Free Republic 3rd Quarter Fundraising Target: $85,000 Receipts & Pledges to-date: $30,772
36%  
Woo hoo!! And the first 36% is in!! Thank you all very much!!

Posts by Edward Watson

Brevity: Headers | « Text »
  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 5:31:05 PM PDT · 318 of 448
    Edward Watson to darkwing104

    Words sure do have meaning. As a student of history, I am too aware that genocides occur because people have been conditioned into viewing others as subhuman or unworthy of existence. Words condition people into justifying terrible evil because their god wills it or the victims deserve their fate because they are outsiders or different.

    The constant demonization and misrepresentation of Mormons has already poisoned millions of minds in the US and elsewhere. Just as the propaganda against the Jews resulted in the Holocaust in Europe, “Mormons are a non-Christian cult” is the first step into portraying us as foreigners or outsiders that will lead to another Holocaust if the thin restraint of our civilization disappears.

    Why not just get it over and done with and start killing us Mormons just because we believe differently than you? After all, wouldn’t the world be a better place without us “cultists?”

    The current propaganda against us will lead in that direction. So-called “Christians” will once again butcher the outsiders in the name of God. I’ve no doubt if the United States suffers a civilizational collapse that areas with large Evangelical and Baptist populations will resort to exterminating Mormons, and other undesirables like Jehovah’s Witnesses, thinking they’re doing God a favor.

    The old, “Well, we never told anyone to kill them” is a pathetic excuse since the poison and hatred towards Mormons was planted long ago in their hearts to their everlasting condemnation.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:56:18 PM PDT · 288 of 448
    Edward Watson to Godzilla

    You know, Godzilla, you really need to stop this distortion. I’ve repeatedly addressed your arguments. Claiming I’ve avoided them is dishonest. I know, I know, the usual players here will side with you but the posting history shows otherwise.

    YOU, not me, distorted Mormonism’s view on women. YOU, not me, ignores points. Did you address my pointing out the obvious that you’re confusing authority with superiority? No you didn’t.

    I’ve spent hours and hours of my extremely valuable time replying to you and the other anti-Mormons on this forum this past week. I really have better things to do than engage in religious debates - I discontinued writing Mormon apologetics for the precise reason that I simply do NOT care any more. I get dragged in on this forum because I simply cannot tolerate the constant lying and misrepresentation you and the others do against my faith. I know such demonization is the first step towards justification of genocide and if not confronted, bad things will eventually happen all over again just because of religious intolerance.

    So now, using the “IF” qualifier is invalid, just because your feelings were hurt? Baloney. Reading into my jab to infer it was a condemnation of your “alleged” military service? How did that happen?

    Also, why are you frothing at the mouth? You constantly engage in belittling me and my fellow Mormons, but when your credibility is questioned; oh! How dare he!

    Come to think of it, are you really a military veteran or just one of those phonies who were against the war that were paraded before the media? After all, you’re expecting me and everyone else to believe you’re a vet. Well, how would we know you’re telling the truth? Anyone can claim to be anything here.

    It really is quite simple. STOP LYING and MISREPRESENTING my faith. I do not do it to your faith; don’t do it to mine.

    My interests are elsewhere. So take your alleged righteous indignation, pretend your red herring gives you a great moral victory, and get on with your life.

    Lastly, I know my writing style 12 years ago was atrocious - I make no apologies for whatever I wrote in my 20s. Bye boyo.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:28:43 PM PDT · 256 of 448
    Edward Watson to colorcountry

    I’m still waiting for your response. I provided several hundred passages demonstrating the New Testament teaches the Sanctified are going to be deified. I also pointed out your entire milk re meat thingy contradicts the Bible. Who exactly between us is attacking the messenger “without facts to back up their statements?”

    As I’ve said before, I DO NOT CARE to convert people. My church cares, I do not. Join if you want; leave if you want. I simply do not care.

    What I do care about is not allowing those who lie and distort the true teachings of Mormonism to get away with it without challenge.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:22:33 PM PDT · 250 of 448
    Edward Watson to mrreaganaut

    Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote since I did use a qualifier, and I never condemned him for his military service.

    As usual, par for the course - a deliberate misrepresentation of what I wrote. Sadly, why am I not surprised?

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:19:59 PM PDT · 247 of 448
    Edward Watson to reaganaut

    Where exactly have I been dishonest?

    Please provide specific examples.

    As usual, all you anti-Mormons do is misrepresent others.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:18:27 PM PDT · 245 of 448
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    Your opinion and I simply do not care what you think of me.

    If you cannot grasp the significance of using qualifiers, then what’s the point of talking with you?

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:15:40 PM PDT · 243 of 448
    Edward Watson to reaganaut

    You know, you really need to read what I write better. I used the “IF” qualifier for my observation concerning his distortion of authority and superiority.

    Making the assumption I slammed him for his military service is just silly, especially since I have immense respect for the US military and have been encouraging my teenage sons to serve in the US armed forces despite being Canadian.

    Just as 90% of Americans and Canadians do not serve in the military, neither did I. I did serve an LDS mission. I wish I went into the military, but things happened and the opportunity passed.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:07:40 PM PDT · 238 of 448
    Edward Watson to reaganaut

    Absolutely correct. I used them in a book I wrote back in 1998. Just cut and pasted, but still relevant. The biblical text doesn’t change - the Divine Council passages will always remain.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 4:04:41 PM PDT · 236 of 448
    Edward Watson to Godzilla

    Well good for you then. Since I qualified my statement with “IF” and you wisely sidestepped my observation that authority and superiority are not the same thing; I consider the issue settled. Your interpretation is wrong. Period. You know it and I know it.

    Even your red herring of portraying my post as a slam against your military service doesn’t speak well of your character. Admittedly, it does credit to your intelligence since the usual anti-Mormon players got suckered as evidenced by the righteous indignation against me for saying something I did NOT say. But then, that’s only to be expected in these here parts. Well played.

    I did not and do not condemn your service - I admire it. In fact, I’ve been encouraging my sons to serve in the US military despite being Canadians. I did not serve and I’ve always regretted it. Both my father and grandparents served in WWII. My father was shot on four occasions and injured by mortar fire once. Tough guy.

    So, what have we learned in our brief exchange? I have a thin skin when it comes to dishonesty and you have a thin skin when the jab hits close to home.

    Welcome to the human race. Perhaps now we’ve crossed the Rubicon and a more honest and respectful dialog can occur.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 9:07:35 AM PDT · 191 of 448
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    I provided you with around 50 references from the best biblical scholars in the world who ALL AGREE the earliest portions of the Bible taught the Divine Council, where Eloheim (and later YHWH) ruled the council of the gods.

    Here they are again - if you can’t be bothered checking up just one of these references; that then tells me your competency and your honesty.

