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Posts by Frumious Bandersnatch

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  • Why Clinton Can’t Shake Trump

    08/02/2016 1:58:04 PM PDT · 6 of 35
    Frumious Bandersnatch to 2ndDivisionVet

    This reporter sees the problems with the RNC convention, but saw nothing but professionalism in the DNC convention.

    Blind we much?


    07/31/2016 12:41:28 AM PDT · 42 of 42
    Frumious Bandersnatch to windhover

    Very true, as far as it goes. However, Muslims accept the miracle birth of Jesus, but refuse to ask why the necessity for a such a birth in the first place.

    Even Islam preaches that God is not capricious. So there had to be a reason for Jesus’ birth that was important to God’s plan of salvation.

    This is an important question that, if left unanswered, leaves a pretty big hole in your religious scholarship. The event itself was not mundane, but a very significant miracle that never had happened before or since AFAIK.

    Ignorance, in this case, is very dangerous from a spiritual aspect.


    07/27/2016 10:26:13 PM PDT · 38 of 42
    Frumious Bandersnatch to windhover

    Interestingly enough, in the pamphlet “A conversation between Christians and Muslims”, the author (a Saudi Imam) asserts that believing in the miraculous birth of Jesus is a basic tenet of Islam. However, the next logical step is that if Jesus birth is true, then he was, in a physical sense, half-immortal, a god, if you will.

    So given this, how is it possible that such a man as Jesus could play second fiddle to a mortal man who never performed any miracles?

    BTW, from his comments on the Bible, I doubt that the Saudi Imam referenced above ever even bothered to read it. I do hope that his understanding of the Quran is much better.

  • Homestead officers pay bill of couple who refused to sit next to them at restaurant (Pa)

    07/11/2016 6:54:36 PM PDT · 21 of 50
    Frumious Bandersnatch to karatemom

    Oooh, these officers fight dirty. :)

  • Immigration reformers eye Gang of 8 revival

    07/05/2016 11:27:42 AM PDT · 12 of 29
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Hojczyk

    Lindsey is an idiot. The FBI announcement today basically handed the election to Trump (he could still blow it).

  • Consider this before you buy a new car or truck...

    06/14/2016 3:59:32 PM PDT · 37 of 103
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Tazzo

    True, BUT, the UAW has expressed concern that their rank and file lean Trump

  • Muslim airline more American than our media

    06/11/2016 9:46:22 PM PDT · 17 of 22
    Frumious Bandersnatch to JosephW

    They have a good reputation, but their flight from Dubai to San Francisco is that absolute pits. The most uncomfortable flight I have ever been on. And I have been on it twice this year. The seats are as hard as concrete and they have about as much room on them as the old Braniff Airways did in the 70’s.

    I did complain about it the first trip I took, but they apparently aren’t into customer service much (at least on that flight).

    All that said, I did enjoy being able to go through customs in Dubai rather than SFO. Much more pleasant

  • What Happened to the Dream of Underground Cities?

    06/10/2016 6:44:04 PM PDT · 37 of 71
    Frumious Bandersnatch to soycd

    Crystal City is pretty much underground

  • H. Clinton Received 1.5 Million FEWER Votes in 2016 than in 2008 — Dems Down 7 Million Votes

    06/08/2016 10:50:19 PM PDT · 12 of 13
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Signalman

    True. But just a caution here. She still received far more than Trump (even though Trump broke the GOP record).

    However, I believe that, in this case, the trending is important.

  • Dear Web Designers Of major Websites; YOU SUCK!

    06/08/2016 10:39:16 PM PDT · 43 of 86
    Frumious Bandersnatch to big bad easter bunny

    Too true. The noise to news ratio is extremely high. One of the best-designed websites (and most user-friendly) I’ve ever seen is the Drudge Report. Everything is on one page and everything can be found in a matter of seconds.

  • THE FREEPER CANTEEN - The Which Twilight Zone Episode Is Your Personal Nightmare Quiz - Wed, 5-18-16

    05/17/2016 8:01:56 PM PDT · 99 of 137
    Frumious Bandersnatch to TEXOKIE

    I sing the body electric

  • ‘Free Republic’ Now A Safe Space for Donald Trump Supporters [Jim's response at post 25]

    05/12/2016 1:31:26 PM PDT · 177 of 602
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Jim Robinson


    While you are right that this is your sandbox, I have noticed that you cut a heck of a lot of leeway for opposing opinions that don’t have a lot of strawmen or ad-hominum in them.

