Posts by SpringheelJack

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  • New Jersey: Obama-McCain a Toss-Up

    03/02/2008 4:32:08 PM PST · 26 of 80
    SpringheelJack to Grunthor
    McCain, liberal enough to have a shot in N.J.

    George W. Bush won 46% of the vote in New Jersey in '04, so NJ should be a state Republicans can compete it regardless.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 3:52:36 PM PST · 338 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers
    Tell ya what, Freepmail me the contents of #284 and #290, so I can see for myself.

    Will do.

  • Campaigners bid to clear the 'witch' who leaked WWII secrets about sinking battleship[UK]

    03/02/2008 3:29:04 PM PST · 40 of 49
    SpringheelJack to elcid1970
    No wonder so many or her crew died

    After seeing that video it astounded me to read that 400 men of her 1250 man crew survived. I was expecting something terrible to the degree of HMS Hood.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 3:06:12 PM PST · 336 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers; Religion Moderator; Swordmaker
    Which is why it was *your* post #290 which was deleted, not his.

    That's what I've been trying to find out from the Religion Moderator privately. My guess is that you or someone else reported it and #296 to the Mod and that's all they checked, because if those two posts are unacceptable then there are some of Swordmaker's and yours that absolutely need to go. Heck, you yourself ought to be suspended.

    Anyone who wants copies of my original posts can Freepmail me. Suffice it to say that if you believe the comments in 293 and 284 by Swordmaker are accurate you should see what I wrote in reply.

    Have fun in the garage; after completely misstating the status of McCrone's work in mainstream science and the standing of his critics you deserve a rest.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 2:42:52 PM PST · 334 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers

    They’re all peer-reviewed, and the claims to the contrary that have been made are complete garbage. Very foolish of me to take some people at their word, especially when it was so obvious that McCrone’s research, along with the Carbon 14 tests, were the only ones that had standing in the mainstream scientific and historical communities.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 2:39:13 PM PST · 333 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers; Swordmaker
    Swordmaker got sick of the unwarranted ad hominem. I've actually been *reading* the thread.

    Swordmaker was the initiator of the ad hominem, and his conduct thoroughly reprehensible. You've taken the baton.

    McCrone's work was published in peer-reviewed journals and has received the endorsement of mainstream scientists, internet falsehoods and ad hominems aside.

    If you want to own up to your laziness in failing to find out which article by Rogers was actually been commented on and chastised for its unserious attitude towards research, I'm all ears, but until then there's little point in pretending to respond to it. This is what, the third time you've stamped your feet and tried to change the subject in a purported reply to the observation?

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 2:24:34 PM PST · 330 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers

    There was one man, David Stony, who wrote and sent a nomination of McCrone for the award. There is no evidence that the award was improperly awarded or undeserved. You’re completely making it up.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 2:09:36 PM PST · 328 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers

    You were just baiting yourself, and it seems all you earned out of it was a lot of humiliation and loss of credit.

    If your conduct represents the emotions and behavior a holy relic inspires in its believers, then the world might as well return it to the devil, for I can’t see Jesus having anything do with this thing.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 2:01:12 PM PST · 327 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers

    Keep twisting yourself in circles. It would have been a lot easier just to admit you misunderstood what was being referred to, instead of dancing around accountability like a troll. It’s not like anyone is going to not notice that you didn’t know what was being talked about and were too lazy to follow a link and find out.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 1:56:26 PM PST · 326 of 351
    SpringheelJack to Swordmaker; grey_whiskers

    You should be less impressed, because grey_whiskers completely made it up.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 1:54:50 PM PST · 325 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers
    McCrone published his findings in three different journals, all peer-reviewed -- The Microscope, Wiener Berichte uber Naturwissenschaft in der Kunst, and Accounts of Chemical Research. Claims to the contrary turn out to be false, which is little surprise to me since they never sounded right. http://www.mcri.org/home/section/63-64/the-shroud-of-turin

    It's his results, and those of corroborating teams like the Carbon 14 testers, which are highly respected in the mainstream scientific community.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 1:19:58 PM PST · 318 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers
    I was quoting an earlier paper than the one you supplied. Why?

    Because you didn't know what the hell was being talked about, clearly, and were too lazy to follow the link and check.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 1:08:40 PM PST · 316 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers
    Your assertion was that McCrone was not mainstream, which is complete bullocks and something you don't even attempt to back up.