    The Anchor Bible Dictionary. (6 Volumes). Editor-in-Chief: David Noel Freedman. (Doubleday, New York). Copyright © 1992 by Doubleday. 1:249-252; 835; 2:214-217; 3:238,302; 4:43,922,1004-1010; 5:986; 6:129,156-157,510-511;
    The Triumph of Elohim. From Yahwisms to Judaisms. Ed. Diana Vikander Edelman. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). © 1995 Kok Pharos Publishing House, Kampen, the Netherlands. This edition published 1996 through special arrangement with Kok Pharos by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. pp.28 f.2, 30-31,36-38,40-43,60-63,65,71,80,91;
    The Early History of God. Yahweh and Other Deities in Ancient Israel. Mark S. Smith. (Harper and Row Publishers, San Francisco). Copyright © 1990 Mark S. Smith. pp. 9-10,26,101,114 e#138,165;
    The New Interpreter’s Bible. (In 12 Volumes). (Abingdon Press, Nashville). Vol 1 © 1994. Vol 4 © 1996. Both by Abingdon Press. 1:272-274; 4:347,792,1006-1007,1035, 1093;
    The Illustrated Bible Dictionary. In three parts. (Inter-Varsity Press. Tyndale House Publishers. Hodder and Stoughton. Sydney and Auckland). © The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, 1980. p. 1474;
    The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible. Including the Apocrypha, with General Articles. Ed. Charles M. Layman. (Abingdon Press, Nashville.) Copyright © 1971 by Abingdon Press. 14th Printing, 1992. pp. 285,263,279;
    Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament. (15 Volumes). Editors: G. Johannes Botterweck, Helmer Ringgren & Heinz Josef Fabry. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyrights © 1974-1997 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 1:254,258,282; 5:519-520;
    Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. (10 Volumes). Eds: Gerhard Kittle & Gerhard Friedrich. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1964-1976 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 8:347-349;
    The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary. Gen. Ed. J. Achtemeier. (Harper, San Francisco). Copyright © 1985,1996 by The Society of Biblical Literature. pp. 276,1054;
    The Jerome Biblical Commentary. Edited by Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer and Roland E. Murphy. Two volumes in one. (Prentice-Hall, Inc. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey). © 1968 by Prentice-Hall, Inc. 2:20 (1); 6:74 (8); 16:17 (8); 22:9 (A); 35:26 (6), 46 (1), 74 (Pref-2), 98 (Pref-2,6-7);
    Dictionary of the Bible. Ed. James Hastings. Rev. Edition by Frederick C. Grant and H. H. Rowley. (Charles Scribner’s Sons, New York). Copyright © 1963 T&T Clark and Charles Scribner’s Sons. pp. 32,134,334;
    A History of God. The 4000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Karen Armstrong. (Alfred A. Knopf, New York. 1994). Copyright © 1993 by Karen Armstrong. pp. 50-51;
    Mercer Dictionary of the Bible. Gen. Ed. Watson E. Mills. (Mercer University Press. Macon, Georgia). Copyright © 1990 Mercer University Press, Macon, Georgia. Second and Corrected Printing, July 1991. pp. 176-177, 581,845;
    New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis. Gen. Ed. William A. VanGemeren. (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1997 by William A. VanGemeren. 1:375-376;
    The Expositor’s Bible Commentary. (12 Volumes) With the NIV. Gen. Ed. Frank E. Gæbelein. The Zondervan NIV Bible Library. 2.5.1. (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1989-1997 The Zondervan Corporation. Job. Intro 8; 1:6-12,20; 34:1; Ps 82:1;
    Dictionary of the Bible. John L. MacKenzie. S.J. (Collier Books, MacMillan Publishing Company, New York). Copyright © 1965 by MacMillan Publishing Company. pp. 30, 316, 830;
    A New Standard Bible Dictionary. Edited by Melancthon W. Jacobus, Elbert C. Lane & Andrew C. Zenos. (Funk and Wagnalls Company, New York). Third Revised Edition. Copyright 1936 by Funk & Wagnalls Company. pp. 46-47;
    The Religious Background of the Bible. J. N. Schofield. (Thomas Nelson and Sons Ltd, London: 1944). p. 181;
    The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary. Rev. Ed. Allen C. Myers. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1987 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. p. 55;
    The New Layman’s Bible Commentary. In One Volume. Ed: G. C. D. Howley; F. F. Bruce & H. L. Ellison. (Regency Reference Library. Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Copyright © 1979 by Pickering & Inglis LTD, Glasgow Scotland under the title Bible Commentary for Today. pp. 308, 618, 659;
    The New Bible Dictionary. Organizing Editor: J.D. Douglas. (William. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan). © The Inter-Varsity Fellowship, 1962. p. 1206;
    Judaism and Christian Beginnings. Samuel Sandmel (Oxford University Press, New York: 1978). Copyright © 1978 by Samuel Sandmel. pp. 169, 171, 173.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 9:03:57 AM PDT · 190 of 448
    Edward Watson to Godzilla

    Nonsense. I find it intriguing a military intelligence guy confuses authority with supremacy.

    So, when you were in the military, your superiors were ONTOLOGICALLY superior to you?

    Is your joke of a president ONTOLOGICALLY SUPERIOR to you just because he has authority over you?

    If this is how you do analysis, no wonder you’re no longer in the military.

    Dishonorable discharge, eh?

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 7:02:44 AM PDT · 186 of 448
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    First of all, throwing the label “polytheism” is just name-calling and intellectually shallow. To Jews and Muslims, faiths with strict monotheism, the Christian Trinity is polytheistic.

    Thus the term is relative with no fixed definition.

    Secondly, if we’re polytheistic so is the Bible since it clearly describes the existence of entities called gods who are ruled by Eloheim or YHWH. This is why scholars describe the earliest Hebrew thought as using the Divine Council model.

    The evidences that the Divine Council is authentic early biblical thought is so overwhelming that most legitimate religious scholars freely admit it. Here’s a representative sample. None of these sources are LDS btw.

    The Anchor Bible Dictionary. (6 Volumes). Editor-in-Chief: David Noel Freedman. (Doubleday, New York). Copyright © 1992 by Doubleday. 1:249-252; 835; 2:214-217; 3:238,302; 4:43,922,1004-1010; 5:986; 6:129,156-157,510-511;
    The Triumph of Elohim. From Yahwisms to Judaisms. Ed. Diana Vikander Edelman. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). © 1995 Kok Pharos Publishing House, Kampen, the Netherlands. This edition published 1996 through special arrangement with Kok Pharos by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. pp.28 f.2, 30-31,36-38,40-43,60-63,65,71,80,91;
    The Early History of God. Yahweh and Other Deities in Ancient Israel. Mark S. Smith. (Harper and Row Publishers, San Francisco). Copyright © 1990 Mark S. Smith. pp. 9-10,26,101,114 e#138,165;
    The New Interpreter’s Bible. (In 12 Volumes). (Abingdon Press, Nashville). Vol 1 © 1994. Vol 4 © 1996. Both by Abingdon Press. 1:272-274; 4:347,792,1006-1007,1035, 1093;
    The Illustrated Bible Dictionary. In three parts. (Inter-Varsity Press. Tyndale House Publishers. Hodder and Stoughton. Sydney and Auckland). © The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, 1980. p. 1474;
    The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible. Including the Apocrypha, with General Articles. Ed. Charles M. Layman. (Abingdon Press, Nashville.) Copyright © 1971 by Abingdon Press. 14th Printing, 1992. pp. 285,263,279;
    Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament. (15 Volumes). Editors: G. Johannes Botterweck, Helmer Ringgren & Heinz Josef Fabry. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyrights © 1974-1997 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 1:254,258,282; 5:519-520;
    Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. (10 Volumes). Eds: Gerhard Kittle & Gerhard Friedrich. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1964-1976 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 8:347-349;
    The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary. Gen. Ed. J. Achtemeier. (Harper, San Francisco). Copyright © 1985,1996 by The Society of Biblical Literature. pp. 276,1054;
    The Jerome Biblical Commentary. Edited by Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer and Roland E. Murphy. Two volumes in one. (Prentice-Hall, Inc. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey). © 1968 by Prentice-Hall, Inc. 2:20 (1); 6:74 (8); 16:17 (8); 22:9 (A); 35:26 (6), 46 (1), 74 (Pref-2), 98 (Pref-2,6-7);
    Dictionary of the Bible. Ed. James Hastings. Rev. Edition by Frederick C. Grant and H. H. Rowley. (Charles Scribner’s Sons, New York). Copyright © 1963 T&T Clark and Charles Scribner’s Sons. pp. 32,134,334;
    A History of God. The 4000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Karen Armstrong. (Alfred A. Knopf, New York. 1994). Copyright © 1993 by Karen Armstrong. pp. 50-51;
    Mercer Dictionary of the Bible. Gen. Ed. Watson E. Mills. (Mercer University Press. Macon, Georgia). Copyright © 1990 Mercer University Press, Macon, Georgia. Second and Corrected Printing, July 1991. pp. 176-177, 581,845;
    New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis. Gen. Ed. William A. VanGemeren. (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1997 by William A. VanGemeren. 1:375-376;
    The Expositor’s Bible Commentary. (12 Volumes) With the NIV. Gen. Ed. Frank E. Gæbelein. The Zondervan NIV Bible Library. 2.5.1. (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1989-1997 The Zondervan Corporation. Job. Intro 8; 1:6-12,20; 34:1; Ps 82:1;
    Dictionary of the Bible. John L. MacKenzie. S.J. (Collier Books, MacMillan Publishing Company, New York). Copyright © 1965 by MacMillan Publishing Company. pp. 30, 316, 830;
    A New Standard Bible Dictionary. Edited by Melancthon W. Jacobus, Elbert C. Lane & Andrew C. Zenos. (Funk and Wagnalls Company, New York). Third Revised Edition. Copyright 1936 by Funk & Wagnalls Company. pp. 46-47;
    The Religious Background of the Bible. J. N. Schofield. (Thomas Nelson and Sons Ltd, London: 1944). p. 181;
    The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary. Rev. Ed. Allen C. Myers. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1987 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. p. 55;
    The New Layman’s Bible Commentary. In One Volume. Ed: G. C. D. Howley; F. F. Bruce & H. L. Ellison. (Regency Reference Library. Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Copyright © 1979 by Pickering & Inglis LTD, Glasgow Scotland under the title Bible Commentary for Today. pp. 308, 618, 659;
    The New Bible Dictionary. Organizing Editor: J.D. Douglas. (William. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan). © The Inter-Varsity Fellowship, 1962. p. 1206;
    Judaism and Christian Beginnings. Samuel Sandmel (Oxford University Press, New York: 1978). Copyright © 1978 by Samuel Sandmel. pp. 169, 171, 173.