    From what I’ve seen, the bannings have been because of over-the-top rhetoric and sock-puppeteering.

    To put it another way, Free Republic has had their portion of flamewars with little done to the participants therein.

    BTW, did the moose bite your sister’s cheese?

  • Where Should the Line Be Drawn? [#NeverTrump]

    05/04/2016 2:54:11 PM PDT · 45 of 46
    Frumious Bandersnatch to C19fan

    I like Eric, but he has been absolutely obsessed in his hatred of Trump. To the point that his credibility is totally shot. I believe that he needs to look in a mirror.

  • Anybody else sick of Rush 100% Cruz all the time?

    05/02/2016 3:39:07 PM PDT · 171 of 177
    Frumious Bandersnatch to conservativesister

    I don’t listen I read his website. From what I’ve seen, it is very fair.

  • Anybody else sick of Rush 100% Cruz all the time?

    05/02/2016 2:38:57 PM PDT · 151 of 177
    Frumious Bandersnatch to conservativesister

    I think that Rush is being eminently fair to both Cruz and Trump. As one who could vote either way, I think he does a very good job of backing both of them against unfair criticism. He also is an equal opportunity criticizer of both.

    Anyone who says that he is overtly for one or the other just sees what they want to see (as Rush himself has mentioned many times).

  • The Winds Appear to Have Shifted In Ted Cruz’s Favor

    04/29/2016 6:11:25 AM PDT · 81 of 134
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Fai Mao

    i like Eric Ericsson, but I wouldn’t say that his Trump predictions, to date, have been overwhelmingly accurate. More like wishful thinking, actually.

  • {vanity} For all the Trumpsters

    04/28/2016 11:25:32 PM PDT · 533 of 565
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Hawthorn

    That is my point. People can and should, but apparently around here (and elsewhere), they don’t.

    I’ve heard that Breitbart and Drudge are all in for Trump. I’ve also heard that Ace and Hotair are all in for Cruz. Not so for either (although they are pro Trump and Cruz respectively).

    If you want to know what all in is, take a look at Redstate or NR. They’ve become unreadable.

  • {vanity} For all the Trumpsters

    04/28/2016 11:18:28 PM PDT · 532 of 565
    Frumious Bandersnatch to The Citizen Soldier

    Think of Cruz and the budget fights over the last couple of years. Those were epic - and eye opening. He tried to get the pubbie leadership to have a spine, but he opened my eyes to the fact that they had preemptively surrendered to the dems.

    So yes, I am grateful for his exposure of the establishment.

  • Missing 13th Amendment To The United States Constitution

    04/28/2016 11:10:12 PM PDT · 28 of 53
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Elderberry

    Another conspiracy 101 theory, I see. This makes no logical sense whatsoever. The entire electorate would have had to have Alzheimer’s for this to happen.

  • {vanity} For all the Trumpsters

    04/27/2016 11:09:41 PM PDT · 95 of 565
    Frumious Bandersnatch to WMarshal

    Please, take a deep breath and stop this nonsense. We don’t need to accuse our opponents of Stockholm Syndrome. Or indeed any other ad-hominum attack.

    Men of good will can agree to disagree. But to accuse others (either explicitly or implicitly) of bad faith or being Lemmings is really not wise.

    Personally, I am very grateful to both Trump and Cruz for exposing the GOPe. It really opened my eyes to the shenanigans of the establishment.

    Just a protip: Never make enemies out of your natural allies. People of goodwill can agree to disagree.

  • {vanity} For all the Trumpsters

    04/27/2016 10:57:54 PM PDT · 63 of 565
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Neil E. Wright

    Many of the Cruzers and Trumpets have been over the top. Personally, I like both men, but from all I’ve seen, more vitriol is directed against Trump than Cruz. I think that both sides should take a deep breath, step back and look in a mirror and engage brains before mouths. All this childishness is totally unnecessary. It is quite alright to disagree with someone without throwing friends under the bus.

    Attacking the supporters of Cruz or Trump is not helpful. Try to understand where your political opponents come from. ...And keep them as friends. Shouting and yelling at each other generates more heat than light.

    IOW, stop acting like progressives.

  • 14 Facts About The Obama Presidency That Most People Don’t Know (help me rebut these)

    11/04/2014 9:12:04 PM PST · 17 of 22
    Frumious Bandersnatch to E. Pluribus Unum

    Indeed president Bush added 1.4 trillion in debt his last year in office. Of course, remember that he had a hostile congress to contend with and was fighting a war too.

    His first year in office, Obama racked up a 1.7 trillion dollar debt and has only been below 1 trillion dollars since.

    The reason that the unemployment figures are so low, is that those numbers are based on people getting ng unemployment benefits. When those run out, unemployed people no longer are counted as unemployed. The actual unemployment rate, so I am told is actually hovering around 11% or so.

    Yes, 7 to 10 million people have been added to insurance rolls. Of course that doesn’t take into account the 10 meters lion who have lost theirs.

    The average household has an income which is $2,500 less than when Obama came into office.

    All those jobs created sure look good on paper. Of course they don’t take into account the jobs which have been lost and tha fact that the net jobs has not kt up with population growth

  • Woman Motorist Stuck in Cruise Control at 120kmph on MBZ Road

    08/27/2014 8:24:22 PM PDT · 66 of 90
    Frumious Bandersnatch to driftdiver

    U.A.E. is very westernized. Also, 120 kph is 75 mph.

  • Could you, as a driver, handle the Autobahn?

    08/14/2014 8:13:50 PM PDT · 64 of 92
    Frumious Bandersnatch to WesternCulture

    Considering that I drove in Saudia for 5 years where anything under 100 mph was unsafe (although driving n Saudia itself is unsafe) I think tha I have at least a chance...

  • Holy Crap: Corruption in the Mississippi Senate race looks much worse than we thought

    06/30/2014 8:48:50 PM PDT · 34 of 152
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Viennacon

    If this is tha same Charles Johnson from LGF, I’d be very leery of the source and get independent confirmation direst.


    06/03/2014 10:04:32 PM PDT · 126 of 129
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Cvengr

    One of the greatest gifts of God is the freedom of choice. Control, as it were, over our own decisions in life. Whether to do good or evil.

    A person who becomes an alcoholic has given up much of their God-given freedom in order to satisfy base desires. Thus allowing Satan to have that much more influence and control over him.


    06/03/2014 10:00:13 PM PDT · 125 of 129
    Frumious Bandersnatch to PieterCasparzen

    Well, since we know that an angel, Lucifer fell from the grace of God, I don’t see how we are exempt.

    I think we will be judged by our thoughts and actions at the end of our lives. It is difficult to see how it could be otherwise.

    I do admit that without Christ’s sacrifice, all we do would be for naught.

    But if we do nothing are we worthy of his sacrifice and thus his grace?

    I think not. I believe those who claim otherwise make but a mockery of his existence.

    However, to paraphrase Queen Elizabeth I, there is only one Jesus Christ. The rest is detail.


    05/26/2014 10:26:52 PM PDT · 29 of 129
    Frumious Bandersnatch to SADMILLIE

    Then what would you say to the likes of Stalin? At one time he was a seminarian, which argues very strongly he was saved.

    Personally, I feel that one can tell from a person’s actions whether or not they are saved.

  • Saudi Court Orders Two Thieves' Hands Cut Off

    05/09/2014 9:27:16 PM PDT · 26 of 28
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Cementjungle

    I new an American 18 year kid, who, about 3 years or so ago who was convicted of stealing gold from a neighbor and selling it in the Gold Souk. They kicked him out of the kingdom.

    He left the kingdom with all body parts he had entered it with.

    Unless they have changed the laws recently, removing hands (which I was done surgically, not by sword as has been implied). Has been illegal in Saudia for at least 10 years.

    I know that the Muttawa have been trying to get this changed, but I haven’t yet heard that they had been successful.

    Of course, if this sentence was indeed handed down as written, it wouldn’t be the first time that a Sharia court abused their status in the kingdom.

    Saudis have the right, however, to appeal directly to the king, so odds are that this will be overturned and the imams making such ha decision chastised for embarrassing the king.

    Not a good thing to embarrass the king in Saudia

  • Saudi Court Orders Two Thieves' Hands Cut Off

    05/09/2014 9:09:52 PM PDT · 24 of 28
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Sacajaweau

    The title of the article indicated the amputation is to be done in Sausia. Mthe video link indicates Mogadishu.