    And your attack on the ACS Award in Analytical Chemistry is ridiculous. From Cornell University's Department of Chemistry newsletter: "It has just been announced that Professor Fred W. McLafferty has won the prestigious American Chemical Society Award in Analytical Chemistry sponsored by the Fisher Scientific Company. This is the country's leading award in analytical chemistry. Pro- fessor George Morrison of our faculty won it in 1971. With the present award to Fred McLafferty we now have official recognition of what we have known all along— that our Department has one of the leading programs in analytical chemistry in the country, and two of the world's leading analytical chemists" newsletter

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 12:53:41 PM PST · 314 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers; Swordmaker

    McCrone’s studies have been endorsed by the American Chemical Society, the leading publisher of peer-reviewed research journals in the chemical sciences. It is not the mainstream view of science that the Shroud was created by the carcass of a dead man, and the problems with the pro-Shroud research have been discussed ad nauseum.

    Your bitch about the criticisms of Rogers’ methodology is silly, for the critics are referring to another article which is clearly explained on the link. And you speak of my “haste.” I won’t accuse you of deliberate omission like you try to insinuate me of — you’re just galled at Swordmaker’s exposure.

    I’m not a scientist, I’m a layman citing the research and conclusions that the vast bulk of scientists respect.

  • Campaigners bid to clear the 'witch' who leaked WWII secrets about sinking battleship[UK]

    03/02/2008 11:33:31 AM PST · 16 of 49
    SpringheelJack to BGHater
    I doubt there's much warrant for pardoning her. I think what leaves people agape is that there was still a "Witchcraft" law in Britain that she ended up being tried under, but according to the BBC "she was the last person in Britain to be jailed under the act, which was repealed in 1951 and replaced with the Fraudulent Mediums Act".

    I don't have a problem with a Fraudulent Mediums Act, and this woman was definitely a fraud. What seems to have drawn special attention to her is that some of her clients were privy to state secrets which she ended up leaking in order to establish her bonafides.

  • Why Are U.S. Troops So Hard To Kill?

    03/02/2008 11:05:47 AM PST · 16 of 39
    SpringheelJack to John Jorsett

    While I think the author’s on to something, in that advanced weapons systems, medical care, and tactics, have decreased the risk of casualties and fatalities, I think he’s really off base comparing our current wars with WW2 or Korea. A better set of comparisons would be with Russia’s Afghan War and other guerrilla wars. Of the conflicts he listed I think only the 2006 Israeli operation in Lebanon is really comparable.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 10:00:54 AM PST · 309 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers
    The pyrolysis mass spec was not done primarily to check vanillin, but to look for paint!....How could you refer to Rogers' pyrolysis mass spec and use it to 'refute' presence of vanillin, but NEGLECT TO MENTION THE MAIN POINT OF THE PAPER ???? T.W.N.F.P. !! (There was *no* f'ing paint!)

    If you'd bothered to read the link I supplied, you'd find that the discussion was of a paper called "Studies on the Radiocarbon Sample from the Shroud of Turin" published by Raymond Rogers in 2005. Vanillin, for example, is nowhere mentioned in this new article. As for this article, one major problem that I see with it from the getgo is that he uses "contaminated" fibers left over from McCrone's research, but only after they were "laboriously cleaned and prepared" by his wife. McCrone studied it prior to Mrs. Rogers' "laborious" cleaning and found paint pigments, something Rogers weirdly doesn't mention, and given the criticisms of his later paper for faulty and non-serious methodology you may take it for whatever you think it's worth.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 9:09:02 AM PST · 307 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers
    I asked what *YOU* had to lose by admitting it -- why are you afraid of facing the fact that the Shroud wrapped a real dead body?

    Nothing. But I don't consider it a fact since the mainstream scientific and historical community do not recognize it as one.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 9:02:39 AM PST · 306 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers
    Game, set, and match. Buh-bye, troll. Thanks for playing. Cheers!

    By now you're just trolling, and I don't know that it's worth my effort, but claiming McCrone is not mainstream is just internet key-hammering.

    Of course McCrone is mainstream. He's the only Shroud of Turin researcher that I know of graced with a biography in the Encyclopedia Britannica, a recognized expert in microscopy, a consultant on many different projects, and in 2000 McCrone received the American Chemical Society's National Award in Analytical Chemistry for his work on the Shroud of Turin -- including his findings that the image and blood were composed with pigments of ochre and vermilion.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 8:27:20 AM PST · 304 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers

    If it gives you satisfaction to believe that the Shroud represents an anonymous 14th century dead man, by all means think so, but mainstream science recognizes no body tissues on the shroud, only pigments of red ochre and vermilion. If you feel peeved at me arguing from competent and well-esteemed authority, well, I’m happy to be in their company. Not so thrilled though to have you imagining me masturbating. I’ll do without the back-story on that one.

