Free Republic

Jo, regarding your tag line, what translation are you using for Gen. 12.3? The word “Israel” isn’t there. God was speaking to Abram, and promised him:

“And I will bless them that bless thee [sing.—Abram] and curse him that curseth thee [sing.—Abram]: and in thee [sing.—Abram] shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Since both Jews and Arabs came out of Abram, this promise no more applies to Jews than Arabs. Both are Semitic people, and it’s possible that some Jews are just as anti-Semitic as some Arabs.

One last point: who cursed Jews more than anyone else? Clue: who cursed them throughout Mt. 23? I doubt that God cursed Jesus for that, and I’m sure you agree.

Thanks for reading, and considering,

The Israelis have never, and will never, trust anyone else with their defense since FDR knew of the holocaust and gave them no relief for fear of ant-Semitism, and they’re not about to start now.

DadGum, why all the mollycoddling around about it. Someone needs to stand up and say what he really thinks!

Too bad dueling is illegal. This could be settled in 10 minutes. Another case where an armed society is a polite society.

My great-grandfather, right after the “Civil” war, married an Indian lady. When someone in a bar insulted her, they went outside, and Grandpa stomped the man to death.

It’s too bad dueling is not still permitted. Todd could have taken care of this long ago.

Gee. Their transparency turned to gasoline, and there wasn’t enough to run a pissant’s motorscooter around a BB.

“Another area where we don’t really need scripture is in the area of sexual morality. In fact, we even have scriptures that tell us we don’t need a scripture to tell us that stuff is bad.”

Sexual morality is bad?

I guess I’d like to see the scripture teaching that. I thought it was sexual immorality that was bad.

“Why it doesn’t go forward, I can’t explain that. It’s troubling to me because we’ll suffer the consequences if we ignore our Constitution.”

We’re already suffering the consequences because we have been ignoring our constitution while most, if not all of us, have been alive.

Bertrand Russell said: “Outside human desires, there is no moral standard.”

I crush mosquitoes when they irritate me. May I also crush atheists when they irritate me?

Should I refrain from squashing them “for the welfare of society”? Who’s to say seeking the welfare of society is moral or not? Who’s to say that the very survival of society is moral or not?

Dariwnism measures goodness in terms of survival value

Will Durant wrote:

“If life is a struggle for existence in which the fittest survive, then strength is the ultimate virtue, and weakness the only fault. Good is that which survives, which wins; bad is that which gives way and fails.”

Bernardi, the German General and military writer:

“Might is at once the supreme right...War gives a biologically just decision.”

Here’s one you’ll like from Nietzsche:

“Man shall be trained for war, and woman for the recreation of the warrior: all else is folly.”

“Moral” atheists borrow from the creed of others. They may include mental giants, but they are moral pigmies.

Proud night to be a Red Raider. Now I can wear my Tech class ring and pick my nose with pride!

In your view, what was history’s most important event—the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus?

Thanks

We Don’t Have Just Two Choices

Hoards of both democrats and republicans aren’t impressed by the choice they have for president this year. Many on both sides are willing to crawl across broken glass, this time to avoid voting for their party’s candidate.

The two major parties, neither one of which are even mentioned in the Constitution, think they have us in a corner where we must vote for either Obama or McCain, or the other guy will win.

But it isn’t true; especially in states where it’s already a foregone conclusion who is going to win.

In Texas, everyone knows McCain will win our electoral votes, with or without your help. In California, everyone knows Obama will win theirs.

In such a state, would you like to accomplish something besides just voting for the lesser of two evils? Here’s how: vote for another candidate, even a write-in. The party doesn’t even matter, and it doesn’t involve starting a third party. It won’t affect the outcome in the Electoral College nor Supreme Court nominations nor shift the balance of the Court, but the two major parties will certainly notice the great disgust with the candidates they’ve given us and perhaps do better next time.

Think it over. You don’t have just two choices. Your vote can count even if you’re not impressed with either candidate.

Is the office “Speaker of the House” even in the constitution, or is that office a creation of House rules?

Can anyone help?

Thanks in advance

Somehow I missed part 6—can someone point me to it?

Thanks in advance.

Sorry, you’re too late. The debate’s over...

Thanks for posting this article.

I was going to Texas Tech in 1963, my wife needed the car (’60 VW Bug) for her job, so I was riding her bicycle to school. One of her little brothers had one of these and felt so embarassed at his big brother in law riding a bike, that he loaned it to me for a couple of years.

Good thing, too. Gas was 17.9 the whole two years I was there. Try as tho I might, couldn’t put $2 worth in the VW bug—of course, it wouldn’t pull a dead man outta bed

Bernard, have you tried reading on the exercise bike. Keeps me on it, makes the time fly, and the reading ain’t bad, either.

