Posts by Edward Watson

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  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 5:31:05 PM PDT · 318 of 448
    Edward Watson to darkwing104

    Words sure do have meaning. As a student of history, I am too aware that genocides occur because people have been conditioned into viewing others as subhuman or unworthy of existence. Words condition people into justifying terrible evil because their god wills it or the victims deserve their fate because they are outsiders or different.

    The constant demonization and misrepresentation of Mormons has already poisoned millions of minds in the US and elsewhere. Just as the propaganda against the Jews resulted in the Holocaust in Europe, “Mormons are a non-Christian cult” is the first step into portraying us as foreigners or outsiders that will lead to another Holocaust if the thin restraint of our civilization disappears.

    Why not just get it over and done with and start killing us Mormons just because we believe differently than you? After all, wouldn’t the world be a better place without us “cultists?”

    The current propaganda against us will lead in that direction. So-called “Christians” will once again butcher the outsiders in the name of God. I’ve no doubt if the United States suffers a civilizational collapse that areas with large Evangelical and Baptist populations will resort to exterminating Mormons, and other undesirables like Jehovah’s Witnesses, thinking they’re doing God a favor.

    The old, “Well, we never told anyone to kill them” is a pathetic excuse since the poison and hatred towards Mormons was planted long ago in their hearts to their everlasting condemnation.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:56:18 PM PDT · 288 of 448
    Edward Watson to Godzilla

    You know, Godzilla, you really need to stop this distortion. I’ve repeatedly addressed your arguments. Claiming I’ve avoided them is dishonest. I know, I know, the usual players here will side with you but the posting history shows otherwise.

    YOU, not me, distorted Mormonism’s view on women. YOU, not me, ignores points. Did you address my pointing out the obvious that you’re confusing authority with superiority? No you didn’t.

    I’ve spent hours and hours of my extremely valuable time replying to you and the other anti-Mormons on this forum this past week. I really have better things to do than engage in religious debates - I discontinued writing Mormon apologetics for the precise reason that I simply do NOT care any more. I get dragged in on this forum because I simply cannot tolerate the constant lying and misrepresentation you and the others do against my faith. I know such demonization is the first step towards justification of genocide and if not confronted, bad things will eventually happen all over again just because of religious intolerance.

    So now, using the “IF” qualifier is invalid, just because your feelings were hurt? Baloney. Reading into my jab to infer it was a condemnation of your “alleged” military service? How did that happen?

    Also, why are you frothing at the mouth? You constantly engage in belittling me and my fellow Mormons, but when your credibility is questioned; oh! How dare he!

    Come to think of it, are you really a military veteran or just one of those phonies who were against the war that were paraded before the media? After all, you’re expecting me and everyone else to believe you’re a vet. Well, how would we know you’re telling the truth? Anyone can claim to be anything here.

    It really is quite simple. STOP LYING and MISREPRESENTING my faith. I do not do it to your faith; don’t do it to mine.

    My interests are elsewhere. So take your alleged righteous indignation, pretend your red herring gives you a great moral victory, and get on with your life.

    Lastly, I know my writing style 12 years ago was atrocious - I make no apologies for whatever I wrote in my 20s. Bye boyo.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:28:43 PM PDT · 256 of 448
    Edward Watson to colorcountry

    I’m still waiting for your response. I provided several hundred passages demonstrating the New Testament teaches the Sanctified are going to be deified. I also pointed out your entire milk re meat thingy contradicts the Bible. Who exactly between us is attacking the messenger “without facts to back up their statements?”

    As I’ve said before, I DO NOT CARE to convert people. My church cares, I do not. Join if you want; leave if you want. I simply do not care.

    What I do care about is not allowing those who lie and distort the true teachings of Mormonism to get away with it without challenge.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:22:33 PM PDT · 250 of 448
    Edward Watson to mrreaganaut

    Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote since I did use a qualifier, and I never condemned him for his military service.

    As usual, par for the course - a deliberate misrepresentation of what I wrote. Sadly, why am I not surprised?

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:19:59 PM PDT · 247 of 448
    Edward Watson to reaganaut

    Where exactly have I been dishonest?

    Please provide specific examples.

    As usual, all you anti-Mormons do is misrepresent others.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:18:27 PM PDT · 245 of 448
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    Your opinion and I simply do not care what you think of me.

    If you cannot grasp the significance of using qualifiers, then what’s the point of talking with you?

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:15:40 PM PDT · 243 of 448
    Edward Watson to reaganaut

    You know, you really need to read what I write better. I used the “IF” qualifier for my observation concerning his distortion of authority and superiority.

    Making the assumption I slammed him for his military service is just silly, especially since I have immense respect for the US military and have been encouraging my teenage sons to serve in the US armed forces despite being Canadian.

