Ultra-Orthodox Jewish passengers cause uproar on flight from New York to Israel because they [tr]

These stories about the Ultra Orthodox getting upset because a travel situation might cause breaking of Sabbath rules pops up now and then. Usually it involves a man refusing to sit next to a woman who is not his spouse or other family member.

If you have these concerns, don’t fly. Problem solved.

They MUST understand that God wouldn’t hold it against them if it was out of their power.

I respect their adherence to their beliefs. It’s refreshing in this day and age.

But not sitting next to a woman because she is not your spouse, if it can be accommodated, great.

If not, it’s pushing the envelope on religious freedom because it may be affecting someone else’s right to sit on a plane :)

The key here is having been assured by crew of arriving on time. That puts the onus on the airline, rather than the passenger.

A verbal contract; not guaranteed, but a source of consternation.

An aircraft is a machine, not an animal..........

Now, what words are used to re-calculate the start (and stop) of the period as the passengers cross multiple time zones?

Is it not a greater wrong to force the flight to abort, than to cross a time zone as the zone as the sun sets

These rules do not come from the Torah or the Talmud.

They come from the centuries of the Rabbis discussing, analyzing and debating the Torah and Talmud, from the time of the Jews were carried off to Babylon all the way up to the present day. However, like all Rabbinic discussions, they are not all in agreement, with the Orthodox following what they consider to be the “stricter” interpretations.

In simple terms, some things are prohibited because they represent a modern form of “fire” and the scriptures said “Do not light a fire in your dwelling in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath” (Exodus 35:3). Now then, while the Orthodox claim electricity is a modern form of fire, they make very “flexible” rules about electricity, which simply require that no adjustment (turning it on or off) be made. Thus your heater may be on, but you can’t adjust it, you have to leave it as is from start to end of the Sabbath.

Quite a number of things are prohibited because they constitute “travel”, which is prohibited on the Sabbath. Yet, in the strictist sense you can easily travel with your feet. So technically, by orthodox rules, you could walk fifty miles, but could not use any kind of vehicle, not even a bike on the sabbath.

Yes, I know, it seems rather silly to most of us.

You’d think that the most strict form of a commandment to not light a fire in your dwelling on the Sabbath would mean that you could not even have a fire in your dwelling on the Sabbath. And if electricty was “fire” then you could not even have the elctricity on. But the modern Orthodox Jews have found modern ways of stretching and shrinking the latitude of their own rules, rather conveniently it seems.

This is a case of religion overriding rationality. If something beyond one’s control makes it impossible to follow a rule of the religion, then anybody with a mind knows that there is no personal responsibility for the outcome.

There is some rationality...

For instance, Israeli firefighters work on the Sabbath. Don’t know if they are “at work” on the Sabbath, but they do fight actual fires on the Sabbath.

The IDF can not take part in Sabbath during hot wars.

“Do not light a fire in your dwelling in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath” (Exodus 35:3).

According to family lore, my grandfather’s 12 year old brother made money lighting fires for Orthodox Jews on the sabbath. He died when his clothing caught on fire while lighting on of those fires.

An aircraft is a machine, not an animal..........

A furnace is a machine too but they have heat on the Sabbath and holy days, right? They aren't doing the work personally but the machine isn't shut off is it? If that's the case then I don't see why being in an airplane would be that much different.

Thanks, I just asked in a similar post about the use of heat on the Sabbath and see you addressed it already. The travel thing is the one that is relevant I guess, and I didn’t know about that one.

Preserving life takes precedence.

If you have these concerns, leave the Earth. Its after dark over half of it all the time.Problem solved.

Then they should have flown a day earlier.

Been waiting for this to hit FR... Jeez Louise-- Are none of you on any Orthodox Jewish chat or WhatsApp groups? This went viral among Jews minutes after the initial Fake News headlines about rowdy, violent religious Jews causing Orthodox mayhem in G-d's name.... Yes some ask to change seats, etc, and some are jerks about it-- bad on them as individuals. Wuli, not flying on the Sabbath is the accepted Orthodox interpretation of the Torah, based on the methods or exegesis prescribed in the Talmud-- stock-and-trade Judaism 101. They should not take off if they will be flying on the Sabbath-- and are careful not to do so. That being said--- I present to y'all the Rest of the Story:

EL-AL SPONSORED SHABBOS OF UNITY

This Shabbos I had the tremendous privilege to be a part of something amazing, beautiful and enlightening. I am hoping El Al will see this and understand that there is a much better headline than the false headline “Haredim Riot On Plane” which I currently see online.
Here is the short of it. Our El Al flight was supposed to leave at 6:30pm. 3 members of the crew were late and we started boarding at 8:30pm during which the crew members arrived. At 9:10pm the flight doors were closed and everything was calm for about an hour.
At around 10pm many of the passengers who were concerned about Shabbos starting asking the crew members for detail about departure and no answers were given other than we are leaving in 5 minutes. Keep in mind, that at 10:25pm sitting on a JFK runway, El-AL’s website showed our flight as enroute having departed at 9:30PM.
I was sitting in business class, my seat was directly next to the stairs going to second floor, and 3 rows behind the first class food prep galley. I heard every exchange. At no time was there any physical threat presented by passengers concerned about Shabbos. I am loathe to use the term Chareidim, this was not some Neturei Karta protest full of black clad chasidim spewing nonsense. These were Jews from all walks of life and varied backgrounds who were concerned about Shabbos.
At 11:35pm there were about 40 passengers, myself included, who stood by the exit door and expressed our wishes to disembark from the plane. By this time we were sitting on the tarmac for two and half hours. One of the stewardesses told us that if they take us back to the gate and we get off the plane we would lose our tickets and not be rebooked. I am not sure if she was trying to shock us into sitting or if this was the real policy, but our response was unanimous;. every single person said that’s fine, we are ok with that, just take us back to the gate so we don’t violate Shabbos. Not one person said, “What?? No,you have to rebook us”, or, “you can’t do that”, there was a simple, basic understanding, we had Shabbos.
At one point, someone whom I later found out to be Rabbi Shalom Ber Sorotzkin got on the intercom and said that he spoke to the pilot, and that the pilot guaranteed we would get to the airport before Shabbos, and that he (Rabbi Sorotzkin) arranged for everyone to have a place and a meal for Shabbos if they did not have time get to where they needed since we would arrive only one hour before Shabbos.

