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DALLAS: There is a hushed worry on the minds of many supporters of Senator Barack Obama, echoing in conversations from state to state, rally to rally: Will he be safe? In Colorado, two sisters pray daily for his safety. In New Mexico, a daughter persuaded her mother not to vote for Obama, just so he would lose and be spared harm. And at a rally here, a woman worried that a message of hope and change, in addition to his race, made him more vulnerable to violence.

Barack Obama criticised over 'cult-like' rallies By William Lowther in Washington Last Updated: 4:24pm GMT 23/02/2008 For many it is simply a sign of his charisma. But for a growing number of Barack Obama sceptics, there is something disturbing about the adulation with which the senator and Democratic presidential frontrunner is greeted as he campaigns for the White House - unnervingly akin to the hysteria of a cult, or the fervour of a religious revival. Thousands wait in line to see him wherever he stops. Members of the audience have taken to rushing the stage during campaign rallies, forcing the...

AT 4 BARACK OBAMA RALLIES... EACH IS A WOMAN... EACH WOMAN STANDS DEAD CENTER, RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE STAGE WHERE OBAMA IS STANDING AND SPEAKING... OBAMA SAYS "GIVE HER SPACE", REFERENCES EMT, AND HANDS THE WATER BOTTLE EACH TIME!...

WASHINGTON (AFP) - Senator John McCain fought for the backing of the Republican Party's conservative base in a fiery speech Thursday just after rival Mitt Romney quit the race, clearing his path to the White House. Addressing the annual gathering of fervent Republican activists, McCain sought to shore up his conservative credentials and allay fears over his stand on some key issues as he seeks the party's presidential nomination. "It is my sincere hope that even if you believe I have occasionally erred in my reasoning as a fellow conservative, you will still allow that I have, in many ways...

We stand up for those, Not here at the Wall; Their Valor etched in stone, We stand up today , for those who can’t hear us say, Welcome Home! Brother! Sister! Welcome Home! That's How we all Honor Those Brave Eagles gone, Who died on Foreign Shores,and By Honoring their Great Memory, for all the World to see,They shall Forever Soar! A Gathering…� poem by Darth AirBorne Every one here; I ask your forgiveness- In the effort of trying to get the pictures I have developed so far up as fast as possible for viewing, I am just posting...

RENNES, France - Tens of thousands of people filled the streets of five French cities Saturday to protest plans to build the next generation of nuclear reactors. The simultaneous protests organized by Get Out Of Nuclear, a collective made up of hundreds of associations, was intended to raise the prominence of the issue in the run-up to April-May presidential elections. Smaller-party candidates resolutely opposed to the construction of new facilities called European pressurized-water reactors joined the protesters. The nation must "get out of the nuclear business" and "invest in renewable energies like solar energy or wind power," said Olivier Besancenot...

From 1/27/07: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1774684/posts " Counter ANSWER march on the Pentagon on March 17th " --Posted on 01/27/2007 10:15:21 AM PST by Thunder90 and: From 1/31/07: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/search?m=all;o=time;s=March%2017th " RESOURCE LINK for March 17th: Counter ANSWER's march from the Wall to the Pentagon " Posted by Just A Nobody On News/Activism 01/31/2007 2:42:16 PM PST And: from 2/01/07 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/search?m=all;o=time;s=March%2017th Counter Protest March 17th, 2007 At the Wall Posted by 1stbn27 On News/Activism 02/01/2007 9:56:54 AM PST And Last THREAD:From 2/12/07 'Gathering of Eagles' Flyer PRINT IT! GET IT OUT THERE! Defend The Wall March 17th! Posted by Earthdweller On News/Activism 02/12/2007 2:06:37...

12/6/2006 - LUKE AIR FORCE BASE, Ariz. (AFPN) -- A Luke AFB pilot killed in action Nov. 27 in Iraq was remembered by Air Force leaders and friends as a warrior-patriot who made a difference in everything he did in a ceremony Dec. 6 here. Maj. Troy L. Gilbert's F-16 Fighting Falcon crashed while flying a combat mission in support of ground forces in Anbar Province, 20 miles northwest of Baghdad. Major Gilbert was deployed to Balad Air Base, Iraq, in September from the 309th Fighter Squadron at Luke AFB. "The 56th Fighter Wing extends its heartfelt condolences to the...

