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Posts by Sherman Logan

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  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 1:04:48 PM PDT · 332 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to RKBA Democrat

    If trying to use facts in a discussion will get me canned, so be it. I always try to be polite, but apparently some don’t like others to have different opinions, and their preferred way of dealing with that is to silence the dissenter.

    And here I always thought reversing Roe would mean returning the abortion issue to the states, which is where IMO it always should have been. In what way is that not a conservative position?

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 12:57:36 PM PDT · 327 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to wagglebee
    Anywhere I said I didn't believe the fetus is a person? Please point that out to me.

    I believe in the original Constitution. Since abortion was legal in every state, up to quickening, at the Founding and generally for many decades thereafter, it is obvious, at least to me, that the Founders did not see the pre-quickening fetus as a person.

    Therefore I'm not justified in reading into the Constitution what I wish it had said.

    Abortion was illegal in every state at the time of the Constitution. Granted, it was only a misdemeanor before the "quickening," but this has more to do with the understanding of development.

    References please.

  • My promised article concerning McCain and the USS Forrestal(CV-59) Fire

    07/23/2015 12:43:42 PM PDT · 20 of 125
    Sherman Logan to Hillarys Gate Cult

    I’m curious how his plane blowing up under him while on deck could in any way be construed as his fault.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 11:05:28 AM PDT · 318 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to DoodleDawg

    I would too. Can’t seem to find it. If you run across any numbers, I’d appreciate a ping.

    I’m not talking here about cotton shipped out of a port, but cotton shipped out of a port to overseas.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 10:49:15 AM PDT · 317 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to Triple

    Sorry, I referred to the wrong concept. The justification for Lincoln’s actions was martial law, not suspension of habeas corpus, though B is included in A.

    Re: Ex parte Milligan, decided after the war.

    No, the Court said. The President can declare martial law when circumstances warrant it: When the civil authority cannot operate, then martial law is not only constitutional, but would be necessary: “If, in foreign invasion or civil war, the courts are actually closed, and it is impossible to administer criminal justice according to law, then, on the theatre of active military operations, where war really prevails, there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority, thus overthrown, to preserve the safety of the army and society; and as no power is left but the military, it is allowed to govern by martial rule until the laws can have their free course. As necessity creates the rule, so it limits its duration; for, if this government is continued after the courts are reinstated, it is a gross usurpation of power. Martial rule can never exist where the courts are open, and in the proper and unobstructed exercise of their jurisdiction. It is also confined to the locality of actual war.”

    Note the court did not decide all Lincoln’s actions under martial law were unjustified, only those outside the immediate area of military operations. This had not been settled law until this Supreme Court decision.

    http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_mlaw.html

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 10:35:30 AM PDT · 313 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to DoodleDawg

    I believe that is mostly what happened. Unless you choose to believe ships traveled from NYC empty to load cotton in southern ports. Or that they traveled empty from Europe to southern ports.

    I believe most cotton was carried by coastal ships from the South to NYC, where it was loaded onto ships to cross the Atlantic. Presumably those ships loaded a good chunk of the imported goods to travel back to their southern ports.

    NYC was the #1 cotton export port, followed by New Orleans and Mobile, but I think at quite some distance.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 10:03:53 AM PDT · 311 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to SeekAndFind

    You always know you’re in trouble when the first paragraph contains a glaring untruth, something that can be immediately shown by consulting any dictionary.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 10:02:24 AM PDT · 310 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to Triple

    BTW, the EP did free slaves in areas under Union control. Large areas in the Mississippi Valley and along the southern coast were not excluded. 25,000 to 50,000 slaves were freed immediately in those areas.

    More importantly, as Union armies advanced through the rest of the war, wherever they went slaves were freed.

    By the end of the was, somewhere around 90% of the slaves were freed by the EP. Yet people still run around saying it didn’t free any slaves.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 9:59:41 AM PDT · 309 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to Triple

    Not to his mind. The Constitution allows for suspension of civil rights in case of invasion or rebellion. Both of which were in progress at the time.

    You might want to look up how the Founders handled the Tories, many of whom were just honest men who didn’t change their loyalties fast enough.

    They were dealt with, by the Founders themselves, much more harshly than Rebels were.

    BTW, Lincoln’s statement that he had no right to interfere with slavery within a state other than as a military matter was not sudden. He’d been saying it over and over in public for most of a decade.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 9:56:23 AM PDT · 308 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to DoodleDawg

    Gotta partially disagree with you on this one. New York was the primary point of entry because it was about the closest to Europe. A given ship could make more trips in a year, and more money for the owner, than by making the much longer trips to New Orleans.

    NYC also had probably the best rail routes to the interior of any eastern port. It was the port most immigrants wanted to go to.

    The point, however, really ought to be that Williams’ claim is flat untrue, and the implication he tries to draw from that untrue claim is also inaccurate.

    There is simply no reason to believe imports were consumed more heavily by southerners than by the nation as a whole. Thus they did not pay more in tariffs than anybody else.

    They did have a legitimate beef about protective tariffs. But those were not sectional in their effects, they were occupational.

    Workers and owners in the protected industries got the benefits. Everybody else, north and south, paid the costs.

    A farmer in OH paid exactly the same tariff on imported machinery as a planter in MS.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 9:45:42 AM PDT · 305 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to EternalVigilance

    Roe in and of itself did not do quite what you say.