    Just as 90% of Americans and Canadians do not serve in the military, neither did I. I did serve an LDS mission. I wish I went into the military, but things happened and the opportunity passed.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:07:40 PM PDT · 238 of 448
    Edward Watson to reaganaut

    Absolutely correct. I used them in a book I wrote back in 1998. Just cut and pasted, but still relevant. The biblical text doesn’t change - the Divine Council passages will always remain.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:04:41 PM PDT · 236 of 448
    Edward Watson to Godzilla

    Well good for you then. Since I qualified my statement with “IF” and you wisely sidestepped my observation that authority and superiority are not the same thing; I consider the issue settled. Your interpretation is wrong. Period. You know it and I know it.

    Even your red herring of portraying my post as a slam against your military service doesn’t speak well of your character. Admittedly, it does credit to your intelligence since the usual anti-Mormon players got suckered as evidenced by the righteous indignation against me for saying something I did NOT say. But then, that’s only to be expected in these here parts. Well played.

    I did not and do not condemn your service - I admire it. In fact, I’ve been encouraging my sons to serve in the US military despite being Canadians. I did not serve and I’ve always regretted it. Both my father and grandparents served in WWII. My father was shot on four occasions and injured by mortar fire once. Tough guy.

    So, what have we learned in our brief exchange? I have a thin skin when it comes to dishonesty and you have a thin skin when the jab hits close to home.

    Welcome to the human race. Perhaps now we’ve crossed the Rubicon and a more honest and respectful dialog can occur.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 9:07:35 AM PDT · 191 of 448
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    I provided you with around 50 references from the best biblical scholars in the world who ALL AGREE the earliest portions of the Bible taught the Divine Council, where Eloheim (and later YHWH) ruled the council of the gods.

    Here they are again - if you can’t be bothered checking up just one of these references; that then tells me your competency and your honesty.

    The Anchor Bible Dictionary. (6 Volumes). Editor-in-Chief: David Noel Freedman. (Doubleday, New York). Copyright © 1992 by Doubleday. 1:249-252; 835; 2:214-217; 3:238,302; 4:43,922,1004-1010; 5:986; 6:129,156-157,510-511;
    The Triumph of Elohim. From Yahwisms to Judaisms. Ed. Diana Vikander Edelman. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). © 1995 Kok Pharos Publishing House, Kampen, the Netherlands. This edition published 1996 through special arrangement with Kok Pharos by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. pp.28 f.2, 30-31,36-38,40-43,60-63,65,71,80,91;
    The Early History of God. Yahweh and Other Deities in Ancient Israel. Mark S. Smith. (Harper and Row Publishers, San Francisco). Copyright © 1990 Mark S. Smith. pp. 9-10,26,101,114 e#138,165;
    The New Interpreter’s Bible. (In 12 Volumes). (Abingdon Press, Nashville). Vol 1 © 1994. Vol 4 © 1996. Both by Abingdon Press. 1:272-274; 4:347,792,1006-1007,1035, 1093;
    The Illustrated Bible Dictionary. In three parts. (Inter-Varsity Press. Tyndale House Publishers. Hodder and Stoughton. Sydney and Auckland). © The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, 1980. p. 1474;
    The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible. Including the Apocrypha, with General Articles. Ed. Charles M. Layman. (Abingdon Press, Nashville.) Copyright © 1971 by Abingdon Press. 14th Printing, 1992. pp. 285,263,279;
    Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament. (15 Volumes). Editors: G. Johannes Botterweck, Helmer Ringgren & Heinz Josef Fabry. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyrights © 1974-1997 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 1:254,258,282; 5:519-520;
    Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. (10 Volumes). Eds: Gerhard Kittle & Gerhard Friedrich. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1964-1976 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 8:347-349;
    The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary. Gen. Ed. J. Achtemeier. (Harper, San Francisco). Copyright © 1985,1996 by The Society of Biblical Literature. pp. 276,1054;
    The Jerome Biblical Commentary. Edited by Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer and Roland E. Murphy. Two volumes in one. (Prentice-Hall, Inc. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey). © 1968 by Prentice-Hall, Inc. 2:20 (1); 6:74 (8); 16:17 (8); 22:9 (A); 35:26 (6), 46 (1), 74 (Pref-2), 98 (Pref-2,6-7);
    Dictionary of the Bible. Ed. James Hastings. Rev. Edition by Frederick C. Grant and H. H. Rowley. (Charles Scribner’s Sons, New York). Copyright © 1963 T&T Clark and Charles Scribner’s Sons. pp. 32,134,334;
    A History of God. The 4000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Karen Armstrong. (Alfred A. Knopf, New York. 1994). Copyright © 1993 by Karen Armstrong. pp. 50-51;
    Mercer Dictionary of the Bible. Gen. Ed. Watson E. Mills. (Mercer University Press. Macon, Georgia). Copyright © 1990 Mercer University Press, Macon, Georgia. Second and Corrected Printing, July 1991. pp. 176-177, 581,845;
    New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis. Gen. Ed. William A. VanGemeren. (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1997 by William A. VanGemeren. 1:375-376;
    The Expositor’s Bible Commentary. (12 Volumes) With the NIV. Gen. Ed. Frank E. Gæbelein. The Zondervan NIV Bible Library. 2.5.1. (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1989-1997 The Zondervan Corporation. Job. Intro 8; 1:6-12,20; 34:1; Ps 82:1;
    Dictionary of the Bible. John L. MacKenzie. S.J. (Collier Books, MacMillan Publishing Company, New York). Copyright © 1965 by MacMillan Publishing Company. pp. 30, 316, 830;
    A New Standard Bible Dictionary. Edited by Melancthon W. Jacobus, Elbert C. Lane & Andrew C. Zenos. (Funk and Wagnalls Company, New York). Third Revised Edition. Copyright 1936 by Funk & Wagnalls Company. pp. 46-47;
    The Religious Background of the Bible. J. N. Schofield. (Thomas Nelson and Sons Ltd, London: 1944). p. 181;
    The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary. Rev. Ed. Allen C. Myers. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1987 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. p. 55;
    The New Layman’s Bible Commentary. In One Volume. Ed: G. C. D. Howley; F. F. Bruce & H. L. Ellison. (Regency Reference Library. Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Copyright © 1979 by Pickering & Inglis LTD, Glasgow Scotland under the title Bible Commentary for Today. pp. 308, 618, 659;
    The New Bible Dictionary. Organizing Editor: J.D. Douglas. (William. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan). © The Inter-Varsity Fellowship, 1962. p. 1206;
    Judaism and Christian Beginnings. Samuel Sandmel (Oxford University Press, New York: 1978). Copyright © 1978 by Samuel Sandmel. pp. 169, 171, 173.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 9:03:57 AM PDT · 190 of 448
    Edward Watson to Godzilla