  • '9/11 attacks made up, ' says French best actress Oscar-winner

    03/02/2008 7:37:01 AM PST · 27 of 115
    SpringheelJack to Alouette

    She’s just your average entertainment moron. If she were homegrown in America she’d probably know better than to say that, but in France the range of nutty things you can say about America without direct response is probably a lot wider.

    It is a little jarring, though, to see someone so pretty reaching for her tin foil.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/02/2008 6:53:21 AM PST · 297 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers
    What on Earth do you lose by admitting the Shroud might really have been used to wrap a dead body?

    Ask all the mainstream scientists and historians who say it's a 14th century piece of art; you know where to find all the references.

  • Barack Obama and Me

    03/02/2008 12:06:20 AM PST · 7 of 9
    SpringheelJack to bahblahbah

    I can see why this guy had such a tough job getting hired at a newspaper: he doesn’t know what’s gold and what’s dross, and to make anything out of him an editor would need to work overtime.

    Cutting out the chaff about himself, it seems the most important bits are on pages 2 and 4. According to him, the legislative accomplishments Obama trumpets were nearly all passed in a single year of his legislative career, after one of his bosses had decided to pump Obama into a candidate for major office. By the boss’s initiative, Obama co-opted bills that many of his more senior and accomplished colleagues had already did the grunt work on so he could get the credit for them. Other than when he had his puppetmaster, Obama was largely a legislative failure. His failures also all occurred when Republicans were the majority party in the legislature, which undercut his claims of being able to work productively across the aisle.

    On page 4, there’s some stuff about Obama’s work to disqualify potential opponents. I think this is less important than the material on page 2, though in political terms it might be more damaging to his image.

  • It's no slur to be called a Muslim

    03/01/2008 11:49:37 PM PST · 34 of 48
    SpringheelJack to Siberian-psycho

    Well that’s interesting. I hadn’t realized that photo would get the left-wingers mad at him — for too aggressively rejecting the insinuations of that photo. I’ve been assuming that the Democrats are so hungry for a presidential victory that their candidate has a free leash on just about everything, but I might be underestimating the tidal pull of identity politics.

  • Hillary Clinton slams Barack Obama as 'all hat and no cattle'

    03/01/2008 11:33:55 PM PST · 106 of 118
    SpringheelJack to shrinkermd
    I hope the McCain campaign committee is taking notes. Hillary makes powerful arguments but the leftists and identity politics makes Senator Obama immune from logical argumentation.

    I don't know. I've been surprised by how weak most of her attacks have been. She has some good points that we will use ourselves, like the vapidity of his message and his lack of experience, but nothing that really constitutes a killing blow (at least as delivered by herself). I have a feeling our most potent argument might be Obama's doctrinaire liberalism, which is reflected in his divisive and extremist associations (black separatist churches, radical left wing terrorists).

  • Will.i.am makes another Obama song {Mega Barf Alert}

    03/01/2008 11:19:37 PM PST · 31 of 35
    SpringheelJack to ATOMIC_PUNK

    That might be the creepiest political ad I’ve ever seen. It makes parody almost redundant.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/01/2008 11:10:46 PM PST · 292 of 351
    SpringheelJack to Swordmaker
    Just the face? I don't think so.

    Let's look at the part of that quote you omitted (which I'll put in bold):

    "This reflection, however – let everyone be inspired with the explanation – has been imprinted only by the sweat from the face of the originator of life, falling like drops of blood, and by the finger of God. For these are the beauties that have made up the true imprint of Christ, since after the drops fell, it was embellished by drops from his own side. Both are highly instructive – blood and water there, here sweat and image. Oh equality of happenings, since both have their origin in the same person. The source of living water can be seen and it gives us water, showing us that the origin of the image made by sweat is in fact of the same nature as the origin of that which makes the liquid flow from the side."

    From the references in Gregory's sermon it is clear that the image was only of his face, although the cloth with the facial image appears to have later been "embellished" (his words) with drops of blood. Gregory was also clear in stating that the image was not a reflection of the martyred Jesus. I'll append all that Gregory has to say about the image and how it was formed:

    And so, what exactly is it? By the simple touching to the face of Christ, an image of his form was made, so that people would not think in a dangerous or perilous way that it never actually existed and has been invented.

