Dropping the bomb

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/ ^ | Thursday, March 12, 2015 | Steve Hays

[Elsie]

And the land is STILL desolate and unlivable!!

https://www.google.com/search?q=hirosima+today&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADRA_enUS475&gws_rd=ssl

[Pelham]

Compare a picture of Hiroshima today with Detroit and you wonder which city was hit by the bomb.

[Verginius Rufus]

The battle of Okinawa ended in June.

My late father was wounded on Okinawa in May 1945 (Sixth Marine Division), but he would have been healthy again in time to take part in the invasion of Japan. He had no doubt that dropping the bombs was the right thing to do.

[Verginius Rufus]

The battle of Okinawa ended in June.

My late father was wounded on Okinawa in May 1945 (Sixth Marine Division), but he would have been healthy again in time to take part in the invasion of Japan. He had no doubt that dropping the bombs was the right thing to do.

[daniel1212]

The Tybee Island B-47 crash was an incident on February 5, 1958, in which the United States Air Force lost a 7,600-pound (3,400 kg) Mark 15 nuclear bomb in the waters off Tybee Island near Savannah, Georgia, United States. During a practice exercise, an F-86 fighter plane collided with the B-47 bomber carrying the bomb. To protect the aircrew from a possible detonation in the event of a crash, the bomb was jettisoned. Following several unsuccessful searches, the bomb was presumed lost somewhere in Wassaw Sound off the shores of Tybee Island.

A satirical "news" website "World News Daily Report" ran a story in February 2015 stating the bomb was found by vacationing Canadian divers and that the bomb had since been removed from the bay. The fake story spread widely by gullible readers via social media.

Kind of makes the absence of that Malaysian flight more believable.

To date, no undue levels of unnatural radioactive contamination have been detected in the regional Upper Floridan aquifer by the Georgia Department of Natural Resources (over and above the already high levels thought to be due to monazite, a locally occurring sand that is naturally radioactive).[11][12] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Tybee_Island_mid-air_collision

[kiryandil]

On the night of 9–10 March ("Operation Meetinghouse"), 334 B-29s took off to raid with 279 of them dropping 1,665 tons of bombs on Tokyo. The bombs were mostly the 500-pound (230 kg) E-46 cluster bomb which released 38 napalm-carrying M-69 incendiary bomblets at an altitude of 2,000–2,500 ft (610–760 m). The M-69s punched through thin roofing material or landed on the ground; in either case they ignited 3–5 seconds later, throwing out a jet of flaming napalm globs. A lesser number of M-47 incendiaries was also dropped: the M-47 was a 100-pound (45 kg) jelled-gasoline and white phosphorus bomb which ignited upon impact. In the first two hours of the raid, 226 of the attacking aircraft unloaded their bombs to overwhelm the city's fire defenses. The first B-29s to arrive dropped bombs in a large X pattern centered in Tokyo's densely populated working class district near the docks in both Koto and Chuo city wards on the water; later aircraft simply aimed near this flaming X. Fourteen B-29s were lost. The individual fires caused by the bombs joined to create a general conflagration, which would have been classified as a firestorm but for prevailing winds gusting at 17 to 28 mph (27 to 45 km/h). Approximately 15.8 square miles (4,090 ha) of the city was destroyed and some 100,000 people are estimated to have died.

This was in early March, 1945. More people were killed than at either Hiroshima [70,000–80,000 dead] or Nagasaki [22,000 to 75,000 dead] - but the Japanese refused to quit.

The single bombs got their minds right. The revisionists need to STIPH (Shut Their Ignorant Pie Holes).

[Elsie]

[daniel1212]

This was in early March, 1945. More people were killed than at either Hiroshima [70,000–80,000 dead] or Nagasaki [22,000 to 75,000 dead] - but the Japanese refused to quit.