    Mogadishu is not in Saudia. I seriously doubt that this would be done in Saudia. Unless their laws have changed in the last 9 months. It has been illegal for quite a number of years to take off hands in the kingdom.

    So my question for you, are you talking of Saudia, and if you are, have tha laws changed in tha last 9 months?

  • Saudi Court Orders Two Thieves' Hands Cut Off

    05/09/2014 4:44:14 PM PDT · 13 of 28
    Frumious Bandersnatch to nickcarraway

    This sounds very suspicious to me. Unless they have changed their laws in the last nine months, the cutting off the hand punishment is bogus.

  • Moses' Egyptian Name

    02/13/2014 5:21:38 PM PST · 26 of 26
    Frumious Bandersnatch to gleeaikin

    I basically agree with the chronology (not nexessarily with the Reed sea,etc., because that is just supposition and I just don’t plain know).

    However, my biggest beef with many Egyptologists is that while the know there are discrepancies between dating per the Pentateuch and dating per Egyptian dynasties, the always make the assumption that the Egyptian version is correct, whereas there is plenty of evidence tha we don’t yet have Egyptian timelines nailed down yet.

    And yes, I believe that there is good evidence that it was the Hyksos who took advantage of a situation that has puzzled Egyptologists for a,LNG time.

    Oh yes, indeedy if Rameses had been the king, he would also would have been the chief bug squasher. I havee my doubts that he would have been stupid enough to follow the Israelites into what was clearly a trap.

  • Why December 25?

    12/18/2013 3:06:32 PM PST · 53 of 53
    Frumious Bandersnatch to stormhill

    Think youuu.

    Ya gotta admit that Lewis Carrol’s poetry makes a whole lot more sense than the POTUS

  • Why December 25?

    12/17/2013 3:47:52 PM PST · 27 of 53
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Vaquero

    Very likely. Not, of course all that important when we celebrate as long as we do. I did see a presentation once that made a good case that the star shining on Bethlehem that led the wise men there was on December 25.

    But whatever...

  • ‘Moderate’ muslims…a non-existent politically correct fabrication of the left

    12/11/2013 3:10:31 PM PST · 34 of 34
    Frumious Bandersnatch to bunkerhill7

    Uh huh. The entire country of Bahrain consists of around 1,000,000 citizens.

    While Islam is the dominant religion over there (at least, officially), there are plenty of other religions over there besides just Muslim and Catholic. A Muslim friend of mine estimated that ove 90% of current citizens are expats. There is a huge Hindi contingent over there too.

    To be fair, I did not the Catholics had such a big presence. That can probably be put down directly to the Portugese occupation of the place a couple hundred years ago.

  • ‘Moderate’ muslims…a non-existent politically correct fabrication of the left

    12/09/2013 6:54:46 PM PST · 32 of 34
    Frumious Bandersnatch to bunkerhill7

    Also, in Bahrain, it is quite common to see Muslim women going around in western clothing. There is no segregation of the sexes there either.

    There Christian churches there, at least one Jewish community center (and a Jewish cometary) as well as an assortment of Mosques. Also life didn’t stop during prayer time.

    But Saudi Arabia and Bahrain are the only two Arabic states that I have any personal experience with.

  • ‘Moderate’ muslims…a non-existent politically correct fabrication of the left

    12/09/2013 6:20:54 PM PST · 30 of 34
    Frumious Bandersnatch to bunkerhill7

    Admittedly not many, maybe a half dozen or so, although at least one of them, the wife of a local Sheik, I talked with many times many times in both private and public. She never went covered that I saw and she wasn’t the only one.

    Although fairly rare, it wasn’t all that unusual to see Saudi women going around in public with only the head scarf and Abaya. No Hijab (veil).

    Believe me, you’ve been misinformed on this issue. If you trespass into a women’s area, you can be arrested, but typically, they only kick you out

  • ‘Moderate’ muslims…a non-existent politically correct fabrication of the left

    12/09/2013 6:04:35 PM PST · 28 of 34
    Frumious Bandersnatch to bunkerhill7

    And also a bunch of bull.. Someone is totally pulling your leg on this one.

    There are women all over the place outside and in malls. If your story we’re true, they’d have to arrest every male in Saudia.

  • ‘Moderate’ muslims…a non-existent politically correct fabrication of the left

    12/09/2013 11:13:13 AM PST · 25 of 34
    Frumious Bandersnatch to bunkerhill7

    Apples and oranges man. Also a lot of strawmen here.

    You go to a country, you obey their laws, whether you agree with those laws or not. The fact that some extremists here break the law is no excuse.

    The fact that they don’t observe Chrismas has NOTHING to do with the matter. They DO let others worship privately. As I and many many others can attest.

    I’m afraid that you don’ understand how things work over there. For example,their religious police CANNOT arrest anybody for any infraction WHATSOEVER and haven’t had this ability for years. Only the regular police have this ability and they only do it when they are forced to go around with the Muttawa. But I can tell you that they hate doing it.

    If a Muttawa tells you to do something and he doesn’t have a police escort, you can ignore them and there is nothing they can do about it. You can eve refuse (and should) refuse to get into a minivan of morality.

    Saudia officially has about 200 murders in the entire country per year (the number is probably (higher). Rapes are rare enough that when one happens, it is major news over there.

    How does that compare to Chicago?

    FYI, sharia law , as practiced in Saudia, is a whole lot different than in other countries. And while the courts are run by the Imams, there is quite a body of secular laws having nothing to do with ANY religion in effect is Saudia.

    As fare as wanting it all their way, I call B.S. On that one. Most Saudis don’t care one way or the other as to what religion you belong to, or what you do privately.

    Believe it or not, there is no theocracy over there, at least in the accepted sense of the term. It is a very secular state. They don’t worship their rulers (though they are venerated). There is an amazingly high degree of freedom of speech (don’t dis the Koran, ask about their wives or show disdain for the country. That is pretty much it).

    And they must be doing something right. Auto insurance was less than $400 per year for me. And this is in a country that has the world’s craziest drivers and one of the highest death rates by car. BTW, that rate covered the car. Which meant that whoever drove it was covered also.

  • ‘Moderate’ muslims…a non-existent politically correct fabrication of the left

    12/08/2013 10:46:43 PM PST · 22 of 34
    Frumious Bandersnatch to bunkerhill7

    If your stories about the U.A.E. are as accurate as your story about the bible shredding in Saudia, then you are full of condensed beans.

    I never had any problem with it and yes I did transport my family’s personal scriptures (up to 6 sets) to and from Saudia over the years. If the Saudis think that you are bringing in bibles to proselyte, they will confiscate them and possibly deport you. But lashes? Extremely unlikely to happen. And DID not happen in 2012!!! Period. Even if the bibles were confiscated, the claim that they were destroyed by shredding is not verifiable by eye witness accounts.

    I repeat, Christians have no problem getting scriptures over their for their own personal use. Lashing for having a quantity of bibles is NOT the punishment given to foreigners. Deportation is.

    As far as the minister proselytizing in the UA.E. Is concerned, it is against their laws and the minister was not ignorant of it. While you might not like the law, it behooves you, as a guest, to respect such laws while residing in said country. Otherwise, how can you honestly expect them to respect our laws when they are over here?

    As for rape, murders, etc., there are more in Chicago each year than in Saudia and probably more than in the U.A.E. too. Mote, meet beam.

    If the Al Jouf incident is the same one I’m thinking of, then it was totally misrepresented in the western press. What actually happened was that the Muttawa raided a private religious observance of the sabbath held by Sudanese Christians and had them deported before they could be hauled before the sharia court where they would have had to be acquitted according to Saudi law. The Arab News made a big stink about this at the time.

    But it is not illegal to celebrate Christmas in Saudia. You can’t buy Christmas ornaments around Christmas time and the Muttawa do try to crack down on the practice. But we bought our first artificial tree over there from a street vendor in Riyadh. We bought a better one the next year from Manama, where even the Muslims openly celebrate Christmas.

    We even had Christmas lights festooning the outside of our villa (a common practice amongst Westerners over there BTW) with no problems.

    I’m not saying that there are not any,problems, by any means, but the amount of misinformation I here back in the states about that area is absolutely astounding.

  • ‘Moderate’ muslims…a non-existent politically correct fabrication of the left

    12/07/2013 2:57:27 PM PST · 20 of 34
    Frumious Bandersnatch to bunkerhill7

    The Koran contains the Books of Moses (although they are somewhat different from tha accepted Christian canon).