    Nonsense. I find it intriguing a military intelligence guy confuses authority with supremacy.

    So, when you were in the military, your superiors were ONTOLOGICALLY superior to you?

    Is your joke of a president ONTOLOGICALLY SUPERIOR to you just because he has authority over you?

    If this is how you do analysis, no wonder you’re no longer in the military.

    Dishonorable discharge, eh?

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 7:02:44 AM PDT · 186 of 448
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    First of all, throwing the label “polytheism” is just name-calling and intellectually shallow. To Jews and Muslims, faiths with strict monotheism, the Christian Trinity is polytheistic.

    Thus the term is relative with no fixed definition.

    Secondly, if we’re polytheistic so is the Bible since it clearly describes the existence of entities called gods who are ruled by Eloheim or YHWH. This is why scholars describe the earliest Hebrew thought as using the Divine Council model.

    The evidences that the Divine Council is authentic early biblical thought is so overwhelming that most legitimate religious scholars freely admit it. Here’s a representative sample. None of these sources are LDS btw.

    The Anchor Bible Dictionary. (6 Volumes). Editor-in-Chief: David Noel Freedman. (Doubleday, New York). Copyright © 1992 by Doubleday. 1:249-252; 835; 2:214-217; 3:238,302; 4:43,922,1004-1010; 5:986; 6:129,156-157,510-511;
    The Triumph of Elohim. From Yahwisms to Judaisms. Ed. Diana Vikander Edelman. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). © 1995 Kok Pharos Publishing House, Kampen, the Netherlands. This edition published 1996 through special arrangement with Kok Pharos by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. pp.28 f.2, 30-31,36-38,40-43,60-63,65,71,80,91;
    The Early History of God. Yahweh and Other Deities in Ancient Israel. Mark S. Smith. (Harper and Row Publishers, San Francisco). Copyright © 1990 Mark S. Smith. pp. 9-10,26,101,114 e#138,165;
    The New Interpreter’s Bible. (In 12 Volumes). (Abingdon Press, Nashville). Vol 1 © 1994. Vol 4 © 1996. Both by Abingdon Press. 1:272-274; 4:347,792,1006-1007,1035, 1093;
    The Illustrated Bible Dictionary. In three parts. (Inter-Varsity Press. Tyndale House Publishers. Hodder and Stoughton. Sydney and Auckland). © The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, 1980. p. 1474;
    The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible. Including the Apocrypha, with General Articles. Ed. Charles M. Layman. (Abingdon Press, Nashville.) Copyright © 1971 by Abingdon Press. 14th Printing, 1992. pp. 285,263,279;
    Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament. (15 Volumes). Editors: G. Johannes Botterweck, Helmer Ringgren & Heinz Josef Fabry. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyrights © 1974-1997 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 1:254,258,282; 5:519-520;
    Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. (10 Volumes). Eds: Gerhard Kittle & Gerhard Friedrich. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1964-1976 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 8:347-349;
    The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary. Gen. Ed. J. Achtemeier. (Harper, San Francisco). Copyright © 1985,1996 by The Society of Biblical Literature. pp. 276,1054;
    The Jerome Biblical Commentary. Edited by Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer and Roland E. Murphy. Two volumes in one. (Prentice-Hall, Inc. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey). © 1968 by Prentice-Hall, Inc. 2:20 (1); 6:74 (8); 16:17 (8); 22:9 (A); 35:26 (6), 46 (1), 74 (Pref-2), 98 (Pref-2,6-7);
    Dictionary of the Bible. Ed. James Hastings. Rev. Edition by Frederick C. Grant and H. H. Rowley. (Charles Scribner’s Sons, New York). Copyright © 1963 T&T Clark and Charles Scribner’s Sons. pp. 32,134,334;
    A History of God. The 4000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Karen Armstrong. (Alfred A. Knopf, New York. 1994). Copyright © 1993 by Karen Armstrong. pp. 50-51;
    Mercer Dictionary of the Bible. Gen. Ed. Watson E. Mills. (Mercer University Press. Macon, Georgia). Copyright © 1990 Mercer University Press, Macon, Georgia. Second and Corrected Printing, July 1991. pp. 176-177, 581,845;
    New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis. Gen. Ed. William A. VanGemeren. (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1997 by William A. VanGemeren. 1:375-376;
    The Expositor’s Bible Commentary. (12 Volumes) With the NIV. Gen. Ed. Frank E. Gæbelein. The Zondervan NIV Bible Library. 2.5.1. (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1989-1997 The Zondervan Corporation. Job. Intro 8; 1:6-12,20; 34:1; Ps 82:1;
    Dictionary of the Bible. John L. MacKenzie. S.J. (Collier Books, MacMillan Publishing Company, New York). Copyright © 1965 by MacMillan Publishing Company. pp. 30, 316, 830;
    A New Standard Bible Dictionary. Edited by Melancthon W. Jacobus, Elbert C. Lane & Andrew C. Zenos. (Funk and Wagnalls Company, New York). Third Revised Edition. Copyright 1936 by Funk & Wagnalls Company. pp. 46-47;
    The Religious Background of the Bible. J. N. Schofield. (Thomas Nelson and Sons Ltd, London: 1944). p. 181;
    The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary. Rev. Ed. Allen C. Myers. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1987 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. p. 55;
    The New Layman’s Bible Commentary. In One Volume. Ed: G. C. D. Howley; F. F. Bruce & H. L. Ellison. (Regency Reference Library. Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Copyright © 1979 by Pickering & Inglis LTD, Glasgow Scotland under the title Bible Commentary for Today. pp. 308, 618, 659;
    The New Bible Dictionary. Organizing Editor: J.D. Douglas. (William. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan). © The Inter-Varsity Fellowship, 1962. p. 1206;
    Judaism and Christian Beginnings. Samuel Sandmel (Oxford University Press, New York: 1978). Copyright © 1978 by Samuel Sandmel. pp. 169, 171, 173.