    [King Abgar said:] But tell me how the image on the linen that cured me was made, since I can see it was not produced with ordinary paint, and explain its special strength, since when I saw it unfolded on your face I was cured of my illness and got up from my bed, and I felt the strength that I had in my body when I was in my prime.

    And Thaddaios answered, "When Ananias, who you entrusted the letters to, said in hope that apart from your health, you also wished to look upon the likeness of his face as it was seen, Jesus told him to come quickly to you with the letter, in which he promised to send you one of his disciples after his ascension, and I am that disciple. But Jesus, undergoing the passion of his own free will, believing that human nature fears death – indeed death comes upon the very nature that was made to live – taking this linen cloth he wiped the sweat that was falling down his face like drops of blood in his agony. And miraculously, just as he made everything from nothing in his divine strength, he imprinted the reflection of his form on the linen.

    I have put it on my face and have shown in silence that this is the reflection of the face you were seeking. It has made itself more visible to you than I have. And best of all, honouring the top part of my body – for the most beautiful part is the face, not that which is below the armpits – I attribute the light shining out not to my own face but rather to the face of the one on the cloth".

    The page I found the quote from Ian Wilson is gargantuan and I didn't even notice the bit from Robert de Clari, but if it refers to anything it's far more likely to be the full-length imaged cloth whose existence is mentioned in Codex Vossianus Latinus Q69, which was supposedly created from the living Christ as a gift to King Abgar.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/01/2008 10:40:18 PM PST · 291 of 351
    SpringheelJack to Swordmaker

    No, it’s not. What little information we had about Tutankhamen was a reflection of how few writings we had from ancient Pharaonic Egypt, until modern-era archaeological digs. Christian literature prior to 1350 is and always has been abundant.

    All references to a cloth with the image of Christ on it prior to 1350 clearly do not refer to the Shroud of Turin, but are reflections of the Veronica and Abgar legends, which purported to document something that the living Christ did.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    03/01/2008 10:22:38 PM PST · 289 of 351
    SpringheelJack to Swordmaker
    My attitude is that of the scientific and historical community, which judges the work of those like McCrone impressive but finds the work of people you want to trumpet lacking. For example, the current Encyclopedia Britannica on McCrone specifically: "His biggest discovery came in 1978 when he concluded that the Shroud of Turin dated back only to the Middle Ages and thus could not have been the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth. McCrone attended Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y., before moving to Chicago, where he was credited with having revolutionized the design and use of light microscopes and electron microscopes and with having led the growth of his research institute as it attained the status of a world leader."

    Those "findings" that the 1988 tests were invalid aren't truly findings. As discussed in the article below, it relied on a bogus study for the claim that the sample derived from a 16th century patch, analyzed threads that had serious chain of custody issues, and used methods that other scientists have called unserious.

    As pointed out by Antonio Lombatti (personal communication), editor of Approfondimento Sindone, the skeptical international journal of scholarship and science devoted to the Shroud of Turin, only after one month of careful study on where to cut the linen samples for dating were the samples removed from the Shroud. This process was observed personally by Mons. Dardozzi (Vatican Academy of Science), Prof. Testore (Turin University professor of textile technology), Prof. Vial (Director of the Lyon Ancient Textiles Museum), Profs. Hall and Hedges (heads of the Oxford radiocarbon dating laboratory) and Prof. Tite (head of the British Museum research laboratory). There is no way these scientists and scholars could have made such an error and failed to see that the cloth samples they removed was really from a patch, "invisibly" rewoven or not.

    Detailed photographs of the area from which the sample was removed clearly reveal that there was no patch there. (How could Benford and Marino's unnamed "textile experts" observe the correct proportions of 1st century and 16th century threads from the "patch" using photographs, while the legitimate experts named above--using both photographs and personal examination of the actual Shroud!--miss seeing that there was a patch there in the first place?) There is no 16th century patch in the area from where the 14C samples were removed; patches can be found only where the fire had burned the linen in 1532, and of course there is the Holland backing cloth. Both the patches and Holland cloth have weaves completely different from the Shroud's distinct herringbone pattern, which was easily identifiable by the radiocarbon dating scientists when they processed the cloth sample. Benford and Marino laughably publish a photo of a historical Shroud replica that they claim shows a missing corner section that was later patched; but this photo is a low-resolution JPEG image and the "missing corner" is really an artifact produced when low-resolution JPEG images are magnified beyond their true size! This anecdote just further illustrates their incompetence.