    Yes there are stonings, rape and murder, but none that is condoned by the government. Also, there are only about 200 murders a year in all of Saudia. How does that compare to LA.? Rapes are rare enough, that it is major news when it happens there. Honor killings happen, but in the 5 years I was there, I only heard of one being committed.

    Typically, governmental punishment of crimes over there consists of imprisonment, whipping or (in the case of capital crimes) beheading. Oh yes. The most common one is banishment.

    Why were the British tourists thrown intor prison? Firstly, the story sounds kind of fishy, because Saudia doesn’t have a tourist industry. Thy do have visas for Muslims going to Hajj or Umrah and they have business visas and they do let relatives of foreigners visit, but that is,about it, except those who qualify for the Iquama foe work purposes.

  • ‘Moderate’ muslims…a non-existent politically correct fabrication of the left

    12/07/2013 10:28:04 AM PST · 13 of 34
    Frumious Bandersnatch to bunkerhill7

    Moses is a prophet revered by Islam.

    I agree that there are a lot of idiots in Islam. But I just came back from Saudi Arabia in July, where I had lived for over 5 years. And I can state with absolute certainty, from personal experience, that the cluelessness on this thread approaches that of our esteemed president

  • Bahrain: Security Forces Detaining Children

    09/17/2013 11:23:01 PM PDT · 6 of 6
    Frumious Bandersnatch to skinkinthegrass

    I lived in Saudi Arabia for over 5 years. In fact, I just got back from there in July. Quite often I and my family would spend holidays 2 to 3 times a year in Bahrain. It is a nice place about a 5 hour drive from Riyadh. In fact it felt like being back in the USA again.

    Religious worship of various faiths is open and accepted there. There are at least 2 Catholic cathedrals there, as well as a whole host of other faiths, including Judaism (there is also a Jewish cemetery and a cultural center in Manama).

    In point of fact, Christmas is openly celebrated there even by the Muslims.

    Given all of this, I would suggest that the info being fed tou you by these activists is somewhat suspect. Consider also the nasty, and untrue things they have said about the US.


    08/30/2011 2:35:09 PM PDT · 3 of 10
    Frumious Bandersnatch to NYer
    I am no Catholic, nor do I hold any brief for Catholicism (having a different set of religious beliefs myself, this is not too hard to understand). However, one thing I've learned over the years, is that if I want to learn more about Catholic beliefs, I go to the Catholics, not their enemies (personally, I've found the official Catholic website to be a veritable wealth of info).
    Also, I'd say to those who would trash leaders of another sect to first look into the mirror. As the master would be say, "Let he who is perfect cast the first stone."
  • Rick Perry Needn't Sweat His Global Warming Skepticism

    08/30/2011 2:02:17 PM PDT · 25 of 88
    Frumious Bandersnatch to Paradox

    Well there is certainly a whole lot of evidence available as well as uncertainty of what that evidence means. It seems to me the High Priests of Global Warming are actually more the deniers than the sceptics.

  • EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed

    11/06/2007 7:03:08 PM PST · 206 of 271
    Frumious Bandersnatch to edsheppa
    Oh but he did. The Coyoteman tried to change it to a scientific discussion. He also posed it as an evolution vs. ID debate. Rather than defend any of his assumptions, he presented them as dogma without any logical debate.

    Plus, he was a bit guilty of being somewhate selective of his facts concerning the debates in the19th and 20th centuries. But all of that was beside the point, because it had nothing to do with the logic of the underlying assertion. It was all noise and had no logical point to the challenge I offered.

    I grant you that he tried to use induction, but not very effectively. Besides, he is a three exclamation point evolutionists, and therefore is disqualified from using anything other than deduction (because he disallows it automatically from IDers).
  • EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed

    11/06/2007 6:53:41 PM PST · 203 of 271
    Frumious Bandersnatch to js1138
    This is all true, but besides the point. A logical device addresses the method and affects the outcome. IOW, a conclusion may or not may be correct, even though the logic may be.

    What I'm addressing here is the fact that an assertion stated as scientific fact should logically be a closed loop. If a position cannot be put in logical terms that can be easily understood and makes logical sense, then either the subject matter is not known well enough or the conclusions are incorrect.