    You’re welcome.

  • Why are climate scientists losing the American public?

    03/14/2010 6:54:08 AM PDT · 28 of 58
    Edward Watson to ricks_place

    In answer to the article title:

    Look out the window at all the global warming on the ground!!!

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 6:39:13 AM PDT · 184 of 448
    Edward Watson to Godzilla

    Baloney.

    Equating polygamy with a perceived inferiority of women is an unwarranted assumption.

    I find it amusing that you would know more about what *I* believe than me.

    My wife stays at home while I run my business. I don’t think she is inferior. Are you now claiming anyone who agrees with McConkie thinks homemakers are inferior? Furthermore, since when has McConkie’s writings been Scripture to the LDS? Another strawman.

    Why do LDS women in Utah have a higher than average use of anti-depressants? What exactly is the cause? Your constant psychoanalysis of the negative self-image of LDS women is highly dubious since the most likely cause is stress relief. Since Utah is predominantly LDS, its alcohol consumption is dead last in the US. Why? Because the church expressly prohibits alcohol whereas anti-depressants have no explicit prohibition. So, to an LDS wishing to relieve stress while abiding by the church’s teachings; what others normally take to relieve stress, namely alcohol, is a non-starter but anti-depressants work just as well and carries no explicit ban. Get a prescription and viola! Stress relief via Zoloft.

    Are you honest enough to admit I’m right?

    It is stressful raising large number of children (friends of ours who are Evangelicals have five children - the wife is a homemaker, a registered nurse, but is taking psychotropic medication - she told us why and it has nothing to do with feeling inferior - it’s for stress). LDS women have limited time for relaxation, shoulder a greater burden of raising the children due to the father’s constant absence from the home, lack time to hang out with friends.

    Heck, I was supposed to hang out with a buddy last night but had to cancel since my wife wanted to spend time with me. When we go on family vacations and I want to go to the East Coast and she wants to go to California we compromise; we go to California.

    As one who has lived within the LDS faith for my entire adult life, I can’t think of any LDS women who think they are inferior to men. I know my wife will just laugh in my face if I ever suggested it (pssst, don’t tell her).

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 6:02:31 AM PDT · 183 of 448
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    No, the NT clearly describes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as “God” but it avoids using the formulas used to define the threeness of the Godhead that originated from Greek Philosophy which resulted in the Traditional “Trinity.”

    Biblical Triad yes, Trinitarian no.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/13/2010 7:10:22 PM PST · 180 of 448
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    Adultery = bad.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/13/2010 7:09:31 PM PST · 179 of 448
    Edward Watson to SZonian

    Perhaps because your question was on evidence we LDS use to support our belief Christ is God.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/13/2010 7:31:03 AM PST · 169 of 448
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    (1) Book of Mormon. Title Page ... And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God.