    You’re welcome.

  • Why are climate scientists losing the American public?

    03/14/2010 6:54:08 AM PDT · 28 of 58
    Edward Watson to ricks_place

    In answer to the article title:

    Look out the window at all the global warming on the ground!!!

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 6:39:13 AM PDT · 184 of 448
    Edward Watson to Godzilla

    Baloney.

    Equating polygamy with a perceived inferiority of women is an unwarranted assumption.

    I find it amusing that you would know more about what *I* believe than me.

    My wife stays at home while I run my business. I don’t think she is inferior. Are you now claiming anyone who agrees with McConkie thinks homemakers are inferior? Furthermore, since when has McConkie’s writings been Scripture to the LDS? Another strawman.

    Why do LDS women in Utah have a higher than average use of anti-depressants? What exactly is the cause? Your constant psychoanalysis of the negative self-image of LDS women is highly dubious since the most likely cause is stress relief. Since Utah is predominantly LDS, its alcohol consumption is dead last in the US. Why? Because the church expressly prohibits alcohol whereas anti-depressants have no explicit prohibition. So, to an LDS wishing to relieve stress while abiding by the church’s teachings; what others normally take to relieve stress, namely alcohol, is a non-starter but anti-depressants work just as well and carries no explicit ban. Get a prescription and viola! Stress relief via Zoloft.

    Are you honest enough to admit I’m right?

    It is stressful raising large number of children (friends of ours who are Evangelicals have five children - the wife is a homemaker, a registered nurse, but is taking psychotropic medication - she told us why and it has nothing to do with feeling inferior - it’s for stress). LDS women have limited time for relaxation, shoulder a greater burden of raising the children due to the father’s constant absence from the home, lack time to hang out with friends.

    Heck, I was supposed to hang out with a buddy last night but had to cancel since my wife wanted to spend time with me. When we go on family vacations and I want to go to the East Coast and she wants to go to California we compromise; we go to California.

    As one who has lived within the LDS faith for my entire adult life, I can’t think of any LDS women who think they are inferior to men. I know my wife will just laugh in my face if I ever suggested it (pssst, don’t tell her).

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/14/2010 6:02:31 AM PDT · 183 of 448
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    No, the NT clearly describes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as “God” but it avoids using the formulas used to define the threeness of the Godhead that originated from Greek Philosophy which resulted in the Traditional “Trinity.”

    Biblical Triad yes, Trinitarian no.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/13/2010 7:10:22 PM PST · 180 of 448
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    Adultery = bad.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/13/2010 7:09:31 PM PST · 179 of 448
    Edward Watson to SZonian

    Perhaps because your question was on evidence we LDS use to support our belief Christ is God.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/13/2010 7:31:03 AM PST · 169 of 448
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    (1) Book of Mormon. Title Page ... And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God.

    (2) 2 Ne 9:20-21 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it. And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.

    (3) 2 Ne 11:7 For if there be no Christ there be no God: and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fullness of his own time.

    (4) 2 Ne 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God.

    (5) Mosi 3:5-8 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases. And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men. And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and abominations of his people. And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

    (6) Mosi 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

    (7) Mosi 7:27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth.

    (8) Mosi 26:23,26 For it is I that taketh upon me the sins of the world; for it is I that hath created them; and it is I that granteth unto him that believeth unto the end a place at my right hand ... And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed.
    (9) Mosi 27:30-31 I rejected my Redeemer, and denied that which had been spoken of by our fathers; but now that they may foresee that he will come, and that he remembereth every creature of his creating, he will make himself manifest unto all. Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.

    (10) Alma 42:15 And now the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

    (11) Hela 8:22-23 Our father Lehi was driven out of Jerusalem because he testified of these things, and also almost all of our fathers, even down to this time; yea, they have testified of the coming of Christ, and have looked forward, and have rejoiced in his day which is to come. And behold, he is God, and he is with them, and he did manifest himself unto them, that they were redeemed by him; and they gave unto him glory, because of that which is to come.

    (12) 3 Ne 9:15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.

    (13) 3 Ne 11:14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

    (14) 3 Ne 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

    (15) Morm 3:21 And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the very Christ and the very God.

    (16)Eth 2:12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.

    (17) D&C 18:33 And I, Jesus Christ, your Lord and your God, have spoken it.

    (18) D&C 19:1,4,15-20 I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world ... And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless ... Therefore I command you to repent - repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your suffering be sore - how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. For behold, I, God have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which sufferings caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit - and would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink - Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my spirit.

    (19) D&C 34:1 My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer.

    (20) D&C 35:1-2,8 Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever. I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one ... For I am God, and mine arm is not shortened; and I will show miracles, signs, and wonders, unto all those who believe on my name.

    (21) D&C 38:1,3 Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I AM, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made ... The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes; I am the same which spake, and the world was made, and all things came by me.

    (22) D&C 45:1-3 Hearken, O ye people of my church, to whom the kingdom has been given; hearken ye and give ear to him who laid the foundation of the earth, who made the heavens and all the hosts thereof, and by whom all things were made which live, and move, and have a being. And again I say, hearken unto my voice, lest death shall overtake you; in an hour when ye think not the summer shall be past, and the harvest ended, and your souls not saved. Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him-

    (23) D&C 66:13 Verily, thus saith the Lord your God, your Redeemer, even Jesus Christ. Amen.

    (24) D&C 93:10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/13/2010 7:28:16 AM PST · 168 of 448
    Edward Watson to Godzilla

    No, I stand by my statement. My church has NEVER taught that women are inferior. Your arguments are just strawmen - citing the writings of LDS leaders, especially those of the 19th century, does NOT make LDS doctrine.

    As I’ve pointed out repeatedly over the years; LDS doctrine is only what is found in our Scriptures and in official proclamations by the LDS leadership. The same things indubitably holds true in your church and in ALL OTHER churches.

    Can you point out a single passage in the Latter-day Scriptures where we teach women are inherently inferior to women? Of course not. You have to resort to the personal writings and opinions of certain LDS leaders. I’ve no doubt if I did the same to you concerning your church’s defense of slavery in the 19th century or why women couldn’t become ministers; you would protest that those statements were only their personal opinion and have nothing to do with your church’s official stance even though they were official proclamations.

    Right?

    That is the HONEST thing to do.

    And yet, I see strawmen and non sequiturs in most of your arguments. “outrageously egotistical and sexist”? That’s an argument without foundation. So today’s moral sensibilities are eternal truths and will not be viewed as naive and ignorant by our descendants hundreds of years from now?

    What does usage of prescription drugs by women have to do with the belief they are treated as inferior? There are enough stresses in women’s lives, especially LDS women with the emphasis on taking time every month to visit and provide service to each other, to justify taking medication. I take prescription drugs every day to stave off the grim reaper while my wife takes none. Do you seriously think such usage makes me believe I’m being treated as an inferior?

    Perhaps you’re referring to psychiatric medication, the drug of choice of combat veterans, first responders, stock brokers, and business executives? If so, then you’re saying elevated use of these psychotropic medication means the patient needs it because they are considered inferior?

    Are you serious?!

    As for using the word “never” - I use it when I’m absolutely certain of what I’m saying. I don’t pretend my church hasn’t changed some of its doctrines over the years - it has and I don’t find doctrinal modification to be fatal when it corrects a misperception.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/13/2010 6:55:28 AM PST · 166 of 448
    Edward Watson to colorcountry

    Milk before meat? “A Christian would never do so.”

    Then you are ignorant of what the Bible teaches:

    1 Cor 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with MILK, and not with MEAT: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

    Heb 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of MILK, and not of strong MEAT. For every one that useth MILK is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong MEAT belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    1 Pet 2:1-2 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere MILK of the word, that ye may grow thereby.

    The principle of teaching people milk before the meat is biblical and is just common sense. Basics before deep concepts. You do not teach a child calculus until after he has mastered the basics of mathematics.

    If you were a Mormon for 45 years then you should know better. Protestantism has NOTHING to offer other than a simplistic view of salvation using a criteria that, if applied honestly, saves the Mormon just as well as it saves the Protestant. After all if membership in a church doesn’t save, only an acceptance of Christ as one’s Savior; then Mormons are also saved because we fully accept Christ as God, as God’s only Begotten Son, as the only way to heaven, and so forth. There is NO biblical teaching about Christ we reject. Not one. And you, as one who supposedly lived as a Mormon for 45 years, SHOULD KNOW that.

    As a Mormon, I’ve no doubt if you stay in your current Protestant church, worship and adore Christ, and strive to be a good person that you will go to your heaven when you die. Static eternal bliss is what you want and I’m sure you’re going to get it. That’s the MOST you can expect. For me, that’s the LEAST I can expect provided I stay a faithful follower of Christ as a Mormon. The MOST I can expect is exaltation. Thus, a Mormon has nothing to gain and the possibility of exaltation to lose by leaving the church. Why be upset at this? You reject outright the notion of exaltation, so surely, my portrayal of your heaven as static eternal bliss cannot be offensive. After all, if there’s a possibility of growth, given an open-ended eternity, exaltation is inevitable.

    As for your suicide literalism of Second Isaiah’s exclusivity, why not acknowledge the three interwoven concepts of Isa 40-48:

    (1) The falsity and uselessness of idols and the gods they represent (Isa 40:18-21; 41:22-24,26,29; 42:8,17; 43:12; 44:9-20; 45:20; 46:1-2,5-7; 48:5).

    (2) The certainty of the uniqueness of Jehovah, who is the only God (Isa 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5-7,18,21-22; 46:9).

    (3) The fact that it was only Jehovah who created the heavens and the earth (40:12,26,28; 42:5; 44:24; 45:8-12,18; 48:13).

    By arranging these three thoughts and their relationships with each other we find that in every single instance when Jehovah says there aren’t any gods beside him, before him or after him, or he doesn’t know of any other gods; these denials are always in close proximity with the other two main thoughts of these nine chapters.

    What this means is it is dishonest to take the exclusivity declarations out of context. It is especially so when you use it in blithe disregard to the New Testament’s repeated claim that Christ’s true followers are transformed into replicas of him and share his oneness with the Father.

    The New Testament’s description of the Sanctified, Christ’s true followers, leaves no other interpretation than deification (which is why the Church Fathers repeatedly taught it at least 150 times). Here are several hundred passages showing deification awaits Christ’s true followers (I can provide explanations why I selected each passage so if you don’t understand why I use them, feel free to ask and I’ll explain). Taken as a whole, it shows the LDS Doctrine of Exaltation to be overwhelmingly biblical:

    1. The Sanctified Are Transformed into Replicas of the Glorified Jesus Christ

    (1) Rom 8:29 The sanctified are molded into the same image as Jesus Christ. Whatever the glorious resurrected Jesus is; the sanctified become like him.
    (2) 1 Cor 15:43,48-49 We are created after the image of the earthly man, Adam, but the sanctified will be further transformed into the image of the resurrected and glorified Jesus Christ.
    (3) 2 Cor 3:18 When we [the sanctified] look in a mirror, we see reflected back the glory of God and are transformed into that same image, from glory to [additional] glory. We are changed into the same image Jesus is in, from glory to glory. If we are transformed into the same glorious image God is comprised of, we can become “God/Gods/gods” ourselves by receiving a “share”of the glory of God. (cf. Gal 2:20).
    (4) Gal 4:19 Paul claimed to be like a woman in labor for the sake of these members until they reach the stage where they are transformed into images of Christ.
    (5) Eph 4:11-15 The sanctified will become perfect based upon the template of the perfected Jesus. The glorious immortal Christ is the standard or measurement for those who will be perfected. Jesus Christ’s perfection make him “True God” and the sanctified are supposed to grow into the “die” or mold Christ is the template of, making themselves replicas of Christ.
    (6) Eph 4:24 The new man is created after the image of God.
    (7) Phil 3:20-21 Our citizenship is in heaven. Jesus will change our corruptible (lowly) bodies into replicas of his glorious body.
    (8) Col 3:10 The sanctified [new man] is created after God’s appearance. The elect are holy and beloved by God. In other words, the sanctified in the next life resemble God, are glorious and holy beings, beloved by God (Col 3:4,10,12). “This transformation has God’s image for its model.”
    (9) 1 Jn 2:29-3:3 The righteous are born of God and are called the children of God. They will resemble Jesus Christ at his coming. All who have this hope will purify themselves just as Christ is pure.
    (10) Heb 6:12-20 Jesus is the forerunner. This isn’t about Jesus being the first to be resurrected since the book of Hebrews only discusses his resurrection at the end of the book (Heb 13:20). He is the first and pioneered the way for others to follow [just as he is the first to be resurrected (1 Cor 15:20)]. He is the first kind of “new humanity” that has both “God” and “Man” natures. The sanctified imitate Christ (1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1; 1 Th 1:6) and become what he became. This promise is the hope the true followers of Christ have.

    2. The Sanctified Have the Same “God” Nature of the Father and Son

    (John 15:1-11,16; Acts 17:29; 1 Cor 10:16-17; 1 Cor 15:43,48-49; 2 Cor 8:9; Gal 4:7; Heb 2:10-3:1; Heb 3:14; Heb 12:6-10: 1 Pet 1:23; 1 Pet 2:4-5; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 1:9; 2 Cor 13:14; Phil 2:1; 1 Jn 1:3-4; 1 Jn 1:6-7; 1 Jn 3:9-10; Rev 3:4-5)

    3. The Sanctified become “One” with the Members of the Godhead

    ([cf. John 10:30; John 17:11; John 17:22] John 17:11,21-23; 1 Cor 6:17; 1 Cor 12:12-14,19-20; Heb 3:14; 1 Jn 1:3; 1 Cor 10:16-17)

    4. The Sanctified Interpenetrate with the Members of the Godhead

    ([cf. John 10:38; John 13:31-32; John 14:7-13,20; John 17:21-23; 2 Cor 5:19] John 6:56; John 14:17-23,28; John 15:1-11,16; John 17:21-26; Acts 17:28; Rom 6:3-11; Rom 8:1-2,9-13; Rom 8:39; Rom 12:5; Rom 13:14; 1 Cor 1:9,30; 1 Cor 8:6; 1 Cor 10:16-17; 1 Cor 16:24; 2 Cor 5:15-21; 2 Cor 6:16; 2 Cor 13:3-5; Gal 2:20; Gal 3:27-28; Gal 4:6; Gal 4:19; Gal 5:6; Eph 1:6-11; Eph 2:5-6; Eph 2:10; Eph 2:13-18; Eph 3:17; Eph 4:6; Phil 2:1; Phil 2:13; Phil 3:9; Col 1:21-22; Col 1:27-28; Col 2:6-10; Col 3:3; Col 3:11; 1 Th 1:1; 1 Th 2:14; 1 Th 4:14,16; 2 Th 1:1; 2 Tim 2:1; Jas 4:5; 1 Jn 2:23-28; 1 Jn 3:24; 1 Jn 4:4-16; 1 Jn 5:12; 1 Jn 5:20; Jude 1:1)

    5. The Sanctified Share Christ’s Transformation (Old Man/New Man)

    (Rom 6:3-11; Rom 7:4-6; 2 Cor 4:10-17; 2 Cor 5:17; 2 Cor 13:4; Gal 2:19-20; Gal 5:24; Gal 6:14; Eph 2:5-6; Eph 3:16-20; Eph 4:22-24; Phil 3:9-10; Col 1:24; Col 3:1; Col 3:9-10; 2 Tim 2:11)

    6. Christ is the “Head”; the Sanctified are the “Body”

    (John 11:52; 1 Cor 12:12-27; Rom 12:4-8; Eph 1:22-23; 4:4,12-16,25; 5:23; Col 1:18-22; 2:10,19; 3:15; Acts 9:4-5; 22:8; 26:14-15 [Saul was persecuting Jesus when he was persecuting the church - Acts 7:58-8:3; 9:1-2; 22:4-5; 26:9-12]).

    Does this imagery imply the head has an ontologically different nature than the body; or does it imply the members must have complete unity with one another and with Christ, with the church following the directions of Christ [just like a body follows the directions that come from the head]?

    The head and the body of any creature share a common nature. One’s head can’t be more “human” than one’s body. A dog’s head isn’t more “dog” than its body. It isn’t possible for a head to be completely united to a body if their natures are irreconcilable. We know the “head” has a “God” nature and a “man” nature. We also know the “body” has a “man” nature. Despite having two different natures (God and man), the “head” has complete unity with the “body,” making the body share whatever nature the “head” has.

    The imagery of Jesus Christ’s unity with his true followers as that of a head with a body implies whatever nature the head has, the body has. If the head has both “God” and “man” natures; so does the body, which is comprised of his true followers.

    Having Christ in us and being in Christ means we have perfect unity and “oneness” with him, by having faith in him and by being completely obedient to him (1 Jn 3:24). The Holy Ghost is our constant companion and dwells within us. We are in the justified state and become sanctified, making the Father and Son dwell in us and we in them. We are then transformed into copies of what they are, having glorious, immortal bodies and sharing their “God” nature, power, authority, glory and attributes.

