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>>Some of the early church fathers (Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius, Irenaeus, and Victorinus) wrote that the Apostle John experienced exile on the island of Patmos during the Roman Emperor Domitian’s reign (1:9).3 They wrote that the government allowed John to return to Ephesus after Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. Consequently many conservative interpreters date the writing of this book near A.D. 95 or 96.4 There is good evidence that this was the last of John’s inspired writings.<<

Somehow I missed this post. It has been a busy day (fixing the microwave.)

The list of ECFs that believed John was on Patmos in the 90s seem to have based their understanding on this obscure statement by Irenaeus:

“We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.” [Irenaeus, Against Heresies, in Roberts & Donaldson, “Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers.” Charles Scribner’s Sons, Amer. Ed, 1913, Bk V.30.3, pp.559-560]

Two paragraphs before that one, Irenaeus wrote:

“Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six;” [Ibid. Bk V.30.1, p.558]

It appears Irenaeus is saying that “ancient copies” were seen “almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign,” not the original.

>>”5 Kenneth Gentry argued that John wrote Revelation in the late 60s.6 Several writers have refuted this view.7”<<

Gentry makes many good arguments for an early date. I have read statements from many authors who dismiss it, but from none that have refuted it.

There are several arguments in support of an early date that are difficult to dismiss:

1) Not once in the New Testament is the destruction of Jerusalem mentioned as a past event.

Source: John A. T. Robinson, “Redating the New Testament.” Wipf & Stock Publishers, 1976, Chap 2, p.13

2) The seven churches in Asia are not “seven OF the churches in Asia,” but “THE seven churches in Asia.” One biblical scholar wrote that there was only one small window of time when there were exactly seven churches in Asia — the early 60s.

Source: Denis Callaghan, “What You Were Never Told About the Book of Revelation.” Academia.edu

That article by Dr. Callaghan is 155 pages, loaded with data on the Revelation. I highly recommend it.

Mr. Kalamata

>>>>Regarding Church history, when the inspired people (the elect) were raptured about 66 AD, inspired writings abruptly ceased.<<<<

>>Ok...we’re not dealing in reality any longer in this conversation.<<

I suspected you are ignorant of Church History. You cannot so much as muster up an intelligent challenge to anything I have written.

>>You display a complete lack of knowledge of the Bible, Greek and overall history. You can have the last word.<<

Maybe someday you will enrich our lives with some of the vast knowledge of which you boast. LOL!

Mr. Kalamata

>>Comical reply. However, you question was an outlandish one...and remains so. Now that you’ve been called on it you’re trying to excuse the stupidity of the question.<<

Don’t be silly. You are either too ignorant to recognize a rhetorical question, too proud to admit you were not following the conversation, or you are gaslighting.

>>>>It appears from your attitude that you are having difficulty handling the conversation.<<<<

>>Comical again.<<

Translation: the conversation is too difficult for ealgeone to follow.

>>Trust me...I’ve had debates with people far more knowledgeable than you.<<

You must hide your knowledge in a lock box because I have read nothing but quips and quibbles from you in this thread.

Mr. Kalamata

>>Well, I can see you don’t know how to handle the Word.<<

You don’t seem to know very much at all.

>>The passages you posted do not say what you so desperately want them to say to fit whatever theology you adhere to.<<

What do the passages I posted say? (This should be interesting...)

>>But I can assure you of this: your understanding of these passages is incorrect.<<

I can assure you that you don’t know what you are talking about.

>>If you want to persist in believing all of this happened in 70 AD...and not one person noticed this in all of early church history post 70 AD....then I cannot help you.<<

I am certain you cannot “help” me.

Regarding Church history, when the inspired people (the elect) were raptured about 66 AD, inspired writings abruptly ceased. Afterward came the dark or silent period in which Gnostics, Judaizers, and other heretics dominated. Then came those known as the Early Church Fathers (ECFs) from which 1900 years of false end-time and apocalyptic prophecies arose which harmed countless lives and livelihoods. If that is your idea of Christianity then count me out.

You are welcome to try to dispute that bit of history, but include references. I don’t trust your opinions.

Mr. Kalamata

>>Bro, I was following the conversation. When you ask an outlandish question be prepared to be challenged.<<

Baloney.

>>If you can’t handle the discussion then go watch youtube or something else.<<

It appears from your attitude that you are having difficulty handling the conversation.