    All I'm trying to do is get those who believe in one side or another to put up or shut up on their logic. Thus far, I've either gotten people who want to rewrite the rules or go into what-if scenarios which have little to do with the problem at hand.

    Tis simple enough, really. Just using deduction, induction and Occam's razor, justify your position. That's not all that hard to understand (though it may be difficult to do).

    Once a logical justification has been formulated, then we can critically examine it to see if it holds water. To this point, no one on either side has successfully made a reasonable defense.
  • EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed

    11/03/2007 11:42:03 PM PDT · 94 of 271
    Frumious Bandersnatch to raygun
    The entire idea of this exercise is that we are not discussing whether or not ID is scientific. Rather, we are discussing whether or not it is logical. True, deduction cannot be used in proving the logic or illogic of ID, but induction can.

    As for your statement that it is untrue that a rational reason needs to be offered for disbelief (I'm assuming you are talking of a logical discussion here), that is not necessarily so, since every disbelief can be couched in terms of belief. In fact, by implication we can see this is so, since a disbelief simply is a belief to the contrary of a given position.

    I'm not addressing here the lack of belief one way or another.

    In a logical debate, the burden of proof is always on the person making the assertive statement regardless of that statement being positive or negative. Traditionally, the first person in a debate makes such an assertion and opponents challenge it, followed by his defense, etc. This formula hasn't been followed generally in recent history unfortunately IMHO. I do believe, though, that we are talking of the same thing, just using slightly different terminology.

    But again, this is not about science, per se. Rather, it is a challenge to both sides of the debate to logically prove their points either for or against ID. The reason for this, is that many in the scientific community (Dawkins included) believe that ID is a superstition while those on the side of ID believe that such anti-IDers are being close-minded. Both sides feel that the other is being unscientific, so it is useless to apply to that overbroad brush to determine the issue.

    Rather, I have set up a challenge wherein logic only is to be used. I have stated before and will probably do so again that logic is only a part of science, but if a position cannot be explained logically, it is either not well understood or false.

    So, given that, it should be reasonable to suppose that the logicalness of a position should be able to be established, more especially since this debate has raged on for 150 years or so.

    Also, I might point out that those adhering to ID have such a wide-ranging set of opinions, to assume that ID must necessarily be separated from evolution in an "either-or" position is not a tenable solution.

    And herein lies a problem for the anti-IDers. Because they tend to equate all IDers with those whose belief system does preclude evolution, they have ignored those who don't, thus invalidating their generally accepted dictums.

    In fact, they refuse to address such issues. Just as they refuse to address the fact that they do accept design, just not the designer.

    This is merely a logical exercise. I say "merely" but can attest to the fact that it aint easy for either side.

    The standards of evidence should apply equally to both sides. If one side is not allowed to use inductive reasoning because of it's uncertain nature, then neither is the other side. IOW, if one side is not allowed to use an argument or a tool because it is not falsifiable, neither is the other side. I would suggest that both IDers and anti-IDers be careful is what arguments they will and won't allow in such a discussion, because they are bound by the same rules. If not thought through carefully, it could get messy right quick.

    Lead on McDuff...
  • Italy: Film condemned as 'concerted attack on Catholicism'

    11/03/2007 10:57:13 PM PDT · 80 of 81
    Frumious Bandersnatch to RobbyS
    True, in many ways about the Henry Tudor, less true about Elizabeth. Henry was a very adroit politician who had his eye more on winning the war than any particular battle and he seemed to prefer the velvet glove more than the iron hand (although he wasn't all that hesitant about using the iron hand, either).

    Elizabeth, OTOH, felt that her safety rested in the goodwill of the common people (a rather radical notion for the day) and was very adroit politician. She was also a good judge of people and surrounded herself with those who were very able. One of her ablest prime ministers, for example, came from the opposition party.
  • Italy: Film condemned as 'concerted attack on Catholicism'

    11/02/2007 11:23:00 AM PDT · 63 of 81
    Frumious Bandersnatch to RobbyS

    The Estates General were supported by the English when the Spanish used heavy-handed tactics in their rule. While England ultimately lost there, her actions help considerably in freeing a good portion of the Netherlands from Spanish rule. I believe that Ben Jonson met the champion of the Spanish army in personal combat and won.