    7. Christ is the “Groom”; the Sanctified are the “Bride”

    Christ’s relationship with the church is described as him being the groom and his church is his bride (Matt 22:1-14; 25:1-13; Mark 2:19-20; Luke 5:34-35; 12:36; John 3:29; Rom 7:1-6; 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:21-33; Rev 19:7-9; 21:2,9; 22:17; D&C 58:11).

    A husband and wife are “one flesh” (Gen 2:24; Mal 2:14-15; Matt 19:5-6; Mark 10:7-9; Eph 5:31). The woman was created from man’s side (Gen 2:21-23) to be his partner and equal, not to be an inferior creature in comparison to the man. No matter how wicked and adulterous a wife may be, it still doesn’t make her nature/species different from her husband. Marriage is only possible between members of the same species. Describing a particular person as being married to a member of another species is ridiculous since marriage brings the implication of ontological similarity and unity.
    Despite the description of God being the husband of Israel or Christ is the groom of the church is metaphorical, it doesn’t change the fact that such a metaphor implies complete unity and similar nature, which isn’t possible if the nature of God and man were irreconcilable.

    8. The Sanctified Have the Fullness of God

    ([cf. Col 1:19; 2:9] John 1:12-13,16; Eph 1:22-23; Eph 3:19; Eph 4:13; Col 2:9-10)

    9. The Sanctified Will Be Glorified

    (1 Sam 2:7-8; Ps 73:23-28; Matt 13:43; John 17:21-23; Rom 2:6-7,10; Rom 3:23; Col 1:27; Rom 5:2; Rom 9:23,26; 1 Th 2:12; 2 Th 2:13-14; 2 Pet 1:3-4; Rom 8:14-21,29-33; Rom 15:7; 2 Cor 3:7-18; 2 Cor 4:17; Eph 1:18; Col 3:4; 1 Cor 2:6-7; 2 Tim 2:10-12; Heb 2:10; 1 Pet 1:7; 1 Pet 4:13-14; 1 Pet 5:1-10)

    10. The Sanctified Will Be Perfected

    (Matt 5:48; 2 Cor 13:11; Matt 19:21; 2 Cor 13:9; Gal 3:3; Heb 10:14; Eph 4:11-15; Phil 3:10-21; Col 1:21-23,27-28; Col 4:12; Jas 1:4; Heb 7:11,19; Heb 9:8-15; Heb 10:1; Heb 12:23; 1 Pet 5:10)

    11. The Sanctified are Heirs

    ([cf. Matt 21:38/Mark 12:7/Luke 20:14; Heb 1:1-4] Luke 12:32; Luke 22:29; Rom 8:17; Gal 4:1-7,28-31; Eph 1:11-14,18; Heb 6:12-20; Acts 20:32; Acts 26:18; Gal 3:29; Eph 3:6; Eph 5:5; Col 1:12; Col 3:24; Tit 3:7; Heb 3:14; Heb 6:12; Heb 9:15; Heb 11:7-9; 1 Pet 1:3-5; 1 Pet 3:7,9; Rev 21:7)

    12. The Sanctified Receive “All Things”

    ([cf. Matt 11:27; John 3:35; John 13:3; John 16:15; John 17:10] Luke 12:41-44; Rom 8:32; 1 Cor 3:21-23; 2 Cor 4:15; 2 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 6:17; 2 Pet 1:3; Rev 21:7)

    13. The Sanctified Will Rule and Reign

    (Luke 12:32; Luke 22:29-30; 1 Cor 4:8; Eph 2:5-7; 2 Tim 2:10-12; 2 Tim 4:8; Jas 1:12; 1 Pet 5:4; Rev 1:6; Rev 3:20-21; Rev 5:10; Rev 20:4; Rev 22:5)

    14. The Sanctified Are Holy, Pure, and Sinless

    (Heb 12:10; Lev 11:44-45; Rom 6:19; Rev 22:11; 1 Cor 1:2,30; 2 Cor 5:21; Eph 2:19-22; Eph 5:26-27; Col 1:12; 2 Th 1:10; Heb 2:11; Heb 3:1; Heb 10:10,14; Heb 10:19)

    15. The Sanctified are Adopted by Christ

    (Rom 8:9-39; Rom 9:3-8,22-26; 2 Cor 6:14-18; Gal 3:26-29; Gal 4:5-7; Eph 1:5)

    16. The Sanctified are Known as the Children of God

    (Matt 5:9; Matt 5:44-45; Luke 20:36; John 11:52; Rom 8:16,21; Rom 9:8; Gal 3:26; Eph 2:19; Phil 2:15; Heb 3:6; 1 Jn 2:29-3:3; 1 Jn 3:9-10; 1 Jn 5:1-4; Rev 21:7).

    17.The Sanctified can receive this Transformation because we are the Spirit Offspring of God, with Christ as the Firstborn of us all

    (We are the offspring of God: Heb 12:5-9; Acts 17:29; Luke 3:38; Ps 82:6; John 20:17; Heb 2:10-12; John 15:1-11,16; Rom 8:29; Col 1:15; Heb 1:6. Christ is the Firstborn [prototokos]: Rom 8:29; Col 1:15; Col 1:18; Rev 1:5; Heb 1:6; Heb 11:28; Heb 12:23; Matt 1:25; Luke 2:7. We are his Brethren: Rom 8:29; Heb 2:11-12,17)

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/12/2010 3:04:58 PM PST · 112 of 448
    Edward Watson to colorcountry

    How do you know my Christ is not the same Christ who came to earth 2000, who died on the cross and rose from the dead?

    Such arrogance! Such hubris.

    Can you give a million dollars if you don’t have it? Can you give the flu to someone if you don’t have it? What then makes you think you can force God to accept your status as valid just on your say so?

    One cannot give what one doesn’t have.

    Also, just look at that distortion of the Scripture. Using “royal priests” to mean one does NOT need to receive ordinances from a person who holds the genuine priesthood.

    Who was Peter addressing? Christians of his time who were baptised and ordained by people who received the authority from Christ himself. Was he talking to you in the 21st century? No. Why then are you arrogantly claiming YOU are one of the “royal priests”? Were you baptised by someone who received his authority straight from Christ?

    Did you time travel from the first century to now?

    Typical.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/12/2010 2:57:01 PM PST · 104 of 448
    Edward Watson to Tennessee Nana

    Again with the sex.

    What is this obsession with sex anyways?

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/12/2010 2:54:33 PM PST · 102 of 448
    Edward Watson to Godzilla

    What other Christian Church in history has NOT viewed women as inferior to men? Can you honestly say YOUR church has NEVER viewed women as inferior, ever?

    I’ve repeatedly seen you craft arguments against my faith that is much more devastating to yours. This is just one of them.

    Lastly, as an ex-military intelligency guy, I find it remarkable at how easy you seem to disregard proper analysis of documents. Case in point is your misrepresentation of Heber Kimball. He wasn’t describing women as inferior; he was describing how the act of marriage doesn’t faze him just like buying a cow is no big deal. Since it takes two to tango, if you interpret his statement to mean women are inferior, then that would mean he thought of himself as inferior as well. After all, there can be no polygamous wife without having her married to a man.

    I’ve tended to avoid rude people, those who resort to ridicule instead of crafting a proper response. If you want to engage me in a conversation, be a professional, and maintain the standards that you learned in the military.

    I work with a lot of former officers in the US military - (even here in Canada, my entire team are Americans, only one of whom is not ex-military). Not once have I encountered one who treats a subject matter he disagrees with in such a disrespectful and dismissive manner.

    I do not believe Catholicism or Protestantism are correct, but I do not write about them the way you do concerning my faith. That’s just embarassing.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/12/2010 2:32:26 PM PST · 93 of 448
    Edward Watson to colorcountry

    How exactly will you be bonded? When and where did the earthly sealing that is recognized in heaven occur? You cannot give what you do not have.

    Only Protestants of the five branches of Christianity (and a minority of Protestants at that) believe in the priesthood of all believers or Christ miraculously gave his sealing power to others via a book that wouldn’t even exist in its present form until 350 years after his Ascension.

    The fact remains if the Protestant belief that “a church doesn’t save; only an acceptance of Christ saves”; then we Mormons have nothing to worry about since if acceptance of Christ as our Savior and center of being saves the Evangelical or Protestant; it will also save the Mormon. After all, membership in a church doesn’t save, right?

    OTOH, if Mormonism is true; the righteous Christian will go to heaven while the rightous Mormon will be exalted.