    (2) 2 Ne 9:20-21 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it. And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.

    (3) 2 Ne 11:7 For if there be no Christ there be no God: and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fullness of his own time.

    (4) 2 Ne 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God.

    (5) Mosi 3:5-8 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases. And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men. And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and abominations of his people. And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

    (6) Mosi 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

    (7) Mosi 7:27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth.

    (8) Mosi 26:23,26 For it is I that taketh upon me the sins of the world; for it is I that hath created them; and it is I that granteth unto him that believeth unto the end a place at my right hand ... And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed.
    (9) Mosi 27:30-31 I rejected my Redeemer, and denied that which had been spoken of by our fathers; but now that they may foresee that he will come, and that he remembereth every creature of his creating, he will make himself manifest unto all. Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.

    (10) Alma 42:15 And now the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

    (11) Hela 8:22-23 Our father Lehi was driven out of Jerusalem because he testified of these things, and also almost all of our fathers, even down to this time; yea, they have testified of the coming of Christ, and have looked forward, and have rejoiced in his day which is to come. And behold, he is God, and he is with them, and he did manifest himself unto them, that they were redeemed by him; and they gave unto him glory, because of that which is to come.

    (12) 3 Ne 9:15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.

    (13) 3 Ne 11:14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

    (14) 3 Ne 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

    (15) Morm 3:21 And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the very Christ and the very God.

    (16)Eth 2:12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.

    (17) D&C 18:33 And I, Jesus Christ, your Lord and your God, have spoken it.

    (18) D&C 19:1,4,15-20 I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world ... And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless ... Therefore I command you to repent - repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your suffering be sore - how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. For behold, I, God have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which sufferings caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit - and would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink - Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my spirit.

    (19) D&C 34:1 My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer.

    (20) D&C 35:1-2,8 Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever. I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one ... For I am God, and mine arm is not shortened; and I will show miracles, signs, and wonders, unto all those who believe on my name.

    (21) D&C 38:1,3 Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I AM, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made ... The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes; I am the same which spake, and the world was made, and all things came by me.

    (22) D&C 45:1-3 Hearken, O ye people of my church, to whom the kingdom has been given; hearken ye and give ear to him who laid the foundation of the earth, who made the heavens and all the hosts thereof, and by whom all things were made which live, and move, and have a being. And again I say, hearken unto my voice, lest death shall overtake you; in an hour when ye think not the summer shall be past, and the harvest ended, and your souls not saved. Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him-

    (23) D&C 66:13 Verily, thus saith the Lord your God, your Redeemer, even Jesus Christ. Amen.

    (24) D&C 93:10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/13/2010 7:28:16 AM PST · 168 of 448
    Edward Watson to Godzilla

    No, I stand by my statement. My church has NEVER taught that women are inferior. Your arguments are just strawmen - citing the writings of LDS leaders, especially those of the 19th century, does NOT make LDS doctrine.

    As I’ve pointed out repeatedly over the years; LDS doctrine is only what is found in our Scriptures and in official proclamations by the LDS leadership. The same things indubitably holds true in your church and in ALL OTHER churches.

    Can you point out a single passage in the Latter-day Scriptures where we teach women are inherently inferior to women? Of course not. You have to resort to the personal writings and opinions of certain LDS leaders. I’ve no doubt if I did the same to you concerning your church’s defense of slavery in the 19th century or why women couldn’t become ministers; you would protest that those statements were only their personal opinion and have nothing to do with your church’s official stance even though they were official proclamations.

    Right?

    That is the HONEST thing to do.

    And yet, I see strawmen and non sequiturs in most of your arguments. “outrageously egotistical and sexist”? That’s an argument without foundation. So today’s moral sensibilities are eternal truths and will not be viewed as naive and ignorant by our descendants hundreds of years from now?

    What does usage of prescription drugs by women have to do with the belief they are treated as inferior? There are enough stresses in women’s lives, especially LDS women with the emphasis on taking time every month to visit and provide service to each other, to justify taking medication. I take prescription drugs every day to stave off the grim reaper while my wife takes none. Do you seriously think such usage makes me believe I’m being treated as an inferior?

    Perhaps you’re referring to psychiatric medication, the drug of choice of combat veterans, first responders, stock brokers, and business executives? If so, then you’re saying elevated use of these psychotropic medication means the patient needs it because they are considered inferior?

    Are you serious?!

    As for using the word “never” - I use it when I’m absolutely certain of what I’m saying. I don’t pretend my church hasn’t changed some of its doctrines over the years - it has and I don’t find doctrinal modification to be fatal when it corrects a misperception.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/13/2010 6:55:28 AM PST · 166 of 448
    Edward Watson to colorcountry

    Milk before meat? “A Christian would never do so.”

    Then you are ignorant of what the Bible teaches:

    1 Cor 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with MILK, and not with MEAT: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

    Heb 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of MILK, and not of strong MEAT. For every one that useth MILK is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong MEAT belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    1 Pet 2:1-2 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere MILK of the word, that ye may grow thereby.

