aquinas

    Really caww — you’ve changed your screen name from caww to ENWW? Why?

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/23/2015 10:48:10 PM PDT · 121 of 136
    Cronos to caww; Leaning Right; vladimir998; St_Thomas_Aquinas
    Caww post 26: Don't play down Polands role in this or any other country that went along to get along with the Nazi's...and I speak of the citizenship...not just the leaders"

    Cronos post 68: With due respect, your statement is wrong on many, many levels

    1. Poland ceased to exist in 1939 -- Hitler wanted it and its people exterminated. He hated Poles just after Jews
    2. Poland never officially surrendered, there was NO collaborationist government unlike France or Norway.
    3. Poles who were not of German origin did not support the Nazis -- at the very least for the simple reason that the Nazis wanted to exterminate the Polish nation as well as the Jewish nation (oh and btw, many Poles of German origin didn't support the Nazis either)
    4. Poland as a nation did not "get along with the Nazis" -- please read the history, it was occupied and torn apart. It was neither an ally like the Estonians or Lithuanians or Hungarians nor a collaborationist state like the Norwegian or French. It was a torn apart nation
    5. The leaders fought against the Nazis. Even during the occupation -- WHO spread word to the Western world that a massacre was going on? The Polish partisan AK (and the West ignored it) -- WHO gave aid to the Jews in the ghettos and camps and even had a Jewish division (The Bielski brigade)? The Polish partisan AK? -

    And the Warsaw Ghetto uprising of 1943 was supported by Poles -- the GErman officer in charge of the liquidation wrote

    When we invaded the Ghetto for the first time, the Jews and the Polish bandits succeeded in repelling the participating units, including tanks and armored cars, by a well-prepared concentration of fire. [...] The main Jewish battle group, mixed with Polish bandits, had already retired during the first and second day to the so-called Muranowski Square. There it was reinforced by a considerable number of Polish bandits. Its plan was to hold the Ghetto by every means in order to prevent us from invading it. [...] Time and again Polish bandits found refuge in the Ghetto and remained there undisturbed, since we had no forces at our disposal to comb out this maze. [...] One such battle group succeeded in mounting a truck by ascending from a sewer in the so-called Prosta [Street], and in escaping with it (about 30 to 35 bandits). ... The bandits and Jews – there were Polish bandits among these gangs armed with carbines, small arms, and in one case a light machine gun – mounted the truck and drove away in an unknown directiom
    And finally A year later, during the 1944 Warsaw Uprising, Batalion Zośka, one of the most notable Polish insurgent units, liberated hundreds of Jews from the Gęsiówka section of the Warsaw Concentration Camp

    Please do read the history, caww

    Reply from caww? crickets

    .

    then Caww (post 113 in reply to something else): I will not admit to saying anything wrong.

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/23/2015 10:46:55 PM PDT · 120 of 136
    Cronos to caww; Leaning Right; vladimir998; St_Thomas_Aquinas
    Caww post 26: How many camps were there in Poland alone.....you simply cannot have that camps without the people's awareness, both in the host country as well as neighboring.

    Cronos post 67: Firstly, caww -- there was no Poland (see my post above) -- it ceased to exist in 1939

    Secondly, Poles were also tossed into German concentration camps

    Thirdly the Armia Krajowe (the partisan anti-occupation underground) told the British and the American governments about the death camps -- but FDR and Churchill did nothing about this and the press did nothing either

    Finally -- why were there so many camps on what was Polish territory? Because that's where most of Europe's Jewry was -- the Germans were and are efficient -- it's more efficient to kill people where they live rather than truck them a thousand miles away

    And, btw, people were aware -- that's why the Israeli Yad Vashem (Righteous Gentiles), on that, the largest group of people who saved Jews are Poles.

    In the Polish territories, unlike ANYWHERE else in occupied Europe, if you protected or helped a Jew, you and your family would be sent to the camps yourself or shot. So you took the risk of getting your family killed. Yet many Poles took that risk for their fellow Poles who were Jewish.

    Reply from caww? crickets

    .

    then Caww (post 113 in reply to something else): I will not admit to saying anything wrong.

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/23/2015 10:43:27 PM PDT · 119 of 136
    Cronos to caww; Leaning Right; vladimir998
    Caww post 26: Don't play down Poland's role in this or any other country that went along to get along with the Nazi's

    Leaning Right in reply in post 31: That is simply an astounding statement. You speak of Poland as if it were some sort of an ally of Germany. I do agree with you that many, maybe even most, Poles knew that something horrible was going on. But what in the world would you have the average Pole do?

    Note that I am not talking about the relatively few collaborators. I'm talking about the average Pole, who lived under a brutal occupation. What would you have him do?

    Reply from caww? crickets

    .

    then Caww (post 113 in reply to something else): I will not admit to saying anything wrong.

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/23/2015 10:40:51 PM PDT · 118 of 136
    Cronos to caww
    Caww post 64: The Pope, who made no public statement against Nazi policy

    then after I showed you overwhelming evidence that your statement was wrong, you change it to post 77 I really don’t care to get into what the Vatican did or didn’t do

    really?

    If you don't care about this, why make that false statement?

    The Israeli Consul to Italy after the war, Rabbi Pinchas Lapide, credited the Holy See with directly saving 860,000 Jewish lives. When he died, Pius XII was eulogized by Golda Meir on the floor of the UN General Assembly. I guess you know more than she did about who did and didn't oppose the Holocaust?

    The Good Samaritan: Jewish Praise for Pius XII

    Even the Wikipedia article is far more balanced.