DES MOINES, Iowa - Former President Bill Clinton said Saturday that voters "know something is wrong" in Washington and urged Democrats to create change in the November elections. "I have never seen the American people so serious," said Clinton. "I think I know why. People know things are out of whack. The rhythm of our public life and our common life in America has been disturbed." The former president was the keynote speaker at the Jefferson-Jackson Day dinner, the Iowa Democratic Party's biggest annual fundraising event. He drew more than 3,500 activists. There is speculation that Clinton's wife, New York...

Immigrant supporters marched in several U.S. cities Monday to call for the right of illegal workers to live and work freely in the United States, drawing significantly fewer participants than massive demonstrations earlier this year. Participants waved American and Mexican flags at peaceful Labor Day rallies in California, Arizona and Texas, with crowds of a few hundred to several thousand chanting "Si se puede!" ("It can be done!") and "We are America." Marchers voiced the same message in demonstrations that attracted hundreds of thousands this spring. "Treat us as the labor force that moves the wealth in this country," Haydee...

Rights group moves ahead Pro-immigrant rallies planned They're already hard at work. Only a few weeks old, the National Alliance for Immigrant's Rights is coordinating large-scale, pro-immigration demonstrations throughout the United States next month. "In order to have an effective struggle for immigrant rights, there's got to be a national organization," said Julio Marroquin of the Laborers International Union, which has a district office in El Monte and is part of the National Alliance for Immigrant's Rights. Hundreds of immigration activists nationwide formed the coalition after an August conference in Chicago. The weekend convention consolidated the pro-immigration movement nationally and...

We need help at our weekly rallies in Los Angeles, especially on Friday night. Rallies last about 1 1/2 - 2 hours depending on when the leftist go home. Then we go out to eat. These are some of the longest on-going rallies in California, if not the nation. So come be a part of history, and take on the left! Friday 6pm Studio City SE corner of Ventura Blvd at Laurel Canyon Opposition is strong. Sunday afternoon Current start time: 6:00 (Time changes with the season) Woodland Hills SE corner of Victory at Topanga Canyon No opposition, just trying...

United States of America March and Rally in Hollywood Caif. This event is sponsored by The Minutemen Project, Ted Hayes' Crispus Attucks Brigade, Calif Coaltion for Immigration Reform, and the Federation for Immigration Reform. Saturday July 8, 2006 4:00 to 5:30 PM --Rally at corner of Hollywood & Argyle 6:00 to 8:00 PM --March from rally point to Hollywood and Orange and RETURN. Many guest speakers. For more information contact http://www.uscab.org We will meet at Argyle and Hollywood (this may change, but I will let everyone know) on Saturday, July 8th. Set-up will begin at 4pm. Rally/speeches will begin at...

Nationwide Rally to Stop Illegal Immigration on Saturday, July 1st, at noon, at every City HallOn May 1st - Million of Illegal Aliens Marched in our StreetsTwelve million illegal aliens demonstrated their political power, and declared May 1st to be A Day Without Undocumented Workers ( illegal aliens ). They boycotted the USA, all US businesses and institutions. Millions of them marched in our streets, carried Mexican flags, shouted "Si se puede!", and demanded new laws from our Congress. On July 1st - U.S. Citizens Nationwide Rally and BoycottRally to stop the invasion by millions of illegal aliens. 1-Day boycott...

MANCHESTER, N.H. - Republican Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), a White House hopeful in 2008, said Monday that the party has plenty of work to do to regain the backing of GOP voters frustrated by deficit spending, the Iraq war and illegal immigration. Five months before the midterm elections, McCain spoke about the outlook for the Republican Party amid concern within the Bush administration and the GOP leadership about losing majority control of Congress. "Spending is out of control and a significant part of our Republican base is angry because we have allowed this to happen," he said....

Muslims and Christians Hold Dueling Rallies at RCCApr 27, 2006 8:03 pm US/Pacific (CBS) RIVERSIDE Members of a Christian evangelical group and Muslim students engaged in a brief shouting match Thursday at an otherwise peaceful rally and counter-rally at Riverside Community College. Dr. Robert Morey is the organizer of a Christian evangelical group called Faith Defenders and teaches Islamic studies at the fledgling Irvine-based California Biblical University and Seminary. The university began taking admissions last September. Faith Defenders spreads Christian teachings and distributes literature and videos critical of Islam. Morey held a lecture and rally at the campus quad, which...