Mr. Kalamata

>>>>ampu: Scripture says “every eye” including Jewish eyes will see him. Hasn’t happened in history.<<<<
>>>kal: The scripture says it happened.<<<

>>Please show us.<<

Okay.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” — Rev 1:1-3 KJV

“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” — Rev 1:7 KJV

If you believe “must shortly come to pass” and “the time is at hand” (i.e., “the time is nigh”) means 2000 years, then nothing I say will convince you.

Mr. Kalamata

>>My reply was a perfect response to such an outlandish question such as yours. rief recall...it was you who asked where the resurrection was documented. Hence why I asked the question I did.<<

If you had been paying attention to the conversation you would know why I asked that question.

>>You need to be more precise in your answers vs trying to be cute or snarky.<<

Says the king of snark . . .

Mr. Kalamata

>>Scripture says “every eye” including Jewish eyes will see him. Hasn’t happened in history.<<

The scripture says it happened.

>>Scripture says gods elect will be caught up with Christ in the clouds. Hasn’t happened in history.<<

The scripture says it happened.

>>It seems you spend a lot of mental energy trying to figure out ways to rationalize away scripture to make it support the view you (said) you predecided. Pretty sure that’s classic eisegesis …<<

It seems you were taught what to believe.

Mr. Kalamata

>>Parting of the Red Sea is documented in Exodus. I seriously cannot believe you asked where the resurrection of Christ is documented.<<

Your response is a non sequitur.

>>If you are doubting the resurrection then we have much bigger issues to discuss than the meaning of γῆς.<<

I believe every word of God. I believe God created heaven and earth in six days. I believe God created man from the dust of the ground on the sixth day. I believe God destroyed Sodom by raining fire and brimstone on it. I believe God parted the Red Sea. I believe the gospels that say Jesus rose from the dead. I believe Jesus when he said he would return to gather his elect during his own generation. I believe every eye saw him return. I believe Satan and his works will be destroyed. I believe the nations will be healed.

Do you doubt any of that? If not, what do you believe?

Mr. Kalamata

>>Where does history record that every eye of the tribes of Israel witnessed Christ coming on the clouds?<<

It depends on how you define “every.” An example of Jesus using the word “every” [πάσῃ] in a limited sense is found in this commandment:

“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” — Mar 16:15 KJV

Paul said that the gospel had been preached to every [πάσῃ] creature under heaven before he wrote the letter to the Colossians:

“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” — Col 1:23 KJV

If I was a strict literalist who interpreted each word as if it had no limitations, I would have to call Paul a liar. But I know the Holy Spirit doesn’t lie, so I am obliged to believe the commandment to preach the gospel to every creature was fulfilled.

>>Where does history record every Jew being caught up worldwide into the clouds?<<

History has not recorded that, nor will it ever. Only a remnant of Israel was saved:

“Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.” — Rom 9:27-28 KJV

Mr. Kalamata

>>1. Paul did not say some of His audience would be alive.<<

Grammatically, that is exactly what he said.

>>2. The Spirit nor Paul lied. You misinterpreted the passage Mr K.<<

I would almost certainly misinterpret if I ignored the grammar and those to whom he addressed the letters.

>>When we’re all believer alive caught up into the clouds?<<

If you believe Paul was writing that letter to you, rather than the Thessalonians, then we disagree.

>>Where is that major event recorded in history?<<

Where is the parting of the Red Sea recorded in history? The resurrection of Christ?

Mr. Kalamata

I want phone spam outlawed.

Mrs. K

>>>>The underlying Greek word for “earth” is γῆς, which without qualifiers, can and typically does mean the land of Israel.<<<<

>>In some passages it does mean Israel, but it can also mean the actual earth.<<

Yes. Generally, it can mean soil, ground, land, and the earth. It can also mean other things colloquially, such as the Temple’s inner and outer courts as in 2 Peter 3:10. But I have found that it is frequently mistranslated to mean the entire earth when the historical context is a region or nation.

The most consequential to eschatology, in my opinion, is Revelation 1:7. In context it says that some who pierced him would still be alive. Jesus said that when he returned, his disciples (or at least some of them) would witness his return. Therefore, a more contextually sound understanding of “every eye” seems to be the eyes of “the tribes of the land of Israel” when all scripture and historical records are considered.

>>As in all these situations the context of the passage(s) and overall use of the word will help us understand the proper meaning.<<

I have found that the context applied is influenced by one’s eschatology. For example, I have always believed that Jesus and the apostles were speaking and writing almost exclusively to their contemporaries, and not to me; so I tend to place myself in their shoes as much as possible when interpreting (as I do with all historical writings.) Others tend to interpret the prophecies of Jesus and the apostles to be referring to modern times.