    It contains the following reaction by leading Nazi Reinhard Heydrich to Pope Pius XII's Christmas address of 1942:

    In a manner never known before, the Pope has repudiated the National Socialist New European Order. His radio allocution was a masterpiece of clerical falsification of the National Socialist Weltanschauung...the Pope does not refer to the National Socialists in Germany by name, but his speech is one long attack on everything we stand for...God, he says, regards all peoples and races as worthy of the same consideration. Here he is clearly speaking on behalf of the Jews...That this speech is directed exclusively against the New Order in Europe as seen in National Socialism is clear in the papal statement that mankind owes a debt to 'all who during the war have lost their Fatherland and who, although personally blameless have, simply on account of their nationality and origin, been killed or reduced to utter destitution.' Here he is virtually accusing the German people of injustice towards the Jews, and makes himself the mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals.
    Do you really want to claim that the Nazis didn't know exactly where they stood with Pius XII, and somehow him "speaking out" would have accomplished something worthwhile? Seriously?

    Incidentally, the whole "Pius XII acquiesced to the Holocaust" lie was a fabrication by the KGB.

    Caww (post 113): I will not admit to saying anything wrong.

  • The Apple Watch Is Neat, But That Is All

    04/23/2015 10:35:38 PM PDT · 208 of 341
    Cronos to Lx; Up Yours Marxists

    it would be a great tool for Insurers — you sign an indemnity that the insurer keeps track of your fitness regime and health and raises or reduces your premium based upon the data.

  • The Apple Watch Is Neat, But That Is All

    04/23/2015 10:33:55 PM PDT · 207 of 341
    Cronos to manc

    Surprisingly, I find the Windows phones much easier to use — I had a HTC with Android and then got a company Lumia 1520 and love it.

  • Poland summons U.S. ambassador over FBI head's Holocaust remarks

    04/23/2015 8:33:15 PM PDT · 112 of 118
    Cronos to Stepan12; Grzegorz 246
    He's making fun of the fact that you bring up a story from the 1200s whose veracity is strictly in question -- because you say these were "Cossacks" in the 1200s when that term didn't even arise until the 1600s. Next, you call them "Polish" -- yet they were themselves adamant in calling themselves distinct from Poles (whether they meant ethnically or in terms of class is open to debate)

    Finally, face facts that Jews were a mobile, rich group of people who could have left (and DID leave) persecuting nations (as they did from France, England, Spain) -- and yet they came and stayed in Poland and PROSPERED. They called Poland "Polan" -- the blessed land.

    Why did they stay? Because the stories of them being persecuted are just that, stories.

    When the Tsarist pogroms happened in the 19th century, that started a wave of migrations to the USA. Why would they have stayed if the Poles were persecuting them over such a long period?

  • Poland summons U.S. ambassador over FBI head's Holocaust remarks

    04/23/2015 8:27:55 PM PDT · 111 of 118
    Cronos to pierrem15; Stepan12; presidio9
    The fact is that the boundaries between Pole and Ukrainian / Ruthenian was always hazy until the rise of nationalism in the 19th century (ditto between Pole and Lithuanian) -- mostly it was based on religion -- for instance my wife's grandmother was born into a mixed family -- HER mother was "Polish" as in Roman Catholic while the father was "Ruthenian" as in Byzantine Catholic (what we'd now call Ukrainian Eastern Catholic). The sons became "Ukrainian" and "Byzantine Catholic and the daughters were "Polish" and Roman Catholic

    The nobility who became Roman Catholic became "Poles", while those who didn't became "Ukrainians"

    There is also the fact that at a point the term "Pole" was more for szlachta or nobility as in the Soviet diatribe against "Polish landlords"

    However the Cossacks were bandits are the beginning, living in the no-mans land between Poland-Lithuania, Moscowy and the Tatars. They adopted Tatar ways merged with Slavic ways.

    Let me read up more about your point of them being mercenaries

  • McDonald's is closing hundreds of restaurants this year

    04/23/2015 8:21:50 PM PDT · 151 of 152
    Cronos to mrsmel

    well, in terms of hygiene — you can have self-contained units that get regular inspection (indeed, inspect themselves) and the employees would be mostly involved in keeping the place clean and not the aassembly line creation of burgers

  • Poland summons U.S. ambassador over FBI head's Holocaust remarks

    04/23/2015 8:20:43 PM PDT · 110 of 118
    Cronos to Stepan12
    Poland didn't "own" the Ukraine -- the Slavs are pretty similar to each other, no matter how much they like to think they aren't -- and especially in the 17th century during the Chmielnicki revolt.

    The "death camps" -- as shown above, were Nazi German death camps on German territory (as Poland was erased from the map). Jedwabne was the Poles in Jedwabne's evil, yes -- the killing of the 340 Jews by the people of that town was disgusting evil -- " A group of Jewish men were forced by the Nazis to demolish a statue of Lenin that had been put up earlier by the Soviets (as in Kolno) and then the group was takent o a barn and killed" - as wikipedia says

    ditto for the Kielce killing of 42 Jews -- disguting and evil

    Note that those were the ONLY TWO instances you could point out of Polish actions and only the former took place under the Nazi Germans. This proves that the FBI guy was wrong to ttalk of Polish collaborationists

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/23/2015 8:14:53 PM PDT · 111 of 136
    Cronos to caww; presidio9

    Caww — when your statements have been proven wrong in a debate, the adult thing to do is say “I was wrong. Thank you for that.” — not backtracking and then threatening to leave.