Apr 25, 7:36 PM EDT Ark. Hispanic groups plan rallies, not boycott, for May 1 By DANIEL CONNOLLY Associated Press Writer LITTLE ROCK (AP) -- Demonstrations in favor of giving illegal immigrants a chance at legal status are scheduled in De Queen, Little Rock and Springdale next Monday, three weeks after rallies in those cities attracted thousands of people. But some organizers in Arkansas say they won't support calls by national groups for immigrants to show their economic power Monday by not working or shopping. "We are not supporting or against that (boycott)," said Margarita Solorzano, one of the organizers...

From huge factories to small hotels, restaurants and supermarkets, many employers who support immigrants' rights plan to give employees Monday off so they can join the national rallies that day. "We think this is critically important," said Gilberto Villasenor, general manager of V & V Supremo Foods in Chicago's Pilsen neighborhood. He plans to give his more than 200 employees the day off with pay so they can attend the marches, speeches and rallies planned for Chicago. "We need to be heard," Villasenor said. His business, which makes cheese and other milk products, is dependent on the Hispanic market. Businesses...

In past commentary on the mass illegal alien protests around the country, we have wondered aloud where Immigration chieftess Julie L. Myers, head of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has been. We've also wondered aloud why ICE agents aren't converging on the mas protests to arrest the illegals. It would be like shooting fish in a barrell and very efficient. Now, we know the answer. We assumed that Julie Myers a/k/a "The ICE Princess" and other Homeland Security officials ordered agents to stay away from the protests and not arrest anyone. Yes, the same ICE Princess who pledged to Congress...

As U.S. senators scrambled to reach an accord this week on how best to handle illegal immigration, the call for action boomed over the radio airwaves day and night, stirring Spanish-speakers to further the cause of immigrants. While the volatile debate continues at the nation's Capitol, hundreds of thousands of people living in the country illegally, and their supporters, plan to march and hold rallies Monday across the nation calling for changes in immigration laws. Buoyed by radio, which has proved pivotal in mobilizing immigrants coast-to-coast, as many as 10,000 people are expected to gather on the South Side and...

I've been looking for some well-organized anti-illegal immigration from Georgia to DC so I could try to join in. But I don't see much activity. Also why doesn't Rush and/or Hannity tell us to meet on such and such a day. I'd travel across the country but there's no word. Radio hosts are organizing illegal alien protests, but conservatives seem to think it is bad form to do the same. I am truly baffled. It's now or never. KookooCachoo

Immigration legislation sends protesters to city streets Demonstrations held in Arizona, California, Georgia and Wisconsin PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- Thousands of people across the country protested Friday against legislation cracking down on illegal immigrants, with demonstrators in Phoenix, Los Angeles, California, and Atlanta, Georgia, staging school walkouts, marches and work stoppages.Congress is considering bills that would make it a felony to be illegally in the United States, impose new penalties on employers who hire illegal immigrants and erect fences along one-third of the U.S.-Mexican border. The proposals have angered many Hispanics.

Mathew and Heather Henderson have been through a lot. New friends in the Fort Huachuca community came through. (Submitted) Herald/ Review SIERRA VISTA — The Hendersons were nearly at the end of their trip that began two years ago at Fort Bragg, N.C., when they departed for the Defense Language Institute at the Presidio of Monterey, Calif. They had another training stop at Fort Huachuca, where Staff Sgt. Mathew Henderson would go through the human intelligence collector course before heading for his next duty station at Fort Hood, Texas. But last month most of their household goods were destroyed...

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Small groups of protesters rallied nationwide Saturday against illegal immigration and lax border security, demanding the government penalize employers who hire illegal workers. The so-called "Stop the Invasion" protests were organized in 19 states, but in several cities only a smattering of opponents of illegal immigration turned out. In Glendale, Calif., a Los Angeles suburb, about two dozen protesters waving American flags gathered outside a home-supply store, but they were surrounded and shouted down by more than 100 drum-beating supporters of immigrant rights who chanted, "Racists go home." The two groups traded shouts and obscene gestures...