Many of us, myself included did not sit down and expressed our desire to go back the gate.
At that point the captain came onto the intercom. He told us we were going to go back to the gate as soon as everyone was seated. And we all went back to our seats.
I can’t begin to describe the sinking feeling in my stomach as I saw the plane turn away from the terminals and face the runway. In less than 6 minutes after telling us to return to our seats to go back to the gate, we were in the air. FY I- there was no Wifi on the flight which meant our only source of information for the rest of the flight was the El-Al crew.
Four hours into the flight the Captain announced that because of the “Cheiredim” the plane would stop in Athens. At which point, all the people who want to get off for Shabbos can get off the plane first, and then, (and here is the kicker), all the people who want to continue to Israel will also have to get off the plane and go on a different plane from IsraAir to go to Israel.
What a shame… I wish El Al had announced the truth. We were stopping in Athens because El-Al made a series of bad calls, and once they landed they could not depart on Shabbos which is why they needed an non El-Al plane to continue to Israel on Shabbos.
This only caused the internal tension to rise and as our only source of information was the crew, who were less than helpful and not at all sympathetic . To be very clear, no one was angry at the stewardesses, everyone understood that they did not make the decisions. We were requesting to speak to the pilot or someone who can speak for the pilot. Again, there was no attempts to break into the cockpit, there were no physical altercations. Yes, there were some raised voices, but most of the time (I have the videos showing) it was secular Israeli passengers who came to yell at the passengers who were concerned about Shabbos that we were ruining their weekend.

This in itself was absurd because we did not make the decision to stop in Athens and the majority of the religious passengers preferred that we continue to Israel and be stuck in the Tel Aviv airport.
As the minutes crept closer to our arrival into Athens there were discussions on the plane about whether it was halachically better to stay on the plane or to disembark in Athens.   We had no clue what to expect. Would we stay in the airport? Was there a hotel? What would we eat?
When they served breakfast I realized that the packaged egg which they served for breakfast and the half a sandwich I had left from when I boarded the plane could very well be all we had to eat on Shabbos. I even put some nuts into my backpack for Shalosh Seudos.
When it was clear that we were landing in Athens and we would begin our descent we returned to our seats. Many of us tried to separate our Muktza items and to make sure our Tallis and Siddur were easily accessible.
After the plane landed and we stopped we disembarked on one of those rollaway staircases to get onto one of several shuttles. I was one of the first people onto the shuttle and I watched as dozens of more Yidden came off the plane with no other thought than, to stay on the plane would be chillul Shabbos, and getting off the plane was the best chance of keeping Shabbos.   Chasidim got off the plane, men with black hats, colored shirts, in t-shirts, in suits, women with sheitels, snoods, no sheitels, in skirts, in pants; everyone coming off the plane was united in one thing – We believe in Hashem, and his Torah, and Shabbos was our gift and our inheritance and we would keep it.
As the first shuttle was full and started towards the airport (there were more shuttles behind us) everyone broke into a song for Shabbos Kodesh.
Once we got to the airport we were met by a women from El Al who was very sweet and took the time to explain to us that we were would be staying across the street (literally) at a hotel and they would take us as soon as the other shuttles arrive.
As they led us into the hotel it was very chaotic. There were four hotel clerks and people started surging towards the front desk. At that point, one Rabbi, whom I later learned was Rabbi Akiva Katz yelled above the crowd and explained to everyone that we would need to create orderly lines in order not to overwhelm the clerks. He also let us know that they had set aside a place for davening and that Chabad had prepared food. This helped reduce the stress in the room and the process became more orderly as people were focused on getting to their rooms and ready for Shabbos in the 40 minutes we had left to Shkia.
Walking into Kabbalas Shabbos (I was late) was beautiful. The room was full of 60 or 70 men and about 10 women and everyone was singing. Rabbi Jesse Horn from Yeshiva Ateres Kohanim led Kabbalas Shabbos. We were all so happy to be able to keep Shabbos, and the davening and level of simcha was very high. I think we must have danced four or five times during Kabbalas Shabbos and Maariv.
After Kabbalas Shabbos we walked through the hotel to the dining area and I can tell you with 100% conviction that what I saw was beyond anything I could have imagined.
85% of the dining area was reserved for our Shabbos meal. The tables were set beautifully with bottles of wine, grape juice and challah rolls.   Where the hotel usually displayed it’s salad bars, and assortment of cold meats it was now filled with platters of gefilte fish, 6 or 7 large bowls with a variety of salads and dips, it was as if this had planned for weeks in advance. There was plenty of fleish for the main course and an assortment of side dishes to accompany it.
The Seudah was beautiful and everyone sang zemiros and niggunim and there were many