  • What Chinaís and Pakistanís special friendship means

    04/22/2015 11:09:26 PM PDT · 6 of 6
    Cronos to dp0622; E. Pluribus Unum; sukhoi-30mki
    Why is it bad news for India? It's not like the China-Pakistan axis was a secret.

    "move in with man..."? huh? which country?

    China doesn't "invest" in Pakistan -- they just want to have india kept busy with the failed state of Pakistan and not focusing on China

  • 9/11 COVER-UP?

    04/22/2015 10:58:34 PM PDT · 248 of 289
    Cronos to odds
    ha ha :)

    sharif don't like it...

  • All roads lead to Turkey (Vacations)

    04/22/2015 10:50:13 PM PDT · 20 of 21
    Cronos to fhayek; Citizen Zed; DannyTN

    Instead of Turkey, go to Greece — they need the money. Or head to Lebanon or Spain for the sun.

  • McDonald's is closing hundreds of restaurants this year

    04/22/2015 10:43:53 PM PDT · 112 of 152
    Cronos to Hugin
    They can't compete for taste with the newer brands that cost more. They can't compete for health. They can't compete for customisation with Subway, Chiquita etc. But what they can compete on is location, standard quality (which they had), and quick and fast and cheap yet value-for-money

    By reducing the menu, automating more, they can achieve this. If they had automated menu takers and automated much of the burger making process, they would need a much lesser staff (mostly washroom cleaners) and they would get more people in and out.

  • McDonald's is closing hundreds of restaurants this year

    04/22/2015 10:37:01 PM PDT · 110 of 152
    Cronos to Hugin
    The only way for McD's to compete, in my opinion, is to simplify the menu to 20 or 30 items and bring wait times back to a few minutes. They can also automate more -- if you have on your menu just: hamburger, cheeseburger, fries (one size), big Mac, quarter pounder, McChicken, filet-o-fish, apple slices, salad-vegetarian, salad-nonvegetarian, chicken nuggets, bottled water, orange juice (one size), coke (1 size refil), sprite (1 size refill), coffee, tea, iced coffee, smoothies (2 varieties, standard size), vnilla cone, hut fudge sundae, strawberry sundae, flurry; apple pie, egg mcmuffin, sausage-egg mcmuffin, big breakfast, hot cakes,

    Instead you have this monstrous menu

    they could also automate the order menu -- put touch screens at different places so people could order on their own and pay by card or cash. They could also automate more of the "cooking".

  • 9/11 COVER-UP?

    04/22/2015 10:22:09 PM PDT · 245 of 289
    Cronos to DoughtyOne
    No worries -- it may have been nicer face to face

    My worry is that the West underestimates Islam

    Philosophy changes people -- pre-Christianity in Europe was a different way of thinking. I love history and one day want to write a book (perhaps a mystery book) about everyday life in Sumeria -- it would be something like the Caedwael series, you know an ordinary detective story, only it happens in a different time.

    why? Because I think ancient Sumerian thinking must have been so incredibly different from ours -- think of it, generations (5,6, more) living in the same house for centuries, while around them there is desert, sea and very few people (population of the world circa 4000 BC would have been 10 million or less (since most were hunter-gatherers which gives a lower population capacity), with Indo-Europeans still a tiny tribe between the Caspian and Black Seas

    But, I digress -- I mean, the people would think differently from us and even differently from a medieval person -- there would be no "change" -- "change is not good". There is continuity

    Even today, the Christian and Islamic worlds think of time as an arrow while Hindu and Buddhist philosophy sees time as a circle

    Islam had a chance in the 8th century to change with the Mu`tazila thought, but that was pushed out. Now the most radical Moslems believe that the world is recreated every minute by Allah, every minute, every second. Even the lesser radicalized don't see Allah playing by the rules of nature. This means that there is no IF-THEN idea in Islam, but just submit. It is a completely different way of thinking. We can't fathom it

    Similarly about the separation of Church and State -- we see it now, even the most conservative but in Islam today and in the Middle ages, there was no such separation.

  • 9/11 COVER-UP?

    04/22/2015 8:38:07 PM PDT · 243 of 289
    Cronos to DoughtyOne
    Sorry if I veered on the personal at times. I lived in Bahrain for years in the 80s and, while many Arabs are nice people -- just like anywhere else -- the ones outside Saudi Arabia all say the same "the Saudis cause these problems". It's important to understand why they say this and why you see pictures like this in the 70s in Afghanistan and Pakistan and they are such a contrast to today:

    Afghanistan



    or Pakistan

    I knew a Moslem family whose mother and her mother had never worn a veil ever. Then when I met them again in the 2000s, the 60 year old mother was wearing a full burqa, covering her face. What happened here? The only thing was Saudi education. And I saw more and more of it -- in the gulf, in Pakistani and Indian peoples, in Indonesia, in France and England

    The saud-wahabbi aim is to make Sunni Islam Wahabbi and then to slaughter everyone else -- that is their logic etc.

    This is not rational, this is not like the US-Soviet impasse where one would not use nukes against the other for fear of retaliation. Pakistan happily says it does not agree with the no-first-use clause and will use nukes against India even if it is then wiped out. Why? Because it is the will of Allah.