    The tiny patch threads that Rogers analyzed are suspect: there is no official record of the supposed removal or donation of the radiocarbon dating sample threads or the Raes sample threads Rogers claims to possess (personal communication, Antonio Lombatti). "I received samples of both warp and weft threads that Prof. Luigi Gonella had taken from the radiocarbon sample before it was distributed for dating. Gonella reported that he excised the threads from the center of the radiocarbon sample" (p. 190). If Gonella's statement is true, then he seriously violated the protocols of sample removal and performed an irresponsible act. Furthermore, to receive threads of this spurious sample at this late date suggests that the threads are suspect and not to be trusted as really being from the sample sent out for radiocarbon dating. Rogers' entire argument rests on his analysis of these two tiny threads and the addiitonal Raes sample threads he claims to possess. I have no evidence to disprove Rogers' claim that the Raes sample fibers--supplied to him by Luigi Gonella and supposedly taken from the original Raes sample adjacent to the radiocarbon samples--are from the Shroud ("I received 14 yarn segments from the Raes sample from Prof. Luigi Gonella . . . "; p. 189). But I question this claim also, since this was also undocumented and unsanctioned. The samples used by the academic radiocarbon labs to date the Shroud, on the other hand, were officially removed, witnessed, and sanctioned. Are Rogers' two tiny threads truly from the same sample as the ones used for radiocarbon dating? If not, Rogers' entire argument is invalid, since Rogers' claim is that the radiocarbon samples have completely different chemical properties than the main part of the Shroud, and he purports that his two tiny threads are representative of the radiocarbon-dated samples. He could only know this if the threads he tested were actually from the same sample used for radiocarbon dating, and we must trust the words of Rogers and Gonella for this (for Rogers' word, see below).

    The alleged differences between the Raes sample and the main Shroud samples that Rogers elucidates include (1) different amounts of vanillin (main Shroud absent, Raes sample present), (2) cotton fibers and madder root dye in the Raes sample, but none in the main Shroud samples, and (3) the Raes fibers have been "dyed" with some chemical, but not the fibers of the main Shroud. Rogers is incorrect about all of these. For the different amounts of vanillin, see below. It has long been known that cotton fibers occur elsewhere in the Shroud, being observed by several investigators including Italian textile experts and Walter McCrone. I don't doubt that cotton fiber impurities made their way into the flax used to make the linen cloth; it would be difficult to keep them separate, and contrary to Rogers, such fibers are found throughout the Shroud. As for madder root dye, McCrone detected rose madder pigment on the Shroud's blood areas and reported this. It is reasonable to believe that this pigment could have ended up anywhere on the Shroud, including a non-blood area. Finally, the entire Shroud is covered by a coating of very thin tempera protein paint used by the artist as a binder; its oxidation over time gives the Shroud its characteristic sepia color (very slightly yellowish-brown; natural linen is white). The tempera binder was not used as a paint but to shape or mold the linen over a bas relief carving or cast, and was used to bind the loose particles of red ocher pigment when still damp. Rogers identifies this as a "dye" only on the Raes threads, but in fact all Shroud fibers have this thin tempera coating and characteristic color, as is readily perceived by simply viewing the photographs. Rogers identification of a colored "dye" is the first admission by a STURP member that fibers of the Shroud have been painted or coated.

    Rogers' new method of using the amount of vanillin in a sample to determine its age is useless and incompetent. According to Rogers, the vanillin in known Shroud fibers is missing, but the Raes "patch" fibers do possess vanillin from his tests. Thus, he concludes that the amount of vanillin (a breakdown product of flax over time) can be used to age date his samples, and because "the Shroud and other very old linens do not give the vanillin test, the cloth must be very old," thus making it "very unlikely that the linen was produced during medieval times." But this is nonsense: to demonstrate the efficacy of his new dating method and thus prove his claim of age discrepancy, Rogers first must date his Shroud samples by independent methods and must demonstrate the effectiveness of his method using other independent samples, and he fails to do both of these! Rogers refers to the presence of vanillin in "all other medieval linens," but he provides no evidence to support this statement.