Mr. Kalamata

>> And then shall be seen the attesting miracle of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the people of the earth shall beat their breasts in anguish, and they shall see the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. “And He shall send on a mission His angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather together in one place His chosen-out ones from the four winds, from the uttermost parts of heaven to the other.”<<

>>Neither occurred. Christ said they would.<<

How do you know they did not occur? What is meant by “parts of heaven”? What is meant by the “clouds of heaven”? Describe the miracle of the Son of Man in heaven.

The Greek word φυλή is typically translated as “tribes” or “kindreds,” not people. See:

Mat 19:28, 24:30; Luk 2:36, 22:30; Acts 13:21; Rom 11:1; Phi 3:5; Heb 7:13-14; Jas 1:1; Rev 1:7, 5:5, 5:9, 7:4-9, 11:9, 13:7, 14:6, 21:12

Paul said this to the Thessalonians:

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” — 1Th 4:16-17 KJV

The “we” in “Then we which are alive...” is a 1st Person Plural Pronoun. Paul said that some in his audience of Thessalonians would still be alive when Christ returned. Recall:

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” — John 16:13 KJV

Either the Holy Spirit lied to Paul and did not show him “things to come,” or the Lord returned exactly when and the way Paul said he would. I choose the latter.

Mr. Kalamata

>>Here is a literal Greek translation, which contradicts what you added…<<
Matthew 24:29–31 “And then shall be seen the attesting miracle of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the people of the earth shall beat their breasts in anguish, and they shall see the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. “And He shall send on a mission His angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather together in one place His chosen-out ones from the four winds, from the uttermost parts of heaven to the other.”

According to the words that follow, his audience, and when the other Synoptic contexts are compared, those events occurred in the generation of Christ. For example, Jesus told his disciples:

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled... Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. “ — Luk 21:20-22, 32 KJV

So, when did his disciples see Jerusalem compassed with armies?

>> This is an event seen worldwide by “all the peoples of the world.” Jews are gathered from across the world.<<

The underlying Greek word for “earth” is γῆς, which without qualifiers, can and typically does mean the land of Israel.

>>Neither happened during the destruction of Jerusalem.<<

I was not there, so I tend to rely on the scripture and historical records rather than the varying dogmatic opinions of others.

Mr. Kalamata

>>It’s extraordinary, the lengths they will go to backfill a preferred view of the end times.<<

The End-Times Industrial Complex is big business that has filled Christian bookstores to the rafters with brightly-colored, scary books. There are so many books on the so-called “antichrist” that someone could start an Antichrist-of-the-Month Book Club.

The post-apostolic corruption of the narrative, which has deceived and destroyed the lives of many over the centuries, probably began in the 2nd century:

“[T]here was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place.” [Justin Martyr,”Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew”, in Roberts & Donaldson, “Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers.” Charles Scribner’s Sons, Amer. Ed, 1913, Chap.LXXXI, p.240]

That is a mischaracterization of what John wrote. Not too many decades after that was written the mysterious “Antichrist” appeared in the popular narrative (Irenaeus).

Mr. Kalamata

>>CLUE #2: In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus ties the passing of heaven and earth with the passing of the Law. So, if the Law has already passed away and we are now under Grace, we must be in the new heaven and new earth now!<<

John gave us a clue: “no more sea”

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.” — Rev 21:1 KJV

The physical temple was divided into three parts which the Hebrews nicknamed: 1) the heaven (the Holy of Holies); 2) the earth (the Inner Court); and 3) the sea (the Outer Court). Gentiles were not allowed into the inner court. The new, spiritual temple has no outer court — no sea — so it is open to all who keep His commandments.

Dan

>>Might want to check your understanding of the two Greek words and how they’re used in the texts.<<

That is not very helpful. If you disagree perhaps you will find the time to point me to the error of my ways.

Mr. Kalamata

>>>>It appears that happened in 66 AD, shortly before the Jews rebelled and the war began. Two historians, a Rabbi and a pagan, recorded eyewitness accounts of an army flying in the clouds over the cities of Israel at that time (I posted the references in a previous post.) Neither would have been influence by the prophecies of Christ.<<<<

>>Sounds wholly inadequate that less than a handful of people witnessed the Second Coming - one of the most important events in history.<<

I will agree that it was the most important event in history to the faithful of Israel, and the worst to the unfaithful Israelites.

>>“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.”<<

Another way to interpret the Greek is:

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the [land of Israel] mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” — Mat 24:30

Mr. Kalamata