    Logical thinking does not work with this ilk

  • Poland summons U.S. ambassador over FBI head's Holocaust remarks

    04/22/2015 8:27:28 PM PDT · 94 of 118
    Cronos to Stepan12; presidio9
    "cover up its complicity" -- those are your words. The facts say otherwise.

    btw, the Khmelnitsky movement slaughtered many Jews (considering them allied t the Poles

    And you saying "Polish Cossacks" is like saying "Italian Moors" -- you do realise that Cossacks were bandits living in what is now Ukraine and were not "Poles"

  • Poland summons U.S. ambassador over FBI head's Holocaust remarks

    04/22/2015 8:20:41 PM PDT · 92 of 118
    Cronos to Yollopoliuhqui

    I didn’t know — thank you for pointing it out

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 6:37:29 AM PDT · 90 of 136
    Cronos to presidio9; caww

    To Caww — a reminder, this starts with your post 26 “don’t play down...” — this debate we are having is about the fact that no-one is playing down that some Poles were despicable people who perpetrated violence against Jews, but what IS wrong is to blame all Poles of that generation for what the Nazi Germans did

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 6:30:40 AM PDT · 88 of 136
    Cronos to caww
    Caww post 64: The Pope, who made no public statement against Nazi policy

    then after I showed you overwhelming evidence that your statement was wrong, you change it to post 77 I really don’t care to get into what the Vatican did or didn’t do

    really?

    If you don't care about this, why make that false statement?

    The Israeli Consul to Italy after the war, Rabbi Pinchas Lapide, credited the Holy See with directly saving 860,000 Jewish lives. When he died, Pius XII was eulogized by Golda Meir on the floor of the UN General Assembly. I guess you know more than she did about who did and didn't oppose the Holocaust?

    The Good Samaritan: Jewish Praise for Pius XII

    Even the Wikipedia article is far more balanced.

    It contains the following reaction by leading Nazi Reinhard Heydrich to Pope Pius XII's Christmas address of 1942:

    In a manner never known before, the Pope has repudiated the National Socialist New European Order. His radio allocution was a masterpiece of clerical falsification of the National Socialist Weltanschauung...the Pope does not refer to the National Socialists in Germany by name, but his speech is one long attack on everything we stand for...God, he says, regards all peoples and races as worthy of the same consideration. Here he is clearly speaking on behalf of the Jews...That this speech is directed exclusively against the New Order in Europe as seen in National Socialism is clear in the papal statement that mankind owes a debt to 'all who during the war have lost their Fatherland and who, although personally blameless have, simply on account of their nationality and origin, been killed or reduced to utter destitution.' Here he is virtually accusing the German people of injustice towards the Jews, and makes himself the mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals.
    Do you really want to claim that the Nazis didn't know exactly where they stood with Pius XII, and somehow him "speaking out" would have accomplished something worthwhile? Seriously?

    Incidentally, the whole "Pius XII acquiesced to the Holocaust" lie was a fabrication by the KGB.

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 6:28:18 AM PDT · 86 of 136
    Cronos to raybbr
    I would like to think that it's only "oops, I made a mistake out of lack of knowledge and I need to fight to the end to prevent me being seen to have made a mistake" and not Putin fandom -- the latter I strongly doubt. It's mostly sheer "let's get them caflix"
  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 6:02:05 AM PDT · 85 of 136
    Cronos to caww; dfwgator; presidio9; vladimir998
    Sorry, but your "facts" need more than just some random site you've picked them up from. there is more detail than your post conveys

    Let's take these 1 by 1:

    1. Cardinal Hlond - while he did say that, he did also
      Cardinal Hlond of the Catholic Church in January 1938 made a in which he was quoted as branding anti-Semitic outbreaks as “the criminal action of political plotters, who by attacking Jews fight the government.”

      He also in his statements against Jews state that “not all the Jews are, however, like that... it is inadmissible to assault, hit, or injure the Jews.”
    2. Ditto about the Cardinal when he spoke out, he was careful to state the last two sentences -- which make them bad, but not anti-semitic violence inciting bad
    3. There were no anti-Jewish pogroms in 1936 -- there was a riot in Przytyk in which 2 Jews and 1 Gentile was killed -- a pogrom is state sponsored.
    4. The Madagascar plan was first proposed by Paul de Lagarde, an Orientalist scholar, first suggested evacuating the European Jews to Madagascar in his 1878 work Deutsche Schriften ("German Writings")

      then there was the Uganda Scheme to save Jews living in Tsarist Rus

      The idea of Jewish resettlement was taken up in the 1920s by British antisemites Henry Hamilton Beamish, Arnold Leese, and others

      With the cooperation of the French, the Polish government commissioned a task force in 1937 to examine the possibility of deporting Polish Jews to the island. The head of the commission, Mieczyslaw Lepecki, felt the island could accommodate 5,000 to 7,000 families, but Jewish members of the group estimated that only 500 or even fewer families could safely be accommodated.

      For your post, caww, to say that P investigates without this background is disingenuous
    5. Next, your statement about April 5 1938 "riots" has no basis in any facts, please don't toss that about without a link to that
    6. The April 15 one again, there are random comments but no actual news clips (and there would have been -- like the Przytyk riot above
    7. May 29, 1938 -- you talk of Hungary, you do realise that's a separate country than Poland -- stick to the point
    8. Finally, caww, your last one about the revoking of passports is so badly a half truth, it is despicable -- the truth is much more than that, and here it is
      legislation in 1938, stripping Poles who had emigrated after 1919 of their nationality if they had not returned to Poland for 5 years without having visited Poland even once, “would have lost their connection to the Polish nation”, and thus should be given the possibility to “revoke the the citizenship”

      Polish citizens residing in these countries were called to report to the respective Polish consulates presenting their passports for renewal and duly warned that non-show by the deadline October 30, 1938 would mean that their Polish passport would be invalidated and its holder considered stateless and will lose his/her right to enter Poland. Some Polish citizens living in Germany and Austria, Jews or not, went and had their passports renewed. Some didn’t and became stateless. Jews of Polish origin residing in Germany who did not renew their Polish passports and had their residents permit in Germany revoked became both stateless and illegal residents in Germany

      The Polish decree referred to all Polish citizens of all faiths and ethnic groups.