Gunner, I’ve thought about approaching you about something for some time. It’s a subject that is a little hard to broach, but since I consider you such real patriot, it’s got to be done. It’s a suggestion that I think would really increase your influence for the good, and cause you to be a lot more effective person. So here goes. Have you ever considered that if you would just come out and say what you really think, instead of beating around the bush all the time, how much more you would accomplish?

To make my advice it more explicit, I’m warning you if you won’t ever come out in the open and take a stand on some things, we’re going to have to find someone who will. This mealy-mouthed mollycoddling around all the time is getting old.

8-)

See Post #26. I gave them way back there.

I have no problem with your first three paragraphs. However, in your fourth, you say:

“The Good News of the Gospel is not about condemning Jews. It’s about reconciling to God through His Son. One won’t be able to use the sin of the Sanhedrin nor Judas Iscariot as an excuse.”

It’s a pity that Peter didn’t know this, because when he preached the gospel in Ac. 2, he said the “men of Israel...ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:”

F15, I believe the deed was done by the hand of lawless men, for the scriptures say so. When in the same sentence they also say, “Ye” did it, why can’t you believe that.

Or perhaps you’re right, and Peter didn’t know as much as you do about what the Gospel was. Shame on God for selecting him to preach the first gospel sermon in fact.

Again, we’re not arguing about what the Bible says here.

Thanks for your reponse, gscc.

You say:

“The Romans drove the nails into His hands - do you deny that?”

Not at all. I believe it, but Peter says that the Jews used the Romans to do it. Had it not been for the Jews, the Romans would have done no such thing. Hence, Peter said, “Ye men of Israel, hear these words... ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:” So, I believe the passage you quote, but you and Hagee don’t believe what Peter said.

You quote:

“Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst” (1 Timothy 1:15, NIV).

No problem here. I believe every syllable. Then you quote:

In Acts 3:17 Peter says, “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.”

Nor do I have a problem with what Peter says here, but your own proof-text says that the Jews did it! Do you and Hagee believe what your own proof-text says?

Then you say:

“Peter was quick to say who was implicated in the death of Jesus: “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together” (Acts 4:27). It doesn’t seem that many people were left out.”

You’re right, so why do you and Hagee leave the people of Israel out? Peter put ‘em in there. Why don’t you and Hagee put ‘em in there? Inquiring minds wanna know.

You say:

“You place the blame on the Jews - well for almost 2,000 years mainstream Christianity, Catholic and Protestant, took this same position—often accompanied by lethal brutality. Christ’s death to save of from our sins was set in stone from the foundation of the earth. Isaiah foretold it in the Old Testament:”

My friend, I couldn’t possibly care less if every person on the planet takes your position, it makes liars out of Peter and Paul. “Let God be found true, but every man a liar,” right? The only reason I place the blame on the Jews is because Peter and Paul did it in their preaching, in many of the very verses you quote. I have no axe to grind on this. If Peter and Paul hadn’t said it, I wouldn’t say it. However, when Hagee says that what Peter and Paul said is a lie, I can’t buy that, nor can anyone who believes in the inspired teaching of Peter and Paul. If I were like Hagee and thought Peter and Paul lied, why would would either one of us have any confidence in anything else Peter and Paul wrote? Why would you quote their teaching if you don’t believe what they plainly said?

You quote:

“... He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:5-6, NIV).

I believe every word. You’re the one that doesn’t believe what Peter and Paul said.

You finally say:

“Are you telling me that Christ died needlessly if only the Jews had decided to spare him?”

I haven’t done any speculation on this. Since God foretold that the Jews would reject the Messiah and kill him, that settles it for me, just as when Peter and Paul says the “men of Israel” and “the Jews” killed Jesus, in just those very words, that settles it for all of us who believe in the inspiration of the Bible.

Let me make this suggestion. This is not an intellectual exercise or game for me. If you can’t even admit that Peter and Paul both said that the men of Israel and the Jews killed Jesus, when everybody reading our words can read it in black and white in their own Bible, I’d like to terminate my part of this conversation, for there are too many people who actually care what the Bible says.

Again, we’ve not had an argument about what the Bible teaches. I’ve accepted every syllable you’ve quoted from the Bible. You’re the one that’s got the problem with what Peter and Paul said.

Thanks again for reading and considering.

FNU

You wrote:

“where does it say the Jews killed Him?”

I gave you the passages where Paul and Peter both said this, then you wrote:

“where does it say the Jews killed Him?”

Then I quoted them to you again, and you just dropped the point. It got so quiet you could hear a rat pee on cotton!

Wha’ happened? Does it just not matter what Peter and Paul said, speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

NOTE: We’re not arguing about what the Bible says! You now know what the Bible says, and whee it says it, don’t you? You may have been listening to Hagee so long you can’t accept what Paul and Peter say anymore.