    I’m not afraid of going to hell - I accept Christ as my Lord and Savior. I’ve accepted him as God and the only way of salvation. I’ve taken upon myself his name. I’ve vowed to be his true follower and strive to live my life as such. One cannot claim to be his follower if one doesn’t even attempt to follow him.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/12/2010 2:09:52 PM PST · 90 of 448
    Edward Watson to Tennessee Nana

    I like it. Mormons do not believe in a “til death do us part” relationship. We believe the sealing bond of marriage continues in heaven. I truly and utterly adore and cherish my wife and have been fortunate that it is reciprocated. I do not want our marriage bond to be dissolved after we die. I do not want to see her in heaven but not be allowed to be with her just because our marriage bond was severed by death.

    I felt the same with my first wife. When she died, the emptiness was overwhelming and I didn’t think I could go on. My soul was empty and torn at her passing. Being married to great women makes me know that my life as a man is incomplete without being bonded to a woman who is better than me.

  • Ouch! Woman arrested for shaving 'bikini area' while driving

    03/12/2010 2:00:36 PM PST · 65 of 89
    Edward Watson to Red Badger

    I told my wife this story when I heard of it a few days ago. Needless to say, she got a kick out of it.

  • BYU devotional, Elder Glenn L. Pace: The divine nature and destiny of women

    03/12/2010 1:55:38 PM PST · 88 of 448
    Edward Watson to Tennessee Nana

    I stand by my post - women are inherently more spiritual than men. Just look around your church - I’m certain more women are faithful attendees. Women are much more charitable, they commit less crimes, and are much more humble and long suffering. They are more altruistic and more loving, especially to children not their own.

    Between the two sexes, I’ve no doubt we men are pricks and undeserving of our partners.

    Unlike Traditional Christianity, we’ve never interpreted the priesthood restriction to men as due to women being inferior or unworthy. We never viewed women as property, first owned by their father then by their husbands (which continues to this day in Islam, Sikhism, and Hinduism).

    Lastly, try not to fall in the trap of equating polygamy with some great evil. Marrying more than one wife is not the same as adultery. They are married. Just because modern western culture thinks polygamy is abhorrent doesn’t mean the Bible’s positive description and words of the practice are suddenly imaginary. Why is adultery, homosexuality, and serial polygamy (marriage, divorce, remarriage) ok in our society but how dare they get married to more than one partner at once!

    God himself told David, “I gave you your wives” - if God gives a man numerous wives, does that make God an evil God?

    The point is God is the boss and what he says goes. We simply have no right to dictate morality to him.

    What I find most ridiculous of all is we Mormons are condemned for practicing polygamy in the 19th century but the Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Pentecostal, and African Independent churches in Africa and Papua New Guinea have polygamous families in their congregations today, in the 21st century, and are never condemned.

    Hmmm, perhaps because of the racial double standard - they get a free pass just because they’re black?

  • Delvon J. Crockett, Unlucky Burglar, Killed by Homeowner with Ornamental Sword

    03/12/2010 11:03:24 AM PST · 39 of 72
    Edward Watson to NMEwithin

    Wow, I never heard of a sword defeating a gun before ...

  • Large Amounts of Moonshine Found in Kentucky

    03/11/2010 12:00:56 PM PST · 26 of 114
    Edward Watson to MikeWUSAF

    Moonshine in Kentucky? Dog barks, Scots wear kilts, and beavers have hair!

  • Scales of Justice: In Zurich, Even Fish Have a Lawyer

    03/06/2010 10:10:24 AM PST · 11 of 22
    Edward Watson to reaganaut1

    This is, without doubt, one of the best sentences I have ever read, and represents my sentiments exactly. With your permission, I’d like to use it in a book I’m writing on Civilizational Collapse: Baseline Survival Strategies. E-mail me.

  • FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate

    03/06/2010 6:27:11 AM PST · 16 of 46
    Edward Watson to paltz

    So, Glenn Beck was right???

  • What is the definition of 'anti-Mormon'? - Anti-Mormon Caucus (Just Kidding)

    03/05/2010 12:22:26 PM PST · 104 of 506
    Edward Watson to Tennessee Nana

    First of all, I apologize for denigrating you a few weeks ago. I shouldn’t have behaved so inappropriately.

    Secondly, I’ll answer all your questions HONESTLY. Can I expect you to be similarly honest and accept them as accurate depictions of genuine LDS beliefs? In other words, accept the fact that my answers and brief elaborations are accurate. I don’t expect you to convert, and neither do you expect to be convinced that my church is the true church. We both get happy.

    1. Mormons do NOT believe in the traditional description of the Trinity. We believe in the biblical Triad or threeness of the Godhead. We believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. These three separate and distinct entities are God by nature and share a oneness in a manner that cannot be imagined. We do not believe God is nonmaterial, is Mind, is three hypostates in one ousia (whatever that is). We believe God is a spirit being who dwells in an immortal material body just as we are spirit beings dwelling in mortal bodies.

    2. Mormons believe Jesus is God. The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants explicitly and repeatedly state Jesus is God incarnate, who was the Old Testament YHWH God of the Hebrews, who is from everlasting to everlasting, who is the Eternal God.

    3. Mormons believe Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin and death. We believe his Atonement, that mindless, terrifying substitution sacrifice STARTED in the Garden of Gethsemane. The agony he went through was so intense that he, despite being God, was so great he bled blood. His nature of being God and his nature of being sinless, allowed him to become our substitute. One sinless God is a fair substitute for an infinite number of sinful men. He, despite being the greatest of all, allowed himself the indignity of dying a slave’s death on the cross. He rose from the dead three days later, triumphing over death and now sits at the Father’s right hand.

    4. Mormons believe all humans are spirit OFFSPRING (genos) of God. The Bible describes us as his “genus” with Jesus as the firstborn (prototokos). Our physical bodies are his creation while our spirits (who we actually are) are his spirit offspring. This is why God made the unimaginable sacrifice of subjecting his only begotten Son Jesus Christ to the unimaginable torture of the Atonement. No sane entity, God or man, will subject their child to unimaginable torture for the sake of toys or mere creations. Christ’s sacrifice shows we’re much more important in God’s eyes than a mere creation.

    BECAUSE we’re God’s spirit offspring, we are given the opportunity to become like him. While we are not “God” by nature - only the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are God by nature; we become God or gods by Grace. How? Because Jesus Christ “bridged” the two separate natures. He was fully, 100% God and he was fully, 100% man. He was “God” from his Father and “Man” from his mother. Because of Christ’s incarnation as a human or member of the “Homo Sapiens” species; he shares whatever he has with his true followers. He is the Head while we are the Body. He is the Groom while we are the Bride. These descriptions denote a unity far beyond what one would expect between God and some of his creatures.

    We believe the Bible isn’t lying when it repeatedly describes the true followers are sharing Christ’s oneness or becoming like him. The early Church Fathers described this concept as THEOSIS no less than 150 times.

    Instead of just enjoying “eternal bliss;” his true followers become the “bene ha elohim,” the Sons and Daughters of God, enjoying eternal increase and eventually evolving to a point of becoming deified into the oneness of the Godhead.

    5. What’s the obsession with sex? Mormons believe men and women are equal. In fact, we believe women are naturally more righteous than men. This is why the Priesthood is given only to men since we need it in order to approach the spiritual level of women.

    6. Again with the sex. We believe God the Father is the literal father of the physical body of Jesus. We do NOT believe Mary had sex with God. All we are referring to is Jesus Christ’s PATERNITY. Where then did half his chromosomes come from? Where did his ability to reanimate after cellular decay originate? Or walk on water or heal the sick just by touching? He obviously wasn’t a clone since he possessed a different gender than Mary.

    7. Since we believe we’re all God’s spirit offspring with Christ as the Firstborn (prototokos); we believe Satan and the demons are also our siblings who rebelled against God’s plan and were cast out. Jesus and Satan are spirit siblings with each other and with us. We’re all one family. This is why Satan could demand God give him his power. God cast him out instead of merely pointing out to him that it wasn’t possible since he was only a creation.

    Furthermore, if Satan was only a creation of God; that then opens up the philosophical problem of theodical culpability - God then is responsible for all the evil Satan causes since he created him, and as an all-powerful being who knows the future; he then becomes responsible for Satan’s actions since he has perfect foresight.

    8. Mormons do NOT teach the Catholic Church is the “whore of Babylon.” We believe the distortions of the scriptures occured shortly after their creation. In the case of the New Testament, during the first and early second century. In the case of the Old Testament; much earlier as evidenced by the conflicting versions of biblical vorlages (e.g., Samaritan Pentatech, DSS Jeremiah, LXX, etc.).