      The Jews of Polish origins that were expelled were not a “newly additional population” at all, most of them were Jews who had lived in Germany for decades and have been living in Germany since long before WWI.


      you DO realise that POland did not exist before WWI? It was eradicated between 1791 and 1918?
      I would urge you to please READ something instead of randomly copying half-truths from some site. This is like the diatribes against Catholicism in your earlier posts, and just like those, I've proved them half-truths at best
  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 1:57:48 AM PDT · 82 of 136
    Cronos to caww
    Look...Hitler ‘clearly and distinctly’ warned the entire world that the Jews would be wiped out unless evacuated by the Democracies..and he did so as he was filling the prisons...It was even published in our newspapers here.

    No, he never said anything about "evacuating the Jews" -- he wanted them as well as the Poles EXTERMINATED, KILLED, DEAD

    Note that I said he also wanted to do the same to the Poles and did start on that

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 1:55:05 AM PDT · 81 of 136
    Cronos to caww; presidio9; dfwgator
    caww I can’t buy that people were simply afraid

    despite the overwhelming evidence that they were afraid?

    Have you ever been in such a situation that you can say you would do otherwise?

    I'm not talking about Ukraine, "Astonia" etc., i'm talking about Poland -- what would YOU do? I find it incredible that someone living 70 years later in a free country who has never experienced this kind of hell would say "Oh, you and your family could be killed if discovered helping a Jew, but you should still help them." -- many DID help, but have you been in such a position that you could condemn those who didn't help?

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 1:52:31 AM PDT · 80 of 136
    Cronos to caww; presidio9
    caww: The idea is that the world knew and still this went on and on and on...often with the help of local authorities and peoples. People chose not to believe this was possible....even with the evidence in hand.

    How many times to tell you -- there was no "local authority" in occupied Poland in WWII -- Poland was torn apart.

    let's take it that caww is a Christian living in Kraków in 1942 and has a Jewish neighbor. The neighbor is going to be rounded up and sent to a camp. You probably know it's going to be hard like the Soviet gulags, but you also KNOW that if you help him and are discovered, you and your family are going to be sent to the camp. What do you do?

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 1:49:47 AM PDT · 79 of 136
    Cronos to caww

    There were no “plenty of bad events that they went along with...” — you can’t make false statements and then when shown they are wrong come up with “I really don’t care to get into what the Vatican did or didn’t do”

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 1:48:57 AM PDT · 78 of 136
    Cronos to caww
    Caww post 64: The Pope, who made no public statement against Nazi policy

    then after I showed you overwhelming evidence that your statement was wrong, you change it to post 77 I really don’t care to get into what the Vatican did or didn’t do

    really?

    If you don't care about this, why make that false statement?

  • 9/11 COVER-UP?

    04/22/2015 1:14:44 AM PDT · 240 of 289
    Cronos to DoughtyOne
    Basically, what I'm telling you is this -- the regime in Saudi Arabia is not just the King, but the entire Saud-Wahab edifice. They are emperors ruling over lands and tribes conquered in 1918. They are a theocratic government and have been. They ban any religion except Islam and they have destroyed Sufi, Shia and Ismaili monuments and tombs in the country.

    Their only allegiance, only ally is Islam and specifially the Salafist Wahab strain. They use the USA only for this purpose and have used it and American money since the 60s to pay for the spread of Salafist teaching across hte world

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 1:08:33 AM PDT · 75 of 136
    Cronos to caww
    Archbishop (later Cardinal) Jules Gerard Saliege of Toulouse and read on August 23, strongly echoed the principles stressed over and over by Pius:
    "There is a Christian morality . . . that confers rights and imposes duties. These duties and these rights come from God. One can violate them. But no mortal has the power to suppress them. Alas, it has been our destiny to witness the dreadful spectacle of children, women, and old men being treated like vile beasts; of families being torn apart and deported to unknown destinations. . . . In our diocese, frightful things are taking place in Noe and Recebedou [camps]. . . . The Jews are our brethren. They belong to mankind. No Christian dares forget that!35
    A week later the priests of the diocese of Montauban read to their congregations a letter from their bishop, Pierre-Marie Theas:
    "On behalf of my outraged Christian conscience, I raise my voice in protest [against the treatment of Jews], and I assert that all men, Aryans and non-Aryans, are brothers because they have been created by the same God; that all men, whatever their race or religion, have the right to be respected by individuals and states. The present anti-Semitic pressures flout human dignity and violate the most sacred rights of the human person and family. . . .36
    That Pius' exhortations were effective, and that local officials charged with "the Jewish question" recognized this, there is no doubt. Witness a communication to SS Standard-Leader Dr. Knochen in early summer of 1943 concerning south-eastern France, then occupied by Italian forces:
    "A treasonable propaganda is exploiting this difference between the conceptions of the German and the Italian governments in the matter of solving the Jewish question. it is inspired by the Vatican.

    caww, educate yourself When the Nazis forbade ritual slaughter to the Jews, the Pope sent shohetim into Vatican City to perform the ritual slaughter and store food for the Jews sheltered there. Many Jewish citizens, expelled from government, scientific, and teaching positions, were invited to the Vatican; the president and two professors from the University of Rome and a famous geographer, all Jews ousted by the Fascists, received important positions in Vatican City. Bernard Berenson, who preferred to remain in Italy during the war, was given asylum in a villa near Florence, which belonged to the Holy See's minister to the Republic of San Marino, so that he could continue to work and live unmolested; he and his family stayed there, under the flag of the Vatican's diplomatic immunity, until British and American troops arrived in the late summer of 1944.