    It’s been quite a while since I read the decision, but if I remember correctly it:

    prohibited states from interfering with abortion in the 1st trimester,

    allowed states to put reasonable restrictions for the 2nd trimester,

    allowed states to prohibit abortion entirely in the 3rd trimester.

    While my memory may be off in these details, this is certainly a far cry from our present “abortion on demand up till the baby is halfway out” situation.

    While I disagree with most of Roe, it did not cause the present situation, it just started the movement toward it.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 8:06:37 AM PDT · 297 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to Boogieman

    I should also note that we have several times in our history had rights severely restricted in time of war, not just by Lincoln.

    Wilson, with arguably much less justification, probably was more repressive in this regard than Lincoln.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 8:05:15 AM PDT · 296 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to Boogieman

    Quite right.

    Lincoln had an interesting comment on this issue.

    “The constitution itself makes the distinction; and I can no more be persuaded that the government can constitutionally take no strong measure in time of rebellion, because it can be shown that the same could not be lawfully taken in time of peace, than I can be persuaded that a particular drug is not good medicine for a sick man, because it can be shown to not be good food for a well one. Nor am I able to appreciate the danger, apprehended by the meeting, that the American people will, by means of military arrests during the rebellion, lose the right of public discussion, the liberty of speech and the press, the law of evidence, trial by jury, and Habeas corpus, throughout the indefinite peaceful future which I trust lies before them, any more than I am able to believe that a man could contract so strong an appetite for emetics during temporary illness, as to persist in feeding upon them through the remainder of his healthful life.”

    http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/corning.htm

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 8:00:02 AM PDT · 294 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to Boogieman

    Fair enough. But you do realize a consequence of that position is that no government set up on that basis can long endure, don’t you?

    Maybe that’s ok, but it would tend to mean either the majority constantly giving in to the minority, or the minority jumping ship and setting up for themselves.

    Again, maybe that’s fine with you, but at least recognize that’s the inevitable result.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 7:58:02 AM PDT · 293 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to EternalVigilance

    I agree with the Roe decision only with regard to its saying that the Founders did not intend to create protection for fetal life from conception.

    Since abortion prior to quickening was legal in every state at the time, and restrictions were enacted only gradually over the 19th century, that conclusion to me seems inevitable.

    I would, however, be all in favor of states restricting or prohibiting abortion entirely, or an amendment that would do so.

    My objection is constitutional, not that I approve of abortion.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 7:29:53 AM PDT · 285 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to Boogieman

    This quandary is of course exactly what Lincoln talked about at Gettysburg.

    Any government from which a minority can withdraw at will cannot “long endure.”

    That may be fine with you, but it is an issue.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 7:25:09 AM PDT · 283 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to EternalVigilance

    I’ve read the Roe decision, and I think its determination that a fetus is not “a person” within the meaning of the Constitution and its amendments is correct.

    Certainly none of the Founders had any idea they were prohibiting abortion, which was widely practiced at the time.

    Here’s James Wilson, one of the Founders:

    “With consistency, beautiful and undeviating, human life, from its commencement to its close, is protected by the common law. In the contemplation of law, life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb. By the law, life is protected not only from immediate destruction, but from every degree of actual violence, and, in some cases, from every degree of danger.[6]”

    Their understanding of fetal life was of course flawed, but I’m not sure we’re entitled to retrospectively change the meaning of the Constitution as desired. To me such a Constitution is a little too living.

    I respect those who believe otherwise, but that’s my opinion.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 7:17:51 AM PDT · 281 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to Boogieman
    But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty once lost is lost forever.

    I realize Adams is a revered Founder, but that doesn't make this statement true.

    History is replete with examples of tyrants gaining power only to eventually be overthrown.

    For example, most Latin American countries are presently more or less democratic. 50 years ago very few were.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 7:14:30 AM PDT · 279 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to rockrr

    Quite.

    I will note that my contribution to this thread has been primarily to point out the many statements made by WW that are factually incorrect. Just flat untrue.

    Lots of people want to argue with me, but few if any try to show that the statements I question are actually true.

    I have no axe to grind with against the South. I’ll be the first to agree their cause was not without some validity. And that they believed, probably accurately, that to maintain their way of life secession and probably war was absolutely necessary.

    I just disagree that their way of life was worth dying and killing for. I also object to lies and distortions about history.

    I am really, really disappointed in Mr. Williams. I thought he was above producing such nonsense.

  • HISTORICAL IGNORANCE II: Forgotten facts about Lincoln, slavery and the Civil War

    07/23/2015 6:52:07 AM PDT · 272 of 1,087
    Sherman Logan to Triple

    Not really. He was consistently opposed to the institution, but until well into a war launched by the slavers, he held that he or Congress had no constitutional right to interfere with the institution within a state.

    He repeatedly expressed his desire that all men be free, and pushed hard for restriction on slavery’s expansion, which Congress did have the right to control. He tried to get Union slave states to agree to compensated emancipation, and for that matter offered it to the seceded states if they’d return to the Union.

    I see nothing at all that is flip-floppery here. For instance, I’m quite opposed to abortion, but I recognize that the Constitution says nothing about it. Therefore it defaults to state control.

    Given today’s political environment, that means probably well over half the states would allow abortion, perhaps with some restrictions, if Roe were repealed. But that’s the price of actually believing in the Constitution. It says what it says, not what I think it ought to say.

    Lincoln, to my mind, viewed slavery similarly.

    Which is not to say his attitude towards black people did not evolve over time. In his last speech, he implied he’d push for the franchise for at least some blacks. This is what sent Booth over the edge into determination to kill him.