Activists demanding urgent action on global warming plan to take to the streets Saturday across the United States and beyond, with hybrid car parades, parties and marches. The demonstrations are planned to coincide with a 10-day United Nations Climate Change Conference being held in Montreal. There, the Bush administration has been criticized for refusing to sign on to international agreements that cap industrial emissions. President Bush has called for an 18 percent reduction in the U.S. growth rate of greenhouse gases by 2012 and has committed $5 billion a year to science and technology to address global warming. "This is...

Few Attend Dueling Rallies at Bush Ranch Saturday November 26, 2005 10:31 PM By ANGELA K. BROWN Associated Press Writer CRAWFORD, Texas (AP) - A repeat of last summer's dueling rallies against the war and in support of President Bush drew much small crowds to Crawford on a cool, rainy Saturday. About a dozen Bush supporters stood downtown with signs, one reading: ``Real America won't wimp out.'' Throughout the morning, shoppers and a few tourists leaving souvenir stores stopped in the tent to voice their support for the president. Closer to the Bush ranch, where the president celebrated Thanksgiving with...

Part of an email I received yesterday from a USMC Master Gunnery Sergeant, serving in Iraq: I think you would be amazed at the morale of the young military people here. I know I am. I’ve been in for over 28 years and I have seen good and bad. These youngsters are getting the job done in a way I would never have imagined. They go on convoys, get shot at or have IEDs go off, then they return still in high spirits. The trick here is to convince the bad guys they have been beat. The idiots at the...

The World Can't Wait! Drive Out the Bush Regime! by worldcantwait.org Friday July 22, 2005 at 02:10 PM info@worldcantwait.org Mobilize for November 2, 2005 Your government, on the basis of outrageous lies, is waging a murderous and utterly illegitimate war in Iraq, with other countries in their sights. top2.gif, image/gif, 800x155 Read and spread the Call that started this movement: The World Can't Wait! Drive Out the Bush Regime! Mobilize for November 2, 2005 Your government, on the basis of outrageous lies, is waging a murderous and utterly illegitimate war in Iraq, with other countries in their sights. Your government...

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Thousands of Muslims marched Friday in Islamic countries from Asia to the Middle East, burning symbols of America to protest the alleged desecration of the Quran by military personnel at a U.S. prison in Guantanamo, Bay, Cuba. The rallies in Pakistan, Egypt, Lebanon, Indonesia, Malaysia and elsewhere followed an admission Thursday by U.S. investigators that Islam's holy book was mishandled at Guantanamo. But American officials claimed it was often inadvertent and denied that any Qurans were flushed down a toilet, as Newsweek magazine had reported in a now-retracted article. No injuries were reported in Friday's demonstrations, with...

London, Apr. 21 – At least 62 people have been killed and over 1,000 arrested in the week-long clashes between people and security forces in Iran’s southern Khuzestan province, according to the main Iranian opposition group, the People’s Mojahedin Organisation of Iran. Fierce fighting has brought the province to a complete stand-still since Friday, when State Security Forces (SSF) opened fire on a 3,000-strong anti-government demonstration in the city of Ahwaz. The residents who were mainly ethnic Arabs were complaining of government plans to redefine the ethnic make-up of the province. Ahwaz was placed under a de facto martial law...

BERLIN (AP) - Germany's government Friday proposed new laws to combat far-right demonstrations, timed to include a planned May march in Berlin on the 60th anniversary of the Nazi surrender in World War II. Also Friday, police sealed off part of downtown Munich for an annual security conference, bracing for thousands of anti-war protesters and an expected appearance by U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. The proposals for laws against the rightist gatherings came in response to a rising neo-Nazi threat and would target anyone who glorifies or plays down Nazi crimes, said Interior Minister Otto Schily, Germany's top law enforcement...

Okay after how many years here on FR, I still don't know if this falls under vanity so if it does please slap my wrist and fix it but please don't be mean and make me cry! Anyhow. . . The recent threads about the little girl that had the sign ripped from her hands got me thinking and wondering . . . (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1218271/posts) So I started researching a bit online, and found a myriad of other stories about the violence of the "liberal" crowd towards the "conservative" crowd (as well as the police, secret service, etc etc). Somewhere in...