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 1:04:20 AM PDT · 74 of 136
    Cronos to caww
    That the Pope was deeply antagonistic to the racism the National-Socialists advocated is evident from his work prior to his election to the papacy. The famous Mit Brennender Sorge shows the hand of Pacelli, then Vatican Secretary of State; more directly, as papal legate, Pacelli spoke these scathing words to 250,000 pilgrims at Lourdes on April 28, 1935:
    They [The Nazis] are in reality only miserable plagiarists who dress up old errors with new tinsel. It does not make any difference whether they flock to the banners of the social revolution, whether they are guided by a false conception of the world and of life, or whether they are possessed by the superstition of a race and blood cult.

    This even caused the Nazi collaborationist Slovak government to say

    "It is incomprehensible to the government that ecclesiastic circles and especially the Catholic clergy should today adduce so many protests against the elimination of the Jews, who in the past were most responsible for the misery of the Slovak people . . . . The Slovak clergy save for a few honorable exceptions has rarely showed such zeal for the interests of its own people as it does now for the interests of the Jews, and in many cases even for those who are not baptized . .

    The Holy See's interest in the plight of the Romanian Jews is attested to by Archbishop Cassulo's own official messages and memoranda as well as the testimony of Rabbi Safran. On November 24, 1942, the apostolic nuncio sent Mihail Antonescu a note which read in part:

    "Ever since the Romanian government has come to believe itself bound to examine the diverse aspects of the Jewish question in Romania and to solve it in accordance with the country's interests, the Holy See has been concerned, above all other considerations, with . . . the respect that must be assured to every innocent person who is abandoned and without support . . .
    The action taken to help the Jews in Hungary was manifold. In the spring of 1944, the papal nuncio, Msgr. Angelo Rotta, warned that country on the first day of the deportation of Jews that the whole world knew what they really signified; on June 25, 1944, he delivered Miklos Horthy a letter which was a strong protest from the Pope.28 Prior to the onslaught on Hungarian Jews by the Fascists, Hungary responded to promptings from the Vatican and gave asylum to Jewish refugees from Poland and Slovakia. As the bloodbath swept Hungary, the Vatican notified its nuncios in Budapest and Bratislava to watch the situation and do all they could for the welfare of Jewish refugees.29 At about the same time, the Pope had the following message sent to the World Jewish Congress, with which he was in communication during the war:
    "Whenever reports reached the Holy See that the situation of the Jews in Hungary was becoming worse, steps were immediately taken to assist these people and to alleviate their condition. The Holy See gives assurance that it will continue to act in behalf of these Jews. Following instructions from the Holy See, the Apostolic Nunciature in Budapest has repeatedly intervened with the Hungarian authorities so that violent and unjust measures would not be taken against the Jews in that country. The bishops of Hungary have engaged in an intense activity in favor of persecuted Jews. The action on the part of the Nunciature and the bishops will continue as long as necessary...The Holy Father...[sent] a personal open telegram to the Cardinal [Archbishop of Strigonium (Esztergom)], and in this communication His Holiness again manifested his heartfelt interest in promoting the welfare of all those exposed to violence and persecution because of their race or religion or on account of political motives. The Holy Father gives assurance that he will, in the future as in the past, do everything in favor of these people in Hungary or in any other European country.30
    The Pope's words, discreet as they are, give little indication of how intense the clergy's activity was. The nuncio spoke out sharply, as did the Hungarian bishops, and simultaneously undertook as widespread rescue measures as possible. Helped by priests and nuns, he and the bishops sheltered several thousand Jews, distributed false papers, and provided information, clothing, and food; Laszlo Endre, the Undersecretary of the Interior in the Nazi government, said testily that as far as aid to the Jews is concerned, priests and clergy men . . . unfortunately are in the first rank. Protection and intervention have never been on such a large scale as today
  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 1:00:11 AM PDT · 73 of 136
    Cronos to caww
    There is considerable documentation in support of Pope Pius' fear that a formal statement would worsen, not improve, conditions for the persecuted. Ernst von Weizsacker, the German ambassador to the Vatican during World War II, wrote in his memoirs:
    Not even institutions of worldwide importance, such as the International Red Cross or the Roman Catholic Church saw fit to appeal to Hitler in a general way on behalf of the Jews or to call openly on the sympathies of the world. It was precisely because they wanted to help the Jews that these organizations refrained from making any general and public appeals; for they were afraid that they would injure rather than help the Jews thereby
    Pius learned precisely how firm this German threat was from the protest of the Dutch bishops against seizures of the Jews, for immediately following that protest and, as later confirmed by an SS officer, in direct answer to it, the Nazis stepped up their anti-Jewish activities in the Netherlands; a week after the pastoral letter was read at all the masses in Holland, the SS rounded up every priest and monk and nun who had any Jewish blood whatever, and deported them to concentration camps
  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 12:55:27 AM PDT · 72 of 136
    Cronos to caww
    The Pope condemned the Nazis in his encyclical ""On the Unity of Human Society."