    The principle of teaching people milk before the meat is biblical and is just common sense. Basics before deep concepts. You do not teach a child calculus until after he has mastered the basics of mathematics.

    If you were a Mormon for 45 years then you should know better. Protestantism has NOTHING to offer other than a simplistic view of salvation using a criteria that, if applied honestly, saves the Mormon just as well as it saves the Protestant. After all if membership in a church doesn’t save, only an acceptance of Christ as one’s Savior; then Mormons are also saved because we fully accept Christ as God, as God’s only Begotten Son, as the only way to heaven, and so forth. There is NO biblical teaching about Christ we reject. Not one. And you, as one who supposedly lived as a Mormon for 45 years, SHOULD KNOW that.

    As a Mormon, I’ve no doubt if you stay in your current Protestant church, worship and adore Christ, and strive to be a good person that you will go to your heaven when you die. Static eternal bliss is what you want and I’m sure you’re going to get it. That’s the MOST you can expect. For me, that’s the LEAST I can expect provided I stay a faithful follower of Christ as a Mormon. The MOST I can expect is exaltation. Thus, a Mormon has nothing to gain and the possibility of exaltation to lose by leaving the church. Why be upset at this? You reject outright the notion of exaltation, so surely, my portrayal of your heaven as static eternal bliss cannot be offensive. After all, if there’s a possibility of growth, given an open-ended eternity, exaltation is inevitable.

    As for your suicide literalism of Second Isaiah’s exclusivity, why not acknowledge the three interwoven concepts of Isa 40-48:

    (1) The falsity and uselessness of idols and the gods they represent (Isa 40:18-21; 41:22-24,26,29; 42:8,17; 43:12; 44:9-20; 45:20; 46:1-2,5-7; 48:5).

    (2) The certainty of the uniqueness of Jehovah, who is the only God (Isa 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5-7,18,21-22; 46:9).

    (3) The fact that it was only Jehovah who created the heavens and the earth (40:12,26,28; 42:5; 44:24; 45:8-12,18; 48:13).

    By arranging these three thoughts and their relationships with each other we find that in every single instance when Jehovah says there aren’t any gods beside him, before him or after him, or he doesn’t know of any other gods; these denials are always in close proximity with the other two main thoughts of these nine chapters.

    What this means is it is dishonest to take the exclusivity declarations out of context. It is especially so when you use it in blithe disregard to the New Testament’s repeated claim that Christ’s true followers are transformed into replicas of him and share his oneness with the Father.

    The New Testament’s description of the Sanctified, Christ’s true followers, leaves no other interpretation than deification (which is why the Church Fathers repeatedly taught it at least 150 times). Here are several hundred passages showing deification awaits Christ’s true followers (I can provide explanations why I selected each passage so if you don’t understand why I use them, feel free to ask and I’ll explain). Taken as a whole, it shows the LDS Doctrine of Exaltation to be overwhelmingly biblical:

    1. The Sanctified Are Transformed into Replicas of the Glorified Jesus Christ

    (1) Rom 8:29 The sanctified are molded into the same image as Jesus Christ. Whatever the glorious resurrected Jesus is; the sanctified become like him.
    (2) 1 Cor 15:43,48-49 We are created after the image of the earthly man, Adam, but the sanctified will be further transformed into the image of the resurrected and glorified Jesus Christ.
    (3) 2 Cor 3:18 When we [the sanctified] look in a mirror, we see reflected back the glory of God and are transformed into that same image, from glory to [additional] glory. We are changed into the same image Jesus is in, from glory to glory. If we are transformed into the same glorious image God is comprised of, we can become “God/Gods/gods” ourselves by receiving a “share”of the glory of God. (cf. Gal 2:20).
    (4) Gal 4:19 Paul claimed to be like a woman in labor for the sake of these members until they reach the stage where they are transformed into images of Christ.
    (5) Eph 4:11-15 The sanctified will become perfect based upon the template of the perfected Jesus. The glorious immortal Christ is the standard or measurement for those who will be perfected. Jesus Christ’s perfection make him “True God” and the sanctified are supposed to grow into the “die” or mold Christ is the template of, making themselves replicas of Christ.
    (6) Eph 4:24 The new man is created after the image of God.
    (7) Phil 3:20-21 Our citizenship is in heaven. Jesus will change our corruptible (lowly) bodies into replicas of his glorious body.
    (8) Col 3:10 The sanctified [new man] is created after God’s appearance. The elect are holy and beloved by God. In other words, the sanctified in the next life resemble God, are glorious and holy beings, beloved by God (Col 3:4,10,12). “This transformation has God’s image for its model.”
    (9) 1 Jn 2:29-3:3 The righteous are born of God and are called the children of God. They will resemble Jesus Christ at his coming. All who have this hope will purify themselves just as Christ is pure.
    (10) Heb 6:12-20 Jesus is the forerunner. This isn’t about Jesus being the first to be resurrected since the book of Hebrews only discusses his resurrection at the end of the book (Heb 13:20). He is the first and pioneered the way for others to follow [just as he is the first to be resurrected (1 Cor 15:20)]. He is the first kind of “new humanity” that has both “God” and “Man” natures. The sanctified imitate Christ (1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1; 1 Th 1:6) and become what he became. This promise is the hope the true followers of Christ have.