    Jay Ingram, writing in the Toronto Star, discusses a topic with which I was not familiar. Ingram interviewed Clint Chapple, a biochemist at Purdue University, and Malcolm Campbell, a botanist at the University of Toronto. Chapple points out that it was odd that Rogers used a powerful and precise technique, pyrolysis mass spectrometry, to assess the carbohydrates in the cloth, but didn't choose to apply that technique to the vanillin. This was odd because the incredible accuracy of this technique as applied to vanillin is scientifically well-documented. "I've published using this method and have this instrument in my own lab. The method would have easily revealed the presence (or absence) of degradation products like vanillin had the author been seriously interested in testing his hypothesis," Chapple says. Instead, Rogers used a staining technique that reveals the presence of vanillin if you get a color change. But this is a qualitative, not a quantitative test.

    Malcolm Campbell states that, "in biological sciences, a scientist would be hard-pressed to get their paper published if they ever attempted to quantify vanillin on the basis of this staining technique." Staining is a rough guide to the presence of vanillin and cannot detect very small amounts. (In fact, the pyrolysis mass spectrometry was conducted by STURP in 1981 when they had access to the facility, but Rogers only had his kitchen laboratory, so a poor and inadequate staining technique was all he could manage.) Campbell and Chapple identified other flaws in the paper, such as the same lack of controls and replication that I describe above. As Ingram writes, "these should have been enough to deter the editors of Thermochimica Acta from publishing it. Why didn't they? Maybe they were unfamiliar with the chemistry of linen and its breakdown products; maybe they have a soft spot in their heart for the shroud. Who knows?" Ingram concludes, "the incident just underlines the fact that the Shroud of Turin will never go away, and believers will try anything, including arguments masquerading as science, to prove its authenticity."

    http://www.freeinquiry.com/skeptic//shroud/articles/rogers-ta-response.htm

  • Limbaugh Urges Republicans to Vote for Hillary

    02/28/2008 6:56:19 PM PST · 215 of 244
    SpringheelJack to The_Republican
    Slay the Hildabeast when you have the chance.

    Agree completely. To me, plans like this seem like pure hubris.

  • What caused westward expansion in the United States?

    02/28/2008 6:31:28 PM PST · 66 of 86
    SpringheelJack to MamaB
    I read a story on a genealogy site which said 2 brothers of my direct ancestor were leaders on the first wagon train to go through Donner Pass after that disaster. I only found it one place years ago and have not been able to find it since.

    If you're interested, a good book to check into would be George R. Stewart's "The California Trail". From a quick skim of the text, the leader of the first wagon train after the Donner Party would seem to be Charles Hopper, though other groups arrived soon after on his tails.

  • John Kerry's approval rating still below 50% (Survey USA)

    02/28/2008 6:15:24 PM PST · 18 of 28
    SpringheelJack to Clintonfatigued
    The fact remains that Massachusetts is a heavily Rodent state, yet Kerry’s popularity there is at its lowest point in his career. What do you think is causing the public there to sour on him?

    Can't tell you, but probably the place to look is wherever Kerry and Ted Kennedy are at wrong ends from the moderate and conservative POV. Kerry and Kennedy's support among liberals is pretty identical: +50 point advantage for one, +53 for the other. But with moderates, Kennedy is +17 where Kerry is -2; and with conservatives Kennedy is -17 where Kerry is a whopping -51.

  • John Kerry's approval rating still below 50% (Survey USA)

    02/28/2008 6:09:29 PM PST · 13 of 28
    SpringheelJack to Clintonfatigued

    Get this: 35% of Massachusetts Republicans approve of the job Ted Kennedy is doing as Senator — and 41% of self-described conservatives.

  • Republicans decry use of 'Hussein' in Obama's name (Wimpy GOP determined to lose)

    02/28/2008 5:48:41 PM PST · 65 of 153
    SpringheelJack to Southack
    McCain just wants to run a clean campaign on the issues, where his record is stronger than Obama’s.

    I appreciate that, but a healthy political campaign also throws in some red meat and sly insinuations to keep people laughing and jazzed, and throwing in a few "Barack Hussein Obamas" is perfectly in keeping with that. McCain is spurning his supporters, and creating an unnecessary news story that concedes the point that Republican McCain backers are dirty bigots, for what is in reality ordinary politicking.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    02/28/2008 5:33:23 PM PST · 281 of 351
    SpringheelJack to roamer_1
    It is fairly common knowledge that a man executed by the state would only be given into the hands of a family member.

    I ask again, is this common knowledge founded on anything factual? What Roman law was this, or if the text has not survived, is there an ancient Roman writer who refers to this strict policy?