    Hitler killed Catholics as well as Protestants (except his Nazi German "Protestantism" which aimed to "replace the Jewish Christ with an Aryan Christ" -- so not Protestant or Christian in any way)

    finally, When 60,000 German soldiers and the Gestapo occupied Rome in 1943, thousands of Jews were hiding in churches, convents, rectories, the Vatican and the papal summer residence. On September 27, 1943, one of the Nazi commanders in Rome demanded that the Jewish community pay one hundred pounds of gold within thirty-six hours or three hundred Jews would be taken prisoner. When the Jewish Community Council was only able to gather only seventy pounds of gold, they turned to the Vatican. In his memoirs, the then Chief Rabbi Zolli of Rome writes that he was sent to the Vatican where he was met by the Vatican treasurer and secretary of state who told him that the Holy Father himself (i.e., the Pope) had given orders for the deficit to be filled with gold taken from the Treasury.

    Please do read before making false statements

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 12:46:27 AM PDT · 71 of 136
    Cronos to caww
    No...it's that ‘the citizens’ knew what was happening at the camps . They knew what the Nazi Agenda was regarding the Jewish population.

    And those citizens were next in line for termination as per the German publicized lebenstraum rule. Those citizens knew that if they even gave bread to the Jews, they and their families would be sent to concentration camps as well

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 12:44:26 AM PDT · 70 of 136
    Cronos to Alberta's Child

    The ones who made the choice of the lesser evil (Nazis) vs Soviets were the Finns, Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians — and scarily, they were correct, the Communists were worse.

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 12:43:17 AM PDT · 69 of 136
    Cronos to St_Thomas_Aquinas; caww
    I agree with Thomas -- caww, please do read

    Here is the map of Polish territories after 1939 -- hint, Poland didn't exist

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 12:39:05 AM PDT · 68 of 136
    Cronos to caww; Leaning Right; presidio9; vladimir998
    caww "Don't play down Polands role in this or any other country that went along to get along with the Nazi's...and I speak of the citizenship...not just the leaders"

    With due respect, your statement is wrong on many, many levels

    1. Poland ceased to exist in 1939 -- Hitler wanted it and its people exterminated. He hated Poles just after Jews
    2. Poland never officially surrendered, there was NO collaborationist government unlike France or Norway.
    3. Poles who were not of German origin did not support the Nazis -- at the very least for the simple reason that the Nazis wanted to exterminate the Polish nation as well as the Jewish nation (oh and btw, many Poles of German origin didn't support the Nazis either)
    4. Poland as a nation did not "get along with the Nazis" -- please read the history, it was occupied and torn apart. It was neither an ally like the Estonians or Lithuanians or Hungarians nor a collaborationist state like the Norwegian or French. It was a torn apart nation
    5. The leaders fought against the Nazis. Even during the occupation -- WHO spread word to the Western world that a massacre was going on? The Polish partisan AK (and the West ignored it) -- WHO gave aid to the Jews in the ghettos and camps and even had a Jewish division (The Bielski brigade)? The Polish partisan AK? -

    And the Warsaw Ghetto uprising of 1943 was supported by Poles -- the GErman officer in charge of the liquidation wrote

    When we invaded the Ghetto for the first time, the Jews and the Polish bandits succeeded in repelling the participating units, including tanks and armored cars, by a well-prepared concentration of fire. [...] The main Jewish battle group, mixed with Polish bandits, had already retired during the first and second day to the so-called Muranowski Square. There it was reinforced by a considerable number of Polish bandits. Its plan was to hold the Ghetto by every means in order to prevent us from invading it. [...] Time and again Polish bandits found refuge in the Ghetto and remained there undisturbed, since we had no forces at our disposal to comb out this maze. [...] One such battle group succeeded in mounting a truck by ascending from a sewer in the so-called Prosta [Street], and in escaping with it (about 30 to 35 bandits). ... The bandits and Jews – there were Polish bandits among these gangs armed with carbines, small arms, and in one case a light machine gun – mounted the truck and drove away in an unknown directiom
    And finally A year later, during the 1944 Warsaw Uprising, Batalion Zośka, one of the most notable Polish insurgent units, liberated hundreds of Jews from the Gęsiówka section of the Warsaw Concentration Camp

    Please do read the history, caww

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 12:26:36 AM PDT · 67 of 136
    Cronos to caww
    Firstly, caww -- there was no Poland (see my post above) -- it ceased to exist in 1939

    Secondly, Poles were also tossed into German concentration camps

    Thirdly the Armia Krajowe (the partisan anti-occupation underground) told the British and the American governments about the death camps -- but FDR and Churchill did nothing about this and the press did nothing either

    Finally -- why were there so many camps on what was Polish territory? Because that's where most of Europe's Jewry was -- the Germans were and are efficient -- it's more efficient to kill people where they live rather than truck them a thousand miles away

    And, btw, people were aware -- that's why the Israeli Yad Vashem (Righteous Gentiles), on that, the largest group of people who saved Jews are Poles.

    In the Polish territories, unlike ANYWHERE else in occupied Europe, if you protected or helped a Jew, you and your family would be sent to the camps yourself or shot. So you took the risk of getting your family killed. Yet many Poles took that risk for their fellow Poles who were Jewish.

  • Polandís overdue Holocaust education

    04/22/2015 12:20:40 AM PDT · 66 of 136
    Cronos to yoe; presidio9
    correction, yoe Poland the new German East had six or more death camps

    Poland ceased to exist in 1939 -- it as a country was terminated and its people were to be exterminated as well to make room for Germans. The name was also wiped out and broken into districts incorporated into various German states.