    2. The Sanctified Have the Same “God” Nature of the Father and Son

    (John 15:1-11,16; Acts 17:29; 1 Cor 10:16-17; 1 Cor 15:43,48-49; 2 Cor 8:9; Gal 4:7; Heb 2:10-3:1; Heb 3:14; Heb 12:6-10: 1 Pet 1:23; 1 Pet 2:4-5; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 1:9; 2 Cor 13:14; Phil 2:1; 1 Jn 1:3-4; 1 Jn 1:6-7; 1 Jn 3:9-10; Rev 3:4-5)

    3. The Sanctified become “One” with the Members of the Godhead

    ([cf. John 10:30; John 17:11; John 17:22] John 17:11,21-23; 1 Cor 6:17; 1 Cor 12:12-14,19-20; Heb 3:14; 1 Jn 1:3; 1 Cor 10:16-17)

    4. The Sanctified Interpenetrate with the Members of the Godhead

    ([cf. John 10:38; John 13:31-32; John 14:7-13,20; John 17:21-23; 2 Cor 5:19] John 6:56; John 14:17-23,28; John 15:1-11,16; John 17:21-26; Acts 17:28; Rom 6:3-11; Rom 8:1-2,9-13; Rom 8:39; Rom 12:5; Rom 13:14; 1 Cor 1:9,30; 1 Cor 8:6; 1 Cor 10:16-17; 1 Cor 16:24; 2 Cor 5:15-21; 2 Cor 6:16; 2 Cor 13:3-5; Gal 2:20; Gal 3:27-28; Gal 4:6; Gal 4:19; Gal 5:6; Eph 1:6-11; Eph 2:5-6; Eph 2:10; Eph 2:13-18; Eph 3:17; Eph 4:6; Phil 2:1; Phil 2:13; Phil 3:9; Col 1:21-22; Col 1:27-28; Col 2:6-10; Col 3:3; Col 3:11; 1 Th 1:1; 1 Th 2:14; 1 Th 4:14,16; 2 Th 1:1; 2 Tim 2:1; Jas 4:5; 1 Jn 2:23-28; 1 Jn 3:24; 1 Jn 4:4-16; 1 Jn 5:12; 1 Jn 5:20; Jude 1:1)

    5. The Sanctified Share Christ’s Transformation (Old Man/New Man)

    (Rom 6:3-11; Rom 7:4-6; 2 Cor 4:10-17; 2 Cor 5:17; 2 Cor 13:4; Gal 2:19-20; Gal 5:24; Gal 6:14; Eph 2:5-6; Eph 3:16-20; Eph 4:22-24; Phil 3:9-10; Col 1:24; Col 3:1; Col 3:9-10; 2 Tim 2:11)

    6. Christ is the “Head”; the Sanctified are the “Body”

    (John 11:52; 1 Cor 12:12-27; Rom 12:4-8; Eph 1:22-23; 4:4,12-16,25; 5:23; Col 1:18-22; 2:10,19; 3:15; Acts 9:4-5; 22:8; 26:14-15 [Saul was persecuting Jesus when he was persecuting the church - Acts 7:58-8:3; 9:1-2; 22:4-5; 26:9-12]).

    Does this imagery imply the head has an ontologically different nature than the body; or does it imply the members must have complete unity with one another and with Christ, with the church following the directions of Christ [just like a body follows the directions that come from the head]?

    The head and the body of any creature share a common nature. One’s head can’t be more “human” than one’s body. A dog’s head isn’t more “dog” than its body. It isn’t possible for a head to be completely united to a body if their natures are irreconcilable. We know the “head” has a “God” nature and a “man” nature. We also know the “body” has a “man” nature. Despite having two different natures (God and man), the “head” has complete unity with the “body,” making the body share whatever nature the “head” has.

    The imagery of Jesus Christ’s unity with his true followers as that of a head with a body implies whatever nature the head has, the body has. If the head has both “God” and “man” natures; so does the body, which is comprised of his true followers.

    Having Christ in us and being in Christ means we have perfect unity and “oneness” with him, by having faith in him and by being completely obedient to him (1 Jn 3:24). The Holy Ghost is our constant companion and dwells within us. We are in the justified state and become sanctified, making the Father and Son dwell in us and we in them. We are then transformed into copies of what they are, having glorious, immortal bodies and sharing their “God” nature, power, authority, glory and attributes.

    7. Christ is the “Groom”; the Sanctified are the “Bride”

    Christ’s relationship with the church is described as him being the groom and his church is his bride (Matt 22:1-14; 25:1-13; Mark 2:19-20; Luke 5:34-35; 12:36; John 3:29; Rom 7:1-6; 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:21-33; Rev 19:7-9; 21:2,9; 22:17; D&C 58:11).