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    02/28/2008 5:30:33 PM PST · 280 of 351
    SpringheelJack to Swordmaker

    These quotes are a blind alley.
    579- that refers to the gospel account, and it’s a stretch to see this as referring to anything other than the ancient equivalent of seeing a bed with the imprints of someone recently there still present.

    The fallacious “Pope Stephen” quote. Quoting from an excerpt of a book published by Ian Wilson that’s searchable on the net: “For instance, interpolated sometime before 1130 into the text of a sermon attributed to the eighth-century Pope Stephen III was the following remark concerning the `holy face’ of Edessa: `For this same mediator between God and men, in order that in all things and in every way he might satisfy this king [i.e. Abgar] spread out his entire body on a linen cloth that was white as snow. On this cloth, marvellous as it is to see or even hear such a thing, the glorious image of the Lord’s face, and the length of his entire and most noble body, has been divinely transferred ... [italics mine].’” That’s in reference to the Abgar legend, and according to “Stephen” it was done by the living Christ in answer to a request by Abgar for an image, and hence could not possibly refer to the Shroud of Turin with its dead Jesus.

    I just read the Gregory sermon and the image it describes was clearly only of a face, supposedly created while he wept in the Garden of Gethsemane.

    Of what very little I could find on this, Codex Vossianus Latinus Q69 is supposedly describing a cloth given by Christ to King Abgar, at least according to a citation of the original book in Wikipedia, in which case it obviously relates to the false “Pope Stephen” quote of a cloth the living Christ sent to Abgar. I do not understand why the pro-Shroud sites are so circumspect about this.

    The Hymn of the Pearl is irrelevant, and while I’m on the subject, a positing of a 1st century date for it is very fringe.

    We’re again left with the 14th century French bishop, who was clear that the Shroud of Turin had no past beyond a few decades — not to mention there being an identifiable maker who admitted doing the job.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    02/28/2008 4:39:29 PM PST · 279 of 351
    SpringheelJack to Swordmaker
    And Tutankhenamen has a clearly 20th Century history... with very few mentions in history...

    This is a really bad analogy, and it's not true anyway. There are inscriptions from his period, and the insinuation that the bishop was lying reflects a colossal will to believe in something with no history prior to that bishop's lifetime.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    02/28/2008 4:25:14 PM PST · 278 of 351
    SpringheelJack to Swordmaker
    Your sources are not authoritative on the current state of scholarship OR science on the Shroud.

    The current state of scholarship is that the Shroud is a medieval forgery, and attempts by true believers to refute that have been found singularly unimpressive, as those distillations of contemporary thinking about the matter in 252 illustrate. That's peer review. The historical record points to a 14th century date, as does the scientific record. If the Church ever allows a further Carbon-14 test on another piece of the cloth it'll just repeat the 1988 results, though I don't expect the excuse-mongering will ever stop.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    02/28/2008 4:14:04 PM PST · 277 of 351
    SpringheelJack to grey_whiskers
    You are quoting texts in the face of multiple, independent, repeated, converging lines of physical evidence from different sources.

    Oh baloney. The verdict of the scientific and historical community is clear, and the efforts of the fringe who gainsay it are riddled with flaws that those links illustrate.

  • Saviour's Day Celebrates Faradian Islam

    02/26/2008 1:52:12 PM PST · 9 of 14
    SpringheelJack to BGHater

    Fard’s FBI file here: http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/fard.htm

    He was actually born in 1891, of mixed Polynesian and European ancestry, at least according to the FBI investigation. Their opening profile of Fard is refreshingly blunt: “an enterprising racketeering fake.”

  • Too pretty to fly?

    02/26/2008 1:40:08 PM PST · 47 of 48
    SpringheelJack to MotleyGirl70

    They’re not that hot, and way too full of themselves.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    02/26/2008 1:26:48 PM PST · 252 of 351
    SpringheelJack to Swordmaker

    What facts? That the Shroud blood and image is something not made by artistry is completely void of acceptance by the scientific or historical community. The “Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages” (2001), for example:

    “This cloth appeared mysteriously around 1357, in the collegiate church of Lirey... Before that date, history is silent: we find no attestation of this exceptional relic.... The bishops of Troyes were quickly disturbed by the veneration of this new relic, suspect and with no letters of authentication; they thought it recently fabricated and forbade exhibition. This decision gave rise to such contention that Clement VII had to step in; in 1389, he authorized expositions on condition that it was made clear to the faithful that it was not Christ’s shroud, but a “figure or representation” of Christ’s shroud.... Until 1988, scientific research in various fields seemed to authorise the hypothesis of its authenticity, but explained neither the formation of the impression nor of the stains, nor did they date the relic. Indeed they were carried out in difficult experimental conditions: the Shroud is almost inaccessible and the sacred aura of the object provokes very strong preconceptions. In 1988 came a thunderbolt: carbon-14 tests, carried out independently by three laboratories, put the origins of the Shroud between 1260 and 1390 and definitively forbade the attribution of the Holy Shroud to Christ. These tests do not contradict the serious results of earlier researches, which deserve to be resumed with the aim of resolving the mystery of the origin and formation of this medieval relic. (vol. 2, pg. 1347)

    Or the Encyclopedia Britannica (2008):
    “Scholarly analyses—attempting to use scientific methods to prove or disprove its authenticity—have been applied to the shroud since the late 19th century. It was early noticed (1898) that the sepia-tone images on the shroud seem to have the character of photographic negatives rather than positives. Beginning in the 1970s, tests were made to determine whether the images were the result of paints (or other pigments), scorches, or other agents; none of the tests proved conclusive. In 1988 the age of the cloth itself was finally determined. Three laboratories in different countries were provided with postage-stamp–sized pieces of the shroud’s linen cloth. Having subjected these samples to carbon-14 dating, all three laboratories concluded that the cloth of the shroud had been made sometime between AD 1260 and 1390. The Roman Catholic church accepted the results and announced that the Shroud of Turin was not authentic, but the church encouraged Christians to continue venerating the shroud as an inspiring pictorial image of Christ.”

  • McCain rebukes Cunningham

    02/26/2008 12:35:08 PM PST · 51 of 120
    SpringheelJack to KingSnorky

    If you’re going to go out of your way to embarrass a supporter, you better have a darn good reason for it. I don’t see it here. Cunningham’s “gaffe” is innocuous, and McCain is doing the other side’s dirty work for them by declaring the use of Obama’s real middle name offensive. Let Obama look silly and petulant objecting to it.

  • Jimmy Kimmel's Outrageous "Ben Affleck" Video (Warning: Profanity)

    02/26/2008 12:11:32 PM PST · 55 of 62
    SpringheelJack to stylecouncilor

    I agree. That clip of her “You’re Going to Die Soon” song on YouTube is even funnier than this one.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    02/26/2008 11:59:32 AM PST · 246 of 351
    SpringheelJack to MHGinTN

    The answer to my question is nothing then, apparently.

  • Killer apologizes, asks jury to spare him

    02/26/2008 11:57:14 AM PST · 46 of 51
    SpringheelJack to DallasDeb
    Bleach—he probably meant ammonia or got the two confused.

    It sounds like a lame cover story to explain the presence of bleach in her system. (I'd assume the coroner had established already what was there and what wasn't).

    This guy has an excuse for everything. He "accidentally" elbowed her in the throat. He hid the body so his son wouldn't know something bad had happened to his mother.

    His double-talking is going to make his plea for mercy ring hollow on the jury, I think.

  • Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

    02/26/2008 11:47:12 AM PST · 244 of 351
    SpringheelJack to MHGinTN

    What does Galatians have to do with the 13th century story that Joseph of Arimathea went to Glastonbury.

  • Bill Slips While Stumping for Hillary ("If you elect me")

    02/26/2008 10:40:54 AM PST · 10 of 15
    SpringheelJack to cubreporter
    “Hillerree says: etc.” HE didn’t say elect HIM. He was quoting what hilllereee said.

    It's a weird clip. You're right, he does say that at the start, but then 30 seconds of wonkish whining about Bush intervenes, and by the time he says "If you elect me" I'd think most people would have forgotten that he's "quoting" Hillary. That's very badly arranged if it was a prepared speech.

    The girl in the back with the upside-down Hillary sign was cute though.

  • DRUDGE: S.O.S. ... NEW POLL SHOWS HRC FADE IN OH

    02/26/2008 10:22:20 AM PST · 179 of 208
    SpringheelJack to jdm

    I’ve given up being excited about these polls. They were dead on in ‘06, but this year the polls have been terrible at tracking trends, starting with Hillary’s impending “defeat” in New Hampshire. I’m guessing that ubiquitous cellphone usage is finally starting to warp the results.

  • 28-year-old man charged with cruelty to animals (Insulted police dog)

    02/26/2008 10:17:29 AM PST · 107 of 151
    SpringheelJack to tlb

    I doubt we’re being told the whole story.