    9. Well, since polygamy is the natural condition of humanity and only recently has fallen out of favor due to the triumph of monogamy since the 17th century; I find the entire issue quite silly. God explicitly approves of polygamy no less than six times in the Bible.

    also, again with the sex obsession ...

    10. Jesus said we must be born of water and of the spirit. Otherwise we cannot enter into God’s kingdom. We believe him thus believe in the practice of baptism.

    11. Your opinion and irrelevant.

    12. Belief in the pre-existence is the ONLY was to resolve one of the greatest problems facing Christian philosophy today: how to solve the problem of undeserved suffering if God is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful. If you believe that you were an adult spirit offspring of God who was given a choice to experience undeserved suffering in exchange for a greater good; God then maintains his omnibenevolent and omnipotent natures.

    13. I believe it. I can’t prove it but neither can you disprove it since we both weren’t there.

    14. It is hard to claim with a straight face that a religion that teaches Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God, who was born of the virgin Mary, who died on the cross for our sins, who was resurrected after three days and is the only way to heaven could be anything but a Christian faith.

    There! I’ve taken the time to answer all your questions. Can I expect a similar honest effort?

  • What is the definition of 'anti-Mormon'? - Anti-Mormon Caucus (Just Kidding)

    03/05/2010 11:05:54 AM PST · 75 of 506
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    Tell you what, why not surf my posting history and see my posts? I’ve provided chapters and verses, specifically replied to points, and not had my points responded.

    Before you accuse me of something; better verify if your accusation is accurate. That is the honest and, btw, “Christian” thing to do.

    I don’t have time, nor the inclination to engage in mindless debates, especially since I know from experience neither one is willing to budge from position. I’ll be wasting your time and you’ll be doing the same.

  • What is the definition of 'anti-Mormon'? - Anti-Mormon Caucus (Just Kidding)

    03/05/2010 11:01:39 AM PST · 73 of 506
    Edward Watson to Colofornian

    Sure, but make sure you get the context accurate:

    Christianity can be classified into FIVE distinct branches:

    1. Roman Catholic
    2. Eastern Christian
    3. Anglican/Independent Catholic
    4. Protestant
    5. Mormon

    Each of these branches have distinct families. For example, Protestantism can be separated into 24 families. Mormon can be separated into 4. Just as one shouldn’t confuse the Pentecostal with the Lutheran families; so shouldn’t one confuse the LDS with the Fundamentalist family of the Mormon branch of Christianity.

  • What is the definition of 'anti-Mormon'? - Anti-Mormon Caucus (Just Kidding)

    03/05/2010 10:51:16 AM PST · 70 of 506
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    Really? Why not surf my posts here? I’ve repeatedly pointed them out over the years, and have posted references HUNDREDS of times. Just a few weeks ago, I pointed out the distortion done by twisting our Gospel Standards book which was pointing out the pagan origins of many traditional theistic description of God that was done in the fourth century into an attack on all Christians FOR their faith in Jesus Christ.

    Now, if distorting a criticism on pagan Greek philosophy into an attack on believers in Christ FOR believing in Christ is not distortion; then what exactly is distortion?

  • What is the definition of 'anti-Mormon'? - Anti-Mormon Caucus (Just Kidding)

    03/05/2010 8:43:41 AM PST · 19 of 506
    Edward Watson to greyfoxx39

    Anti-Mormon = a person who distorts the true beliefs of Mormons and attacks and demonizes them BASED on the misrepresentation.

    Critic = Someone who condemns or opposes the true beliefs of Mormons, but doesn’t misrepresent them and, due to their integrity, accepts correction when learning the true beliefs.

    I have a huge problem with the former but none with the latter.

    The players on this forum have repeatedly lied and distorted our true beliefs. I frankly do not care if people join the LDS Church - I’ve moved beyond trying to convert people. If they want to join, fine; if they don’t want, no skin off my nose. What I do not tolerate are the lying and misrepresentation.

  • Obama Empty Suit- Leading an Army of Dead Men Walking

    02/26/2010 6:51:18 AM PST · 3 of 17
    Edward Watson to Yaacov

    FYI, “pushing very HARD” not “heard.”

  • Scientists find way to make cheap gas from coal

    02/24/2010 9:27:20 PM PST · 20 of 51
    Edward Watson to o_zarkman44

    Thanks for the heads up. At <$30/BOE; that’s cheaper than tar sand production.

  • Halo II: Mystery cloud

    02/22/2010 8:44:04 AM PST · 15 of 27
    Edward Watson to SpinnerWebb

    That’s disgusting and not appropriate for this forum.

  • Alert! Gardasil Vaccine Extremely Dangerous! Spread the Word!

    02/21/2010 6:25:38 AM PST · 38 of 95
    Edward Watson to Freedom'sWorthIt; All

    As one whose wife died from cervical cancer at just 41 years of age, leaving me with three small children, I wholeheartedly SUPPORT any vaccine that will lower the incidence of this horrible cancer by 70%. I do not wish on anyone the pain my wife and her family went through.

    As with ANY vaccine or medication, there will always be someone who gets an adverse reaction. But this must be placed in perspective. The total quantity of those harms is much LESS than those not getting the vaccine.

    Sure government heavyhandedness is oppressive but I guarantee REGRET would be even more painful if your daughter gets cervical cancer just because you were afraid the risks of the vaccine, despite a thousand or million times less than the disease, would harm her. Sure it is entirely possible your daughter may be one of the rare cases who is harmed by the vaccine, but the odds are significant against it.

    I spoke to my late wife’s oncologist shortly after Gardasil came out and he told me boys should also get the vaccine since it will also drastically lessen the likelihood of penile, anal, and other cancers. They were apparently still undergoing long-term trials and weren’t ready to start mass inoculations.

    One thing’s for sure, if and when ANY vaccine is developed that will prevent my children from getting cancer or heart disease or malaria or any other fatal disease that I will be among the first to obtain them. I’ve seen too much pain and suffering in my life to do otherwise.

  • Citi: China Sold Their Treasuries Because They Want To Buy Tons Of Gold

    02/19/2010 7:11:04 AM PST · 9 of 19
    Edward Watson to John.Galt2012

    He who has the guns can get the food AND the gold.

  • (Canadian) Parliament Report Sounds Alarm: Low Birth Rate + Ageing = Financial Crisis

    02/18/2010 5:26:31 PM PST · 16 of 22
    Edward Watson to wagglebee

    I’m currently visiting relatives in southern Calgary and was pleasantly surprised to learn the LDS or Mormon congregations in the area average over 4 children per family.

    Too bad the overall size of the LDS community is too small to make a difference to our demographic collapse.

    Still, I’m doing my part, 6 kids so far and hope to have another in a few years!

  • Starship pilots: speed kills, especially warp speed

    02/18/2010 5:13:19 PM PST · 109 of 134
    Edward Watson to RightOnline

    Lol!

  • Starship pilots: speed kills, especially warp speed

    02/18/2010 5:12:32 PM PST · 107 of 134
    Edward Watson to Sloth

    Which is called GENERAL Theory of Relativity. The SPECIAL Theory of Relativity is in relation to velocity.

  • Starship pilots: speed kills, especially warp speed

    02/18/2010 3:58:27 PM PST · 76 of 134
    Edward Watson to RightOnline

    Actually, it certainly is possible to travel close to the speed of light without subjecting the astronauts to fatal doses of radiation.

    This is done by having an intense magnetic field that deflects the atoms in front of the starship. If this is projected far enough and is strong enough; virtually all particles will be redirected along the lines of magnetic force.

    The shield will cause starship designs to be nonlinear, to keep the habitable sections away from the magnetic poles of the field, but that’s just engineering. After all, if the earth’s magnetic field shields us from harmful radiation; so too with a smaller, but much stronger field shield a starship.

  • Starship pilots: speed kills, especially warp speed

    02/18/2010 3:49:38 PM PST · 66 of 134
    Edward Watson to thesharkboy

    The faster an object’s velocity; the slower time passes. This is called Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity and has been proven to be true innumerable times by comparing atomic clocks. Perfectly synchronized atomic clocks will show differences if one is placed on a plane. The one that travelled, even at a modest subsonic speed, will show a slower time.

    This happens every day in particle accelerators. Sub-atomic particles with lifespans in the nanoseconds can last hundreds, even thousands of times longer when they are travelling close to the speed of light.