  • 9/11 COVER-UP?

    04/21/2015 11:50:27 PM PDT · 239 of 289
    Cronos to DoughtyOne

    To be precise — the words of the Grand Mufti are the official pronouncements of the Saudi regime. For people who have a separation of Church and state (indeed much of the Western world), it may be difficult to understand the Saudi regime. The Mufti and the King are both part of the Saudi-Wahabbi regime

  • 9/11 COVER-UP?

    04/21/2015 12:30:20 PM PDT · 228 of 289
    Cronos to DoughtyOne
    I don’t have regular TV cable service any longer, and haven’t for several years

    Same here -- and, since most of the TV news here is in Polish -- at the beginning 5 years ago I didn't understand and now I don't care :-P

    I get my news from internet and the economist

    the Grand Mufti is a government official -- he gets his salary from the Saudi government.

  • 9/11 COVER-UP?

    04/21/2015 12:00:34 PM PDT · 225 of 289
    Cronos to DoughtyOne
    DO Well then my perception is off, but I have never seen the Saudi government display the type of activity Iran has, with clerics spouting off.

    you haven't seen this guy?

    Saudi grand mufti calls for demolition of churches

    Saudi Arabia’s top Muslim cleric called on Tuesday for the destruction of all churches in the Arabian Peninsula after legislators in the Gulf state of Kuwait moved to pass laws banning the construction of religious sites associated with Christianity.

    Speaking to a delegation in Kuwait, Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah, who serves as the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, said the destruction of churches was absolutely necessary and is required by Islamic law, Arabic media reported.

    Saudi religious leader OKs rape of children

    Saudi Arabia’s Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdulaziz Al al-Sheikh, the kingdom’s top religious authority in the ultra-conservative Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam, has ruled it’s acceptable for men to marry girls so young the West would deem it nothing short of pedophilia and rape.

    “The ulema have agreed that it is permissible for fathers to marry off their small daughters, even if they are in the cradle,” the edict declared. “But it is not permissible for their husbands to have sex with them unless they are capable of being placed beneath and bearing the weight of the men. And their capability in this regard varies based on their nature and capacity. Aisha was six when she married the prophet, but he had sex with her when she was nine, that is, when she was deemed capable.”

    Fawzan said there is nothing in Islamic, or Shariah law, that sets a minimum age limit on marrying girls, citing Quran 65:4.

    “It behooves those who call for setting a minimum age for marriage to fear Allah and not contradict his Shariah, or try to legislate things Allah did not permit,” Fawzan said. “For laws are Allah’s province, and legislation is his exclusive right, to be shared by none other. And among these are the rules governing marriage.”

    Saudis Can Eat Wife if Very Hungry

    Saudi grand mufti 'issues fatwa permitting man to chop up and eat wife in event of extreme hunger' A leading Saudi Arabian cleric has reportedly issued a controversial fatwa allowing a husband to chop up his wife and eat her body in the event of extreme hunger,

    The grand mufti, who is the highest religious figure in Saudi Arabia, allegedly went on to substantiate the fatwa by saying this will allow the couple to "become one as their bodies will fuse together after the husband eats his wife".

    He and the Saud family are tight

  • 9/11 COVER-UP?

    04/21/2015 11:47:13 AM PDT · 221 of 289
    Cronos to DoughtyOne
    Stability of the situation in erstwhile Saudi Arabia when the SAuds fall? -- it will be pretty stable, just as it was before 1918.

    What would happen is that some dynasty (most likely the Jordanian Hashemites, as descendents of Muhammad) would control the Hijaz (Mecca and Medina), while various Saudi princelings would control the central area and there would be a Shia Imam in charge of the oil fields and an Ismaili state in the south.

  • 9/11 COVER-UP?

    04/21/2015 11:45:44 AM PDT · 219 of 289
    Cronos to DoughtyOne
    Stability of the situation in erstwhile Saudi Arabia when the SAuds fall? -- it will be pretty stable, just as it was before 1918.

    What would happen is that some dynasty (most likely the Jordanian Hashemites, as descendents of Muhammad) would control the Hijaz (Mecca and Medina), while various Saudi princelings would control the central area and there would be a Shia Imam in charge of the oil fields and an Ismaili state in the south.

  • Methodist group seeks LGBT inclusion

    04/21/2015 7:43:49 AM PDT · 78 of 78
    Cronos to xzins; MarMema

    it would be interesting to know how the Orthodox handle this issue — in my opinion it’s because their philosophy is “is it a new innovation? If yes, then OUT!” :) — and that has its merits

  • 9/11 COVER-UP?

    04/21/2015 2:55:12 AM PDT · 190 of 289
    Cronos to DoughtyOne
    Cronos, it seems to me that if you take the capital of Saudi Arabia, you become the defacto government those tribes still answer to.

    No. If you take Mecca and Medina then you have influence over the Islamic world, but no, you don't rule over the other tribes in Arabia

    Riyadh was only the capital of the peninsula when the Sauds who come from Riyadh, conquered the other emirates around the Arabian peninsula. It was a s***-hole before.

  • 9/11 COVER-UP?

    04/21/2015 2:53:24 AM PDT · 189 of 289
    Cronos to DoughtyOne
    DO: . None the less, if the current government of Saudi Arabia changes hands and becomes a government ruled like Iran with Clerics in charge, I still think it will be far worse than Iran.

    It already IS a government with clerics in charge and has been since 1918.