Another worthy addition. This thread should be a reference for all future debates (not that there was one here) on the issue. In addition,

334 B-29s took off

The numbers alone are astounding. And on the night of May 30th, 1942 1,047 bombers took part in Operation Millennium that attacked Cologne, Germany. In addition to the bombers attacking Cologne, 113 other aircraft on "Intruder" raids harassed German night-fighter airfields - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Cologne_in_World_War_II

And that was just the RAF!

[nascarnation]

“...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.”

Eisenhower 1963

I could see him possibly making that statement in August ‘45 when he didn’t really understand the full scope of what happened in Asia. But by 1963 you’d think he would have figured it out.

[Pelham]

“Eisenhower 1963. I could see him possibly making that statement in August ‘45 when he didn’t really understand the full scope of what happened in Asia. But by 1963 you’d think he would have figured it out.”

The quote was merely reported in 1963, in Newsweek.

Eisenhower actually spoke those words in 1945 to Secretary of War Stimson:

https://tinyurl.com/pjqnsbz

[kiryandil]

Thnx for that info, P. :)

[Captain Peter Blood]

Read the book “Downfall” it only deals with the last few months of the Pacific campaign and the decision to drop the Bomb. Very well researched and a great read.

[schurmann]

“...The quote was merely reported in 1963, in Newsweek.

Eisenhower actually spoke those words in 1945 to Secretary of War Stimson:

https://tinyurl.com/pjqnsbz";

It’s only the middle of March. August - marking the 70th anniversary of the dropping of the Atomic Bombs - is four months in the future, and the revisionist anti-nuke, anti-British, anti-American flummery is already gaining momentum (it started last month, when UK’s BBC broadcast a veritable orgy of hysterical self-blaming, in honor of the 70th anniversary of RAF and USAAF air strikes against Dresden).

One cannot help but predict, we are in for some heavy lifting, if we are to re-establish historical verisimilitude.

Gen Eisenhower was not an aviator and had no experience leading the fight against Imperial Japan (to tell the truth, he had no experience at all: never went through one single minute of combat, never heard a shot fired in anger). But he wasn’t unique: several senior US military officers expressed a lack of conviction after the fact. Some were leaders of the country’s air forces (USAF did not yet exist). Not terribly startling: all had been born before 1900 and were products of the 19th century, a gentler time (despite the obtrusion of the Napoleonic Wars, and the American Civil War). Indubitably, a more moral time.

All were also politicians, to some degree. When it became clearer which way popular opinion was starting to drift, many quickly tried to surf the wave and boost their reputations, by speaking out about how they’d been against The Bombs “all along.” Crass? Possibly.

At least the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project, and later came out against nuclear weapons, had the moral courage to follow their own consciences, without wetting a finger to test the political winds.

Ike’s purported misgivings also cannot be divorced from the inter-Service rivalries of the day (yes, those clashes predated WWI, carried straight on through both World Wars without letup, and sharpened later). It’s less than pretty, but it’s a perennial pastime inside the US military establishment.

Essentially, ground forces and naval forces (who had practiced their rivalries for generations on end) were deeply offended by the conclusion of WWII: USAAF came out of nowhere - in terms of the doddering timeline, backward-gazing viewpoint, and self-satisfied lassitude that shaped American military corporate culture before 1939 - and had the temerity to win the war before this cohort of tradition-bound, ambition-driven GOFOs could carve out a place for themselves in the earth-shattering events of the day, and one-up each other while doing so. Lost chances at military glory wound senior officers deeply, right in the old ego. It’s easier to endure physical wounds sustained in actual battle.

Captain Peter Blood recommended _Downfall_ by Richard B. Frank, and deserves thanks from the entire forum. One hopes more actually read it, and obtain a better grasp on events at the end of the Second World War.

[Pelham]

The USAAF didn’t play a role in the decision to use the atomic bomb and they really didn’t have a clear understanding of what it would do. Hap Arnold mentions his own surprise that it inspired Japan to surrender.

The decision to drop the bomb was made by Stimson, Marshall, Groves, a few Manhattan Project people, and of course Truman. It wouldn’t necessarily be more destructive than massed conventional bombing but they knew it would inflict an enormous psychological shock. Oppenheimer pointed out that the visual effect of a 20,000 foot mushroom cloud would be tremendous. They guessed right.

[TomasUSMC]

Dropping the bomb saved many more Japanese lives than American lives. And.....saved them from Soviet occupation. Hell the Japanese should send a big thank you note every year.

[TomasUSMC]

The bomb stopped the war but did not keep the peace.

GETTING RID OF THE JAPANESE WARLIKE INSANE SUPIERIORITY COMPLEX BY SHOVING AN AMERICAN MADE CONSTITUION DOWN THEIR THROATS ....IS WHAT DID.

That why we failed in Iraq and Afghanistan. We let them include in their Constitutions articles like...NO LAW SHALL CONTRADICT ISLAM.

[The Westerner]

My dad was preparing to ship from the European theatre to finish up the war in Japan. They knew at the time American soldiers would die en masse! Thank God for the timing of the bombs, for it enabled my father to go back home to my mother, start a family in peace, simple ordinary peace. What lucky children we baby boomers were to have parents who enjoyed a home, 2 cars, 3 kids, unlocked front doors, low taxation and regulation. No Big Brother, A sense that with hard word, families could accumulate wealth, build a savings for the future. It was idyllic for awhile.

[daniel1212]

That why we failed in Iraq and Afghanistan. We let them include in their Constitutions articles like...NO LAW SHALL CONTRADICT ISLAM.

For while the liberals work to negate it, the Constitution, understood in the light of the Founders overall, reflects general religious Christian principals and beliefs, one of which is the separation of church and state.

Which disallows a formal state religion, but not religious acknowledgment of the general faith of the founders and the people, which was not Islam. And the state depended on religion to bring souls to be controlled from within so that they need not be controlled from without. Thus enabling smaller gov. And fostering wisdom in electing leaders who reflect their values.

But having been blessed by God, the people increasingly made the blessings their ultimate object of affection and source of security, and believed prevaricating pols leaders who promised more of such on the expense of others. Thus leaders yet reflect the general real faith of the people, but not that which was behind the Constitution.

Washington's Farewell Address, 1797 — Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. . . . And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. (Farewell Address, 1797; http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp)

John Adams (1735—July 4, 1826. Second President and one of the Founding Fathers. Assisted Thomas Jefferson in drafting the Declaration of Independence): Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty. They will only exchange Tyrants and Tyrannies." (Letter to Zabdiel Adams, June 21, 1776; http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field%28DOCID+@lit%28dg004210%29%29

[T]he Christian religion… is the basis, or rather the source, of all genuine freedom in government… I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of Christianity have not a controlling influence. (K. Alan Snyder, Defining Noah Webster: Mind and Morals in the Early Republic (New York: University Press of America, 1990), p. 253, to James Madison on October 16, 1829)

Justice Joseph Story, Supreme Court Justice from 1811 to 1845 stated (emphasis mine), “One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundations.” (Joseph Story, Life and Letters of Joseph Story, William W. Story, editor, Vol. II, p. 8, 1851)

§ 1865. Indeed, the right of a society or government to interfere [be involved] in matters of religion will hardly be contested by any persons, who believe that piety, religion, and morality are intimately connected with the well being of the state, and indispensable to the administration of civil justice. The promulgation of the great doctrines of religion, the being, and attributes, and providence of one Almighty God; the responsibility to him for all our actions, founded upon moral freedom and accountability; a future state of rewards and punishments; the cultivation of all the personal, social, and benevolent virtues;--these never can be a matter of indifference in any well ordered community. It is, indeed, difficult to conceive, how any civilized society can well exist without them... This is a point wholly distinct from that of the right of private judgment in matters of religion, and of the freedom of public worship according to the dictates of one's conscience.

More .