    It is easy to figure out the time dilation experienced by traveling objects. Divide the velocity of the object by the speed of light and square the results. Subtract the result from one and square root it. The final result will be the amount of slowing of time of the traveling object. For example, if an astronaut on a spaceship left earth at a constant velocity of 90% the speed of light (.9c) to a planet 10 light-years away, his velocity would be 270,000 kps and should be divided by the speed of light (300,000 kps) which comes out to .9. Square it (.9 x .9) = .81. Subtract from one (1 - .81) = .19. Get its square root = .4359. The Time Dilation of the spaceship = .4359, meaning, for the 10 light-year trip, the astronaut only experiences 43.59% of time that people on earth would experience. For the ten light-year trip, the astronaut only experiences the duration of the trip to last 4.359 years, whereas ten years would’ve passed on the earth.

    To reiterate, the closer an object approaches the speed of light; the slower time passes for it. It is certainly possible for a spaceship to travel 50,000 light years and only experience 10 years subjective time. Heck, it’s possible for a spaceship to travel across the entire universe of billions of light years and only experience a split second of time, if they are just a trillionth of a percentage below light speed.

  • 2009 Gospel Principles (MORMON) criticizes Christians as “false Christianity”

    02/17/2010 4:50:37 AM PST · 402 of 477
    Edward Watson to Elsie

    Why are you shouting all the time? You’d be more successful getting your point through if you’d just tone down.

    Do you win some kind of victory when people don’t want to talk with you?

    You remind me of those social justice radicals who shout people down and think they’ve won a great victory.

  • 2009 Gospel Principles (MORMON) criticizes Christians as “false Christianity”

    02/16/2010 3:19:55 PM PST · 309 of 477
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22
    It's not that, just an appeal to intellectual honesty. I find it grossly unfair that other Christians demand a standard against the Mormons that has no biblical basis. We admit we have unbiblical beliefs, but then so does every other branch and family of Christianity. Why should our unbiblical beliefs that do not contradict the Scriptures be grounds for condemning us to an eternity in hell when your unbiblical beliefs that do not contradict the Bible let you enjoy eternal bliss in heaven?

    We believe everything the Bible teaches but because we have a rational theology instead of a memorized theology; we do have the flexibility in our beliefs provided the speculation does not explicitly contradict official doctrine.

    This is why Mormonism is very easily defined: Whatever is true and whatever is right. We are obligated to accept whatever is demonstrably true regardless of the source since God is a God of Truth. If we're proven wrong, we are obligated to abandon what is false, no matter how cherished, and accept what is true. Note, that this isn't regarding the perception of what is true. It isn't based on someone’s interpretation of a passage. It doesn't prevent us from being mistaken on occasion.

    What it means is we are striving to accept more and more Truth.

  • 2009 Gospel Principles (MORMON) criticizes Christians as “false Christianity”

    02/16/2010 2:08:13 PM PST · 276 of 477
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    ??? Hardly. It simply isn’t possible to argue God is infinite, in the sense of self-existent, since the Bible never says so.

    Nice try, but no.

  • 2009 Gospel Principles (MORMON) criticizes Christians as “false Christianity”

    02/16/2010 1:38:55 PM PST · 269 of 477
    Edward Watson to ejonesie22

    Ok, let’s see if your point is valid:

    “Infinite” can mean (1) “indeterminate” like an endless number (e.g., the last decimal number of pi or the last number of 1/3 of 1), (2) “indefinite” (e.g., beginning or end of a sphere or the last second of an open universe) or (3) “complete / perfect.” Things that are incapable of improvement (e.g., the knowledge of God, the mercy and love of God).

    The word can only be found in three places in the AV:

    1) Job 22:5 Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?

    Eliphaz told Job his iniquities were infinite [“qets”].

    2) Ps 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite[“micpar”]

    You overlooked Nah 3:9:

    3) Nah 3:9 Ethiopia and Egypt were her strength, and it was infinite [“qatseh”]; Put and Lubim were thy helpers.

    The Hebrew words in these three passages are linked to another Hebrew word, “`ayin” which means “to be nothing, not exist.” The only time “ infinite” is used in reference to God is in Ps 147:5 which doesn’t use it in regards to his nature but to his UNDERSTANDING.

    In reality, these Hebrew words don’t convey “infinity” and are used many times for things that aren’t infinite.

    On the other hand, we Latter-day Saints agree with the idea of God’s infinity despite it can’t be found in the Bible since our Latter-day Scriptures repeatedly mention it:

    a) 2 Ne 1:10 But behold, when the time cometh that they shall dwindle in unbelief, after they have received so great blessings from the hand of the Lord—having a knowledge of the creation of the earth, and all men, knowing the great and marvelous works of the Lord from the creation of the world; having power given them to do all things by faith; having all the commandments from the beginning, and having been brought by his INFINITE goodness into this precious land of promise—behold, I say, if the day shall come that they will reject the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their Redeemer and their God, behold, the judgments of him that is just shall rest upon them.

    b) 2 Ne 9:7 Wherefore, it must needs be an INFINITE atonement—save it should be an INFINITE atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.

    c) 2 Ne 25:16 And after they have been scattered, and the Lord God hath scourged them by other nations for the space of many generations, yea, even down from generation to generation until they shall be persuaded to believe in Christ, the Son of God, and the atonement, which is INFINITE for all mankind—and when that day shall come that they shall believe in Christ, and worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands, and look not forward any more for another Messiah, then, at that time, the day will come that it must needs be expedient that they should believe these things.

    d) Alma 34:10,12,14 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an INFINITE and eternal sacrifice ... But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an INFINITE atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world. And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

    Jesus Christ performed an infinite atonement (Heb 7:25).

    e) Mosi 5:3 And we, ourselves, also, through the INFINITE goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things.

    f) Hela 12:1 And thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that the Lord in his great INFINITE goodness doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him.

    g) Moro 8:3 I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he, through his INFINITE goodness and grace, will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end.

    God’s righteousness is infinite.

    h) Mosi 28:4 And thus did the Spirit of the Lord work upon them, for they were the very vilest of sinners. And the Lord saw fit in his INFINITE mercy to spare them; nevertheless they suffered much anguish of soul because of their iniquities, suffering much and fearing that they should be cast off forever.

    God’s mercy is infinite.

    i) D&C 20:17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is INFINITE and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

    D&C 20:28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, INFINITE and eternal, without end. Amen.

    God is infinite.

    I find it interesting that the Latter-day Scriptures explicitly mention God, and all three members of the Godhead as being infinite whereas the Bible doesn’t mention God is infinite. Despite the word is absent in the Bible (in relation to God’s nature), it is used as a descriptive term in reference to God.

    The problem is the fact that since the Bible never uses the word in reference to God’s nature, any insistence by our opponents on using the word “infinite” against the Mormon concept of deity is untenable. All a Mormon needs to do to an opponent who claims “God is infinite” is ask where in the Bible is the word used in reference to God’s nature. Our advantage is the fact that the Latter-day Scriptures clearly refer to God as “infinite” even though it doesn’t define what “infinite” means. At least D&C 20:17,28 calls God infinite but where in the Bible does it say God is infinite and define what infinite means?

    The terms: First/Last; Alpha/Omega; everlasting to everlasting; eternal; etc. don’t necessarily mean infinity and when our opponents are asked to define “infinite” will invariably use philosophical ideas derived from Greek Philosophy. How do YOU know “infinite” must be defined in such a manner when it is absent in the Bible?

    As for using “olam” to mean self-existing:

    Gen 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting [OLAM] hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

    Hab 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting [OLAM] mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

    Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan; for an everlasting [OLAM] possession; and I will be their God.

    Gen 48:4 and said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting [OLAM] possession.

    Ex 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it forever [OLAM].

    2 Sam 7:13-16,29 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever [OLAM]. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever [OLAM] before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever [OLAM]... Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever [OLAM] before thee: for thou, O Lord GOD, hast spoken [it]: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever [OLAM].

    2 Sam 23:5 Although my house [be] not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting [OLAM] covenant, ordered in all [things], and sure: for [this is] all my salvation, and all [my] desire, although he make [it] not to grow.

    Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

    It is indisputable that the terms “everlasting, perpetual, forever, etc.” don’t automatically mean that the subject had no beginning or end and this is made even more clear when one examines the 440 times “`ôlam” appears in the OT.

    The Bible refers to hills and mountains as “everlasting” and “perpetual” while also teaching that the earth had a beginning (Gen 1-2). The Israelites are supposed to reside in Canaan forever (Gen 17:8; 48:4; Ex 32:13; etc.) but the earth is supposed to be destroyed in the future which would make such an arrangement impossible to fulfill. Despite the mountains and hills are perpetual and everlasting, they will still be destroyed when the earth passes away (Ps 102:26; Heb 1:10-11; 2 Pet 3:10-11; Rev 20:11). David’s dynasty was supposed to last forever but it only lasted for a couple of centuries (and only a couple of generations for unified Israel).

    So, God is OLAM but as the Bible proves, olam does not mean self-existent. Now what?