Tickets scarce for president's swing through west, central Missouri President Bush arrives in Missouri this afternoon for a 24-hour campaign tour. And anyone who still needs a ticket for one of the president's rallies may be out of luck. Republican volunteers in several counties reported strong demand for tickets after the schedule was announced last week. The president's first appearance takes place late this afternoon in Poplar Bluff, where people began lining up for tickets before dawn last week. More than ten-thousand people had signed petitions inviting the president to the city. Bush flies to Kansas City tonight, then heads...

Freepers Unite! I am looking to organize a demonstration/protest outside the buildings of the Philadelphia Inquirer and Daily News in an effort to show the blatant liberal bias to those unaware of it. I am looking for people to show up with picket signs citing biased journalism charges against the Inquirer and Daily News for actively endorsing Kerry (Daily News) and also actively writing articles citing Bush lied about Iraq and Al-Qaeda connections and with the Uranium from Niger. Please help in my effort! You can contact Chris Tremo at 610-996-5600 or reply back to this. Thanks

MEDIA RELEASE: The GATHERING: More Speakers/Reservations Filling Reserve Now!Rick Stanley, Constitutional Activist, former U.S. Senate candidate, Enemy of the State, and self avowed extremist on the order of our forefathers of America, gave the following media release for your use: The Gathering will be held in Brighton and Denver, Colorado June 19 through June 25, 2004. The purpose of the Gathering is to bring attention to the unconstitutional/illegal actions of the government in their zeal to prosecute Rick Stanley, an American, for "exercising constitutional rights." DAY #1.) June 19: Saturday 11:00 AM to 4:00 PM at a park to be...

On a beautiful, breezy, sunshiny afternoon, with temperatures approaching 60, a small, but very vocal and determined group of about 25 showed up today at Milwaukee’s lakefront. Our mission: to counter the anti-American, anti-war, pro-socialist libs, a group whose makeup consisted in large part of the teacher’s union (large banner displayed “support increases in teacher pay”) and teenagers! Having had months to plan this event, I was surprised at the relatively small number (I’m guessing 150-200) in attendance at the Peace rally. Unfortunately, our numbers were held down because of hundreds of pro-troops, pro-Bush supporters that had previously committed to...

MILWAUKEE COUNTERDEMONSTRATION INFORMATION - COMMENTS AND SUGGESTIONS WELCOME! The Democrats will be meeting at noon at Wisconsin and Prospect (the orange girder sculpture). Our plan is to meet at Cathedral Square (location is well known and easy parking) and then march to the Peace and Justice Rally about 6 blocks away. I have not contacted the media, since we're unsure of the crowd size and don't plan on any guest speakers. Anyone who owns a megaphone is encouraged to bring it and everyone will be allowed to address the crowd, if so desired. Any comments or suggestions are welcome. My...

A few months ago, they were on different sides in the bitter recall campaign. But on Sunday, two days before another election, California's top Democrat, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, the state's top Republican, stood together in San Jose -- unified. This time, the two parties' leaders share the same concern. Both are urging voters to back a pair of measures -- a $15 billion bond to balance the state budget and a balanced-budget requirement -- they say are critical to the state's fiscal health. ``The main message of today is looking up here and understanding what you...

Hey anyone getting to this post, that lives in Northern Kentucky, and I don't mean Louisville. I mean, Covington, Florence, and Newport areas. We have two vans, and are heading down to Louisville this spring for the ~~~KY Freepers Meeting~~~ ~~~KY Freepers Meeting~~~ ~~~KY Freepers Meeting~~~ My old ford is a little bumpy, but for those who are sensitive, I've a newer ford also. We could fit about 6-7 extra people in our vans comfortably. If you want uncomfortable add two people. I'm asking for $2 per Freeper towards gas. And we don't allow any smoking in our vehicles. "My...

I'm in a debate on another forum. If I'm anticipating correctly, I need some on-line pictures from left-wing rallies in the U.S. where protesters had signs that equated the Star of David to the swastika or carried a mock Israeli flag with a swastika in place of the Star of David.

