Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

To: jack_napier
But where do we draw that line?

For purposes of this discussion, it's enough to recognize that there is a line that can be drawn.

When is a complaint and an attempt to prevent action reasonable, and when is it not?

Precisely where it gets drawn is, of course, the hard part, since the decision would most often be based on particular circumstances.

The problem with the libertarian approach is summed up in the typical libertarian retort, "if you don't like it, you can move."

The assumption underlying this is that no complaint is reasonable unless direct "coercion" (however defined) is involved. This leaves unanswered the question of what comprises "coercion," but from my discussions with libertarians at FR, it seems largely to be limited to instances or threats of physical harm.

But there are other forms of "harm" than merely physical ones. Any imposition of unwelcome costs is a form of coercion. A policy of "if you don't like it, you can move" is a de facto admission that an unwelcome cost is being imposed. The remaining question is whether the imposed cost is reasonable, or at least not overly burdensome, despite being unwelcome.

And so we come again to the question of individual vs. community interests. The question of whether or not a complaint is reasonable, ultimately boils down to a question of whether or not my actions impose unreasonable costs on others. Alternatively, the question might boil down to judging whether my actions, though they may impose costs on some, will confer greater benefits on others.

The point here, though, is that we're talking about my actions, which are voluntary on my part, and the costs I impose by taking such actions, and which are not necessarily voluntarily accepted by those on whom I impose them.

This brings us, finally, to my own primary reason for dismissing libertarians. Voluntary action cannot be separated from the idea of self-restraint, and here is where the libertarian position on things like drugs and prostitution is a useful marker.

Responsible people tend to moderate their activities out of respect for others. For example, I generally wouldn't fire up the old chainsaw at 0300, precisely because the neighbors are asleep and I don't want to bother them.

But suppose I cannot control myself, or I cater to those who cannot. Why is it up to my neighbors to "move if they don't like it?" Why should my lack of self-control be allowed to impose costs on others? The end effect of "move if your don't like it," is a society whose rules of conduct are defined by the most deviant among us.

Part of liberty is being able to define the conditions under which I live. The libertarian point of view refuses me the right to do so, unless I behave badly -- in which case others have no right to complain. That's not "liberty," it's insanity.

184 posted on 05/24/2007 10:06:19 AM PDT by r9etb
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 183 | View Replies ]


To: r9etb
"This leaves unanswered the question of what comprises "coercion," but from my discussions with libertarians at FR, it seems largely to be limited to instances or threats of physical harm.

Well, I would think that seems an unusually narrow characterization; coercion can take the form of verbal, financial, etc. But bear in mind that I am not defending the most extreme of libertarians.

But there are other forms of "harm" than merely physical ones. Any imposition of unwelcome costs is a form of coercion. A policy of "if you don't like it, you can move" is a de facto admission that an unwelcome cost is being imposed. The remaining question is whether the imposed cost is reasonable, or at least not overly burdensome, despite being unwelcome.

And this shoots to the major point a libertarian will raise to you; that any society naturally sees situations in which conflicts of interest arise, and that there will be a loser.

And so we come again to the question of individual vs. community interests. The question of whether or not a complaint is reasonable, ultimately boils down to a question of whether or not my actions impose unreasonable costs on others. Alternatively, the question might boil down to judging whether my actions, though they may impose costs on some, will confer greater benefits on others.

Who decides what is unreasonable? The government? This teeters greatly towards the Marxist idea of "The rich/priviledged will not miss what they have, because they have so much." Afterall, you talk about the benefit of the many over the benefit of the one; if a man has 10 million dollars, we can bring GREAT benefit by housing the homeless with 9 million of those dollars that we take.

This brings us, finally, to my own primary reason for dismissing libertarians. Voluntary action cannot be separated from the idea of self-restraint, and here is where the libertarian position on things like drugs and prostitution is a useful marker.
The problem comes with who decides how much restraint is enough? The prevailing will of the people? If the will of the people that prevails is more permissive than you desire, does that make it wrong? The essential problem here is not that the governing body should demand self-restraint at times; it is that it is a demand that is so dangerous that it should be limited to where it is absolutely necessary. Where there is an area of doubt or contention that relies on the judgement of human beings, I err on the other side.

Part of liberty is being able to define the conditions under which I live. The libertarian point of view refuses me the right to do so, unless I behave badly -- in which case others have no right to complain. That's not "liberty," it's insanity.
This is especially ironic to me, because you are justifying the right of the communal interest to dictate to an individual those very conditions.
185 posted on 05/24/2007 11:02:50 AM PDT by jack_napier
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 184 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson