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5 things you (probably) didn’t know about Henry VIII
History Extra ^ | January 25, 2018

Posted on 01/28/2018 9:43:51 AM PST by beaversmom

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To: independentmind

See Titulus Regius.


41 posted on 01/28/2018 11:14:02 AM PST by independentmind (Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me.)
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To: null and void

Except these days they can’t wait to surrender to the caliphate.

><

That’s an excellent point. They will find out that their new masters won’t be benevolent. I feel sorry for the children.


42 posted on 01/28/2018 11:22:26 AM PST by laplata (Liberals/Progressives have diseased minIt seems to me that theds.)
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To: Professional

The Tudors was excellent and very interesting. It made my trips to England much more meaningful; especially the Tower when you see the location where Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard got the boot!


43 posted on 01/28/2018 11:22:53 AM PST by lone star annie
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To: Professional
Watching The Tudors now. It is pretty good. At least they tried to give the French more proper accents. The girl that plays Anne Boleyn (Queen Margaery Tyrell in G.O.T.) when I first saw her, I kinda liked that quirky little smile. Now.... ugh, please stop.

Just finished Reign, which probably should have been titled Mary Queen of Scots 90210. Talk about teen dramas... And Mary sure did cry a lot... But it seems they ran out of time and barely touched on Mary Stuart's marriage to Henry Stuart (Lord Darnley) and totally skipped her third marriage to James Hepburn (Earl of Bothwell) and jumped ahead to 20 years later with Mary in England heading to the executioner. Though I did like the actors who play Henry II, Catherine De Medici and Stephane Narcisse.

44 posted on 01/28/2018 11:23:52 AM PST by Hatteras
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To: independentmind

Yes, they destroyed Titulus Regius. Luckily, one showed up a couple of centuries later and it laid out the reasons why they passed over the young Edward.

He was badly maligned. In his short time on the throne, he was a good king. Especially for the commoners.


45 posted on 01/28/2018 11:23:56 AM PST by miss marmelstein
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To: mass55th
Her target was priests and Catholic worshippers.

Considering they were allying with Spain to take her throne and have her killed should she have served them tea and cookies?

46 posted on 01/28/2018 11:26:25 AM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Not a Romantic, not a hero worshiper and stop trying to tug my heartstrings. It tickles! (pink bow))
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To: laplata
Me too, but the vast majority of people need a strong leader, few are cut out to be one, fewer still, far fewer still, are cut out to be a good and strong leader.

Sometimes it just sucks to be a human.

47 posted on 01/28/2018 11:33:02 AM PST by null and void (The Martians fought global warming, all the plants died and the surface water froze solid...)
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To: Hatteras

Tudors is solid all the way to the very end.


48 posted on 01/28/2018 11:33:07 AM PST by Professional
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To: miss marmelstein
Edward never married the other woman. They had allegedly been betrothed, but the marriage never took place. She married someone else, and it is claimed she never felt the betrothal was binding. He was known as a womanizer, with promises to marry other women, but he was actually married by a priest to Elizabeth Woodville.

Who had the most to gain by the death of Edward's sons? Who had the means to get rid of them? The majority of the people alive at the time believed that he murdered his nephews. He was not a popular King. I've never heard of Von Poppelau's claim in any of the books I've read. The boys were never seen again outside the Tower of London. There were pretenders but the truth of their backgrounds were discovered. The Royal Family will not allow DNA testing of the bones that were found beneath a Tower staircase in 1674. Maybe some day that will be allowed to occur.

Prior to his petitioning his Titulus Regius to Parliament...justifying his right to rule as King, Richard had eliminated many of the individuals who had opposed his claim to the throne, which left many absences in Parliament. Nothing sends the message of "support me or else," more than executing the Lords who refused to support your claim. One of his biggest supporters, the Duke of Buckingham had turned on him. He was hunted down and executed. Richard also confiscated monies, titles and estates from those Lords who had opposed him. He stripped Elizabeth Woodville of all the land given her by Edward IV, and then he rewarded his supporters. Once he got what he wanted from Parliament, he dissolved it. His only Parliament opened at Westminster on 23 January 1484 and sat for less than a month before being dissolved. Once Henry Tudor became King, Richard's Titulus Regius was overturned by Parliament.

There are plenty of theories on both sides regarding what happened to the Princes. I choose to believe, based on evidence presented in many of the books I've read, that he murdered his nephews. He had the motive, and the means. There is no proof that he didn't have them killed. It's been suggested that one of the reasons the Duke of Buckingham turned on Richard III was because of his plans to have the Princes murdered. Of course that's speculation, just like a so-called German diplomat's claims the boys were still alive in 1485. Having worked for 25 years in law enforcement, I'm more prone to believe that Richard of Gloucester was a low-down, murdering scoundrel.

If anyone, besides Edward V, and Richard, Duke of York had claim to the throne, it was Edward Plantagenet, George, the Duke of Clarence's son. George had managed to tick off his brothers by supporting the Earl of Warwick (his father-in-law) in rebelling against Edward IV. He was condemned, and put to death by his brother, the King. A Bill of Attainder against his succession was introduced by Edward IV to Parliament, which Richard, Duke of Gloucester could have petitioned Parliament to be reversed, but he never did. He wanted the crown for himself.

49 posted on 01/28/2018 11:38:48 AM PST by mass55th (Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway...John Wayne)
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To: lone star annie
"...especially the Tower when you see the location where Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard got the boot!"

Went there twice. It's been suggested that the spot noted as the actual site of Anne's execution, may have actually been at another spot on the Tower grounds. I've heard this in a few British documentaries I've watched, and found some info here:

Anne Boleyn's Execution Site

50 posted on 01/28/2018 11:46:32 AM PST by mass55th (Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway...John Wayne)
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To: Professional

I presume you are talking about The Tudors that first appeared on Showtime and had Jonathan Rhys Meyers playing Henry VIII?

I tried to watch it and while I could see it as perhaps being entertaining, I couldn’t get past all the glaring historical inaccuracies, the bad casting, poor dialogue, costuming not being of the correct period, ….

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-489336/Henry-VIII-The-glaring-errors-BBCs-sexed-dumbed-Tudors.html


51 posted on 01/28/2018 11:48:45 AM PST by MD Expat in PA
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To: kalee

for later


52 posted on 01/28/2018 11:50:25 AM PST by kalee
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To: Huebolt
One of the very few things the French have done correctly was to EXECUTE all royalty, root and stem.

Nobility is the equivalent of organized crime.

Like a dog returning to its vomit, America keeps flirting with royalty...


53 posted on 01/28/2018 11:58:15 AM PST by COBOL2Java (Arguing with the left is like trying to reason with a crazy bum hearing voices)
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To: Harmless Teddy Bear
"Considering they were allying with Spain to take her throne and have her killed should she have served them tea and cookies?"

Of course not. She wanted to keep her throne, and did what she had to do to remain on it. I don't think there was ever a time when she didn't feel threatened. In a way, as she got older, she became just as paranoid as her father. But in her case, it was probably justified.

As much as I've read on the Tudors and British History in general, I'm still baffled by the fact that the people didn't rebel when Henry broke from Rome, and established himself as the Head of the Church in England. All the upheaval, and destruction of the monasteries, just so he could get rid of his Catholic wife, and marry another woman. Makes me wonder what history would have been like if he hadn't indulged his own selfish wants, and stayed married to Catherine of Aragon.

In the present day, the people of England have once again, simply sat back, and watched another religion take over their country.

54 posted on 01/28/2018 11:58:35 AM PST by mass55th (Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway...John Wayne)
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To: Huebolt
One of the very few things the French have done correctly was to EXECUTE all royalty, root and stem.

The Bourbons have available a potential Louis XX in the Duke of Anjou



The Orleans faction the Count of Paris



And for Bonapartists a choice of Jean-Christope, Prince Napoleon




or
the Duke of Castel Duino, Carlo Alessandro,

or

Charles, Prince Napoleon

Then, of course, the British Jacobite claimant (the current ruling family of Britain having given up their claim a couple of hundred years ago

Franz, Duke of Bavaria (f/k/a Prince of Bavaria)



(all photos from Wikipedia)

55 posted on 01/28/2018 11:59:27 AM PST by PAR35
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To: mass55th

Henry also looted all of the monasteries and rewarded those who pledged allegiance to him with the lucre.

Perhaps that is why the nobility didn’t revolt.


56 posted on 01/28/2018 12:10:49 PM PST by independentmind (Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me.)
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To: mass55th

Edward, indeed, married Eleanor Talbot. Robert Stillington was a witness to it. Here is Paul Murray Kendall on the subject: “In the eyes of the Church, the essence of marriage was consent, a mutual interchange of personal vows; therefore, betrothal had the force of a legal tie and the sanction of sacred obligation.” Henry 8 used Anne Boleyn’s supposed betrothal to the Earl of Northumberland to get rid of her. We cannot view betrothal in a modern way. It was legally binding and used to put aside a child king who would have been a disaster given his villainous mother and her villainous and rapacious family.

Nicholas Von Poppolau was a diplomat, not a “so-called” diplomat. His account of staying with Richard 3 several months before Bosworth Field is one of the few real glimpses we have of this maligned king. He reports that the boys were alive. Von Poppolau turns up in every decent history book written about R3. There is now a tantilizing hint put forward by my friend, Stephen Lark, that the children were seen at Gipping Hall in Suffolk. That was the ancestral home of the much-maligned and lied-about Sir James Tyrell. It’s been suggested that this is where they were sent before slipping into the continent. (This is still speculation.)

I’m not going to bandy words and try to prove a negative - even with a law enforcement professional. Believe what you want to believe about the disappearance of those children. But I wouldn’t take the remains in the urns at Westminster Abbey too seriously. From their brief examination we are not even sure if they were male or female or from what era they were from. And one had a serious jaw disease. Neither of the princes was reported to have that. Elizabeth 2 will not allow the urn to be reopened - perhaps Charles will. I think it will be akin to Al Capone’s vault.


57 posted on 01/28/2018 12:20:33 PM PST by miss marmelstein
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To: null and void

Sometimes it just sucks to be a human.

><

That’s true. But it helps a lot not to be stupid like those who get taken in by their lack of discernment. That some people accept Islam for something it is not (religion of peace) and cannot see one thing wrong with people like Obama or Hillary, is truly sickening.


58 posted on 01/28/2018 12:25:24 PM PST by laplata (Liberals/Progressives have diseased minIt seems to me that theds.)
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To: mass55th
Part of it was that the Roman Catholic Church had more then once stepped in it when it came to the British Isles.

In this case people knew the back ground of the marriage which was as follows.

Katherine of Aragon was his older brother's widow. That means by Church law he could not marry her as she was his sister. Which was fine by him as he had no wish to marry a woman that was six years his senior. What 11 year old boy would?

But he was forced into the marriage with the Pope granting a dispensation (because the marriage was against Church law) and Katherine swearing that she was still a virgin because horny 16 year old boys are well known for not touching their wives.

When Henry turned 14 he legally renounced the marriage.

Katherine's dad then named her as ambassador to England so she could have a reason to stay there and get her hooks into Henry.

Finally four years later after his father extracted a death bed promise from Henry he married Katherine. This now makes the marriage three time a violation of Catholic Church law.

He did not enter the marriage of his free will, they were within four degrees of consanguinity by blood and it was incest by marriage .

After seven pregnant that resulted in only a living female heir Henry had finally had enough. He decided that him marriage was not fruitful because God was punishing him for his unlawful marriage. He then asked the Pope for an annulment.

He was well within the bounds of church law to ask for this but Spain wanted England and with their plan to marry Mary to her cousin, Philip of Spain (also a violation of Church law but what was one more?) it was in reach. The Pope was inclined to let that happen. England had long been a thorn in the Roman Catholic Church's side while Spain was far more likely to jump when the Pope said "Frog."

So the Pope told Henry no.

This left Henry feeling betrayed. He was a good son of the Church, so much so that he had been given the title of "Defender of the Faith" by the pope for his argument against Martin Luther.

He was living in sin and the Pope was telling him that he could not get out of it.

The legitimacy of Mary could even be called into question meaning that he might not only did not have a legitimate male heir, he might not even have a legitimate female one.

England had just gone though a century of war because of kings not having properly born heirs. It was not going to happen again.

You have to wonder how history would have changed if the Pope had followed his own Church laws and granted the annulment.

Henry would have likely married a proper Catholic princess and kept Ann as his mistress.

59 posted on 01/28/2018 12:44:04 PM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Not a Romantic, not a hero worshiper and stop trying to tug my heartstrings. It tickles! (pink bow))
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To: jimtorr

“At least Liz the First wasn’t paranoid. The Catholics really were out to get her.”

Interesting theory. My view. Elizabeth’s rule of 50+ years and punishment of Catholics was not justified self-defense.

Henry VIII? Loser who started a religion like Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard. He delayed the progress of metallurgy, beer making and global marketing. Notice how the industrial revolution in England started in 1850 with textiles, not 1650.


60 posted on 01/28/2018 1:19:32 PM PST by Falconspeed ("Keep your fears to yourself, but share your courage with others." Robert Louis Stevenson (1850-94))
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