Bad, treasonous uglies are scheming to demoralize our brave US troops! Come to Outpost 122 on Saturday to join in with OSOT ralliers to hold down our bridge and defend the honor of our fine troops, as 3000 Reserves arrive at Ft. Lewis to train to defend our country and liberties.

DEA already using new powers to shut down fundraisers, protests, concerts and parties. A new law has been passed in America which is being used to stifle freedom of speech and shut down events which promote changes to the nation's drug laws. The legislation, crafted by Delaware Democrat Senator Joseph Biden, was originally introduced in 2001 as the RAVE Act (RAVE being a clever acronym standing for Reducing Americans' Vulnerability to Ecstasy). Free speech activists and civil libertarians originally managed to stop the bill from being passed, but Biden outmaneuvered his opponents. Biden renamed his bill the Illicit Drug Anti-Proliferation...

Clinton rallies round California's Davis By Hugh Davies (Filed: 07/08/2003) Bill Clinton has become a behind-the-scenes adviser to California's Democratic governor, Gray Davis. Mr Clinton is becoming a regular visitor to Los Angeles and is said to be "micro-managing" Mr Davis's fight to survive a recall election in October. The ex-president is seen as determined to use all his efforts to keep the Republicans from grabbing power in a state that is often crucial in influencing the outcome of presidential campaigns. His wife, Hillary, now a senator, is teeing herself up to run for election as America's first woman president...

This is Nikki!!! Some of you know that I am only 15 (just turned 15), but for 5 years now I have been doing everything that I can to support our Troops, our Veterans and our POW/MIA's and right now I am really worried about our troops. I am seriously thinking about organizing a Pennsylvania STATE WIDE "Support Our Troops Rally" because I really think that our troops need us now more than ever!! I want this to take place in several (or as many) cities as possible with the one here in the "Burgh" being at Point State Park!!...

In the early evening of the 27th of June 2003, Freepers gathered in Century City, near the Century Plaza Hotel, to express support for President Bush, his liberation of Iraq, and other issues. Freepers came out in force - at its peak, we had a few hundred people enthusiastically waving signs, banners and - most of all - American flags. Unfortunately, since I was coming from the Valley, I arrived late, around 5:30. Worse, I accidentally dropped my Canon XL1, which is currently recuperating in the video camera hospital. You can send it your cards and letters :-). By the...

Principal let Secret Service interrogate students, put up barbed wire, locked school gates "We are really pushing for the policy to be changed in the school district, and specifically for Mr. Mok to get fired. He’s (violated) a lot of people’s civil rights, and we want there to be recognition of the laws that he has broken," said Mary Jane, an 11th grader at Oakland High who helped to organize the June 6 rally outside of the gates of Oakland High. One of the students’ demands was to fire the principal of the school, who a few weeks ago was...

Rally for our troops Saturday, May 17th! NOON

Celebrate Armed Forces Day by attending the "Thank You Troops" Rally on May 17, 2003 at 12 noon. We will be at the Civic Center Plaza, again, in San Francisco. Thanks for all those who attended the March 29 "Support Our Troops Rally in San Francisco. We had a turn out of 1000-1200 people that day. Let's try to double it on the 17th!

Annual May Day rallies across Europe have mixed traditional labour union demands with anti-war protests, with violence marring the events in Germany, Turkey and several other countries. In the German capital, where at least 65 rallies were planned on a day that has seen violence for more than a decade, overnight trouble led to dozens of arrests. A policeman was seriously hurt and 97 protesters arrested as police used water cannon and tear gas to break up a crowd of around 200 young people. The youths pelted police them with fireworks and other projectiles on the fringes of a peace...

Hey all, i passed by an anti-America/anti-Bush rally at Copley Sq Boston today. I befreinded one of the guys so that he will give me some info of upcoming rallies. here is what i found... Wednesday 04/30/03 - Boston Common at State House (Beacon Hill) corner - 2:00-4:00pm; 4:00-5:00 State House Vigil Copley Sq 6:00-8:00pm Thursday May Day 05/01/03 - City Hall Plaza (gov't Center) beginning at 2:00pm Friday 05/02/03 - Boston Common noon-4:00pm Saturday 05/03/03 - Boston Common 12:30-2:30pm *the wednesday rally is not anti-war, it's pro taxes or "raise the revenue stop the cuts." it doesnt say whether...