    A husband and wife are “one flesh” (Gen 2:24; Mal 2:14-15; Matt 19:5-6; Mark 10:7-9; Eph 5:31). The woman was created from man’s side (Gen 2:21-23) to be his partner and equal, not to be an inferior creature in comparison to the man. No matter how wicked and adulterous a wife may be, it still doesn’t make her nature/species different from her husband. Marriage is only possible between members of the same species. Describing a particular person as being married to a member of another species is ridiculous since marriage brings the implication of ontological similarity and unity.
    Despite the description of God being the husband of Israel or Christ is the groom of the church is metaphorical, it doesn’t change the fact that such a metaphor implies complete unity and similar nature, which isn’t possible if the nature of God and man were irreconcilable.

    8. The Sanctified Have the Fullness of God

    ([cf. Col 1:19; 2:9] John 1:12-13,16; Eph 1:22-23; Eph 3:19; Eph 4:13; Col 2:9-10)

    9. The Sanctified Will Be Glorified

    (1 Sam 2:7-8; Ps 73:23-28; Matt 13:43; John 17:21-23; Rom 2:6-7,10; Rom 3:23; Col 1:27; Rom 5:2; Rom 9:23,26; 1 Th 2:12; 2 Th 2:13-14; 2 Pet 1:3-4; Rom 8:14-21,29-33; Rom 15:7; 2 Cor 3:7-18; 2 Cor 4:17; Eph 1:18; Col 3:4; 1 Cor 2:6-7; 2 Tim 2:10-12; Heb 2:10; 1 Pet 1:7; 1 Pet 4:13-14; 1 Pet 5:1-10)

    10. The Sanctified Will Be Perfected

    (Matt 5:48; 2 Cor 13:11; Matt 19:21; 2 Cor 13:9; Gal 3:3; Heb 10:14; Eph 4:11-15; Phil 3:10-21; Col 1:21-23,27-28; Col 4:12; Jas 1:4; Heb 7:11,19; Heb 9:8-15; Heb 10:1; Heb 12:23; 1 Pet 5:10)

    11. The Sanctified are Heirs

    ([cf. Matt 21:38/Mark 12:7/Luke 20:14; Heb 1:1-4] Luke 12:32; Luke 22:29; Rom 8:17; Gal 4:1-7,28-31; Eph 1:11-14,18; Heb 6:12-20; Acts 20:32; Acts 26:18; Gal 3:29; Eph 3:6; Eph 5:5; Col 1:12; Col 3:24; Tit 3:7; Heb 3:14; Heb 6:12; Heb 9:15; Heb 11:7-9; 1 Pet 1:3-5; 1 Pet 3:7,9; Rev 21:7)

    12. The Sanctified Receive “All Things”

    ([cf. Matt 11:27; John 3:35; John 13:3; John 16:15; John 17:10] Luke 12:41-44; Rom 8:32; 1 Cor 3:21-23; 2 Cor 4:15; 2 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 6:17; 2 Pet 1:3; Rev 21:7)

    13. The Sanctified Will Rule and Reign

    (Luke 12:32; Luke 22:29-30; 1 Cor 4:8; Eph 2:5-7; 2 Tim 2:10-12; 2 Tim 4:8; Jas 1:12; 1 Pet 5:4; Rev 1:6; Rev 3:20-21; Rev 5:10; Rev 20:4; Rev 22:5)

    14. The Sanctified Are Holy, Pure, and Sinless

    (Heb 12:10; Lev 11:44-45; Rom 6:19; Rev 22:11; 1 Cor 1:2,30; 2 Cor 5:21; Eph 2:19-22; Eph 5:26-27; Col 1:12; 2 Th 1:10; Heb 2:11; Heb 3:1; Heb 10:10,14; Heb 10:19)

    15. The Sanctified are Adopted by Christ

    (Rom 8:9-39; Rom 9:3-8,22-26; 2 Cor 6:14-18; Gal 3:26-29; Gal 4:5-7; Eph 1:5)

    16. The Sanctified are Known as the Children of God

    (Matt 5:9; Matt 5:44-45; Luke 20:36; John 11:52; Rom 8:16,21; Rom 9:8; Gal 3:26; Eph 2:19; Phil 2:15; Heb 3:6; 1 Jn 2:29-3:3; 1 Jn 3:9-10; 1 Jn 5:1-4; Rev 21:7).

    17.The Sanctified can receive this Transformation because we are the Spirit Offspring of God, with Christ as the Firstborn of us all

    (We are the offspring of God: Heb 12:5-9; Acts 17:29; Luke 3:38; Ps 82:6; John 20:17; Heb 2:10-12; John 15:1-11,16; Rom 8:29; Col 1:15; Heb 1:6. Christ is the Firstborn [prototokos]: Rom 8:29; Col 1:15; Col 1:18; Rev 1:5; Heb 1:6; Heb 11:28; Heb 12:23; Matt 1:25; Luke 2:7. We are his Brethren: Rom 8:29; Heb 2:11-12,17)