I’ve found that it’s much better when my theology conflicts with the Bible, to change my theology, not just ignore the Bible.

Thanks for reading, and considering,

FNU

“I know there is a school that want to blame the Jews for killing Jesus. ... You miss the point of Christ’s sacrifice entirely if you blame the Jews.”

So, you think Peter and Paul were mistakenly in that school, and they missed the point of Christ’s sacrifice entirely,” while Hagee thinks they both told lies.

Real allegiance to Scripture I’m seein’ here, and that’s bein’ nice about it.

“where does it say the Jews killed Him?”

Peter: “Men of Isreal...ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay.”

Paul: “... the Jews; who both killed the Lord Jesus...”

“If you reject being part of the blood sacrifice of Yah’shua”

This is a complete change of subject. Address the one I addressed. Hagee says it’s a lie to say that the Jews killed Jesus. Both Peter and Paul said they did. If one rejects Hagee’s false statement, he’s not rejecting Christ’s sacrifice.

You don’t address the issue I did. Hagee says it’s a lie to say that the Jews killed Jesus. Both Peter and Paul said they did. One can’t believe both Hagee and Peter and Paul on this issue.

Take your pick, but we can’t have both.

“Hagee....one of the few clear thinkers in America.
You may not like what he says....but you’ll never catch him in a lie...”

So, which one of these is not telling the truth?

Hagee (In Defense of Israel, p. 125) – “One of those deadly New Testament myths is that the Jews killed Jesus, yet no justification can be found in the New Testament to support this lie.”

Peter, on Pentecost: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay”

Paul: I Thes. 2.14-15 – “For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews; who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men.”

Thanks for reading, and considering.

OF COURSE NOT! The two parties have fixed it so that conservatives can’t do anything, and they’re counting on the fact that we’re not imaginative or resourceful enough to do anything in the next 8 months to cross them up.

Shame is, they’re probably right.

Oh, wait a minute. Political parties are not even in the constitution, are they? Yet we think we’re just hung...

/sarc off

Thanks for your civil response, cva. When you say

“Then why worry about who put Christ on the cross?”

I’m not at all. I’m worried about the integrity of the Bible, which suffers when Hagee implies that the apostles Peter and Paul are lying when they say that the Jews killed Jesus.

It’s that simple.

You say, “I think Romans Chapter 11 holds the answers to the questions you ask. A Jew is your Brother in Christ whether you like it or not.”

Romans 9-11 are some of my favorite chapters in all the Bible. I don’t believe in replacement theology, and I revel in Jews who are my brothers in Christ. Your charge that I do not is made of whole cloth.

Oops, cva, I think I called you eva by mistake earlier, and I apologize.

You say, “You obviously ignored what I wrote as well as what Christ said to Pilate.”

I didn’t ignore what you said about the Jews clamoring that the blood of Jesus be on them. Hagee says that was their claim, but he thinks it wasn’t true. I was interested in what Paul and Peter said, as they were speaking by inspiration. The issue with Hagee is that he calls their inspiration into question by implying that Jesus’ apostles told lies.

“Why promote hate and division on the matter?”

All I did was ask for a passage, and when it was asserted to teach a certain thing, I pointed out that it did no such thing. I wasn’t mean about it, I didn’t impugn anyone’s motives, nor misrepresent anyone.

Sorry you see that as hate and division.

Please excuse incomplete reply.

You said, “HE WILL DO what HE SAID HE WILL DO vis a vis Israel.

That’s the whole of it, to me.”

The problem is, you asserted that God said such a thing about Israel and gave Gen. 12.3 as your proof text. I simply pointed out that Israel wasn’t in the passage, so that God didn’t say what you said he said, at least not there. Gimme a passage that actually says it, and I’ll have absolutely no problem with it.

Thanks again

I asked, who cursed the Jews more than anyone, and therefore according to your interpretation of Gen. 12.3, would be cursed (although Israel wasn’t mentioned in the verse).

Think Jesus, in Mt. 23

“I think you’re putting that verse in much too tiny a box.”

Quix, I didn’t put the verse in any box. I just pointed out that the promise was made to a single individiual—Abram. That’s what is said. You, and lots of others, are the ones that read the entire nation of Israel into it, which wasn’t said at all. It’s just a question of what the Bible says vs. what it does not say.

When you have time, please ponder my second question. If the passage was talking about the nation of Israel, who cursed Israel more than anyone else in the Bible, and therefore according to your interpretation of Gen. 12.3, deserves to be greatly cursed?

Thanks for your time in reading and considering.

FNU

Eva, you say, “I’ve heard the Jews killed Jesus stuff myself in my childhood and I’m 50. A little bit of reading shows otherwise.”

I heard the ‘Jews killed Jesus stuff’ from Paul when he said “the Jews killed the Lord Jesus” (I Thes. 4.14-15) and from Peter when he said that “men of Israel” crucified and slew Jesus (Ac. 2.22-23).

Do you really think Paul and Peter need a little bit of reading to show them otherwise? Did another New Testament author contradict what Peter and Paul said? I do know that John Hagee does, which is where this discussion started. Should we be reading more Hagee on this “Jews killed Jesus stuff”?

Thanks for your response, Quix. I asked for a passage promising blessings to those who bless Israel, and cursings to those who curse Israel. You gave

“Genesis 12:3

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”

I’m afraid Israel isn’t even in this passage. God is speaking to Abram long before Israel ever existed. Furthermore the “thees” are all singular—God is speaking to Abram as an individual. Third, if you read Israel into a personal promise to Abraham, what’s to keep someone else to take the same liberty and read the Arabs (the descendants of Ishmael, Abraham’s son by Hagar) into the passage as well, then pronounce a blessing on those who bless the arabs, and curses on those who curse the arabs. Are you willing to let the arabs take the same liberty with this passage that you do?

In any event, Gen. 12.3 doesn’t promise blessings and curses on those who bless and curse Israel, but on Abraham.

Can you think of someone who cursed the Jews more than anyone else in the Bible, yet we don’t believe that God cursed him?

Thanks for reading, and considering.

Thanks for the clarification, Quix, although I think Hagee is doing more than slipping and sliding. I’m sure you’ll agree that it’s a serious matter (particularly for one like Hagee who claims that God is speaking through him) to accuse one of Jesus’ apostles of teaching lies.

On another matter, when you spoke of “the emphatic Scriptures about God blessing those who bless Israel and cursing those who curse Israel,” do you have a particular scripture in mind?

Thanks again,

FNU LNU

What’s your point? Did Paul and Peter tell the truth when they said men of Israel and the Jews killed Jesus, making a liar of Hagee?

Or is Hagee telling the truth when he implies that Peter and Paul lied when they said the Jews killed Jesus?

Keeper, help him out if you can.

The verses I gave weren’t addressed to God’s blessings of Israel. They addressed Hagee’s credentials. Hagee says to say that the Jews killed Jesus is a lie.

Peter said that “men of Israel” crucified and slew Jesus.

Paul said that “the Jews killed the Lord Jesus.”

Is Hagee lying, or are Peter and Paul?

What do you say?

I don’t have an anti-Semitic bone in my body, but should we believe Hagee or Peter and Paul?

Hagee: “One of those deadly New Testament myths is that the Jews killed Jesus, yet no justification can be found in the New Testament to support this lie.” (In Defense of Israel, p. 125)

Apostle Peter:

Ac. 2.23-26 – “Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:”

Apostle Paul:

I Thes. 2.14-15 – “For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews; who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;”

I couldn’t agree more. Sorry if I didn’t make my sarcasm clear enough.

“We haven’t seen ‘Statesmen’ in many a decade ... and our current crop is somewhat junior grade.”

You’ve just gotta be kiddin’!! Didn’t you overlook Trent Lott?

8-)

8-(

Meaning no disrespect to his name, I don’t know whether he mispronounces it or misspells it.

The sign’s OK, it just doesn’t go far enough.

If there’s no religion:

1. There’s no atheism, for atheism is a religion, with it’s own miracles: life from lifeless matter, morality from non-moral matter.

2. No God

3. No Morality

4. No purpose

5. No hope

Your comment about green and purple hair reminded me of the joke about the elderly man standing at the bus stop along side a young guy with his hair up in purple, yellow, red, etc. spikes. The young guy sees the old man eyeing him out of the corner of his eye and says, “What’s the matter, old man, didn’t you ever have any fun?”

The old man says, “Yes, I’ve had a lot of fun. As a matter of fact, I had sex with a parrot one time, and I was just wondering if you might be one of my children.”

With due respect,

1. The sabbath was not a day of gathering for worship, but a day off.

2. It was to commemorate the delivery of Israel from Egypt

3. On that day, Israelites were to “remember that they were slaves in Egypt, and that God had miraculously delivered them out of bondage. Most who claim to keep the sabbath today have never been to Egypt, weren’t slaves there, and weren’t delivered by God from there.

4. Keeping the sabbath was never commanded of Christians.

It’s not a warning—it’s an armed constitutional scholar...

I recently had to replace my CPAP machine. Went to medical supply store, most of them were priced around $1400. Googled for the brand and model I wanted, found it many places for $325, paid $25 for overnight shipping, and had it the next day. It was covered by insurance, but I figure it wasn’t doing me (or you) any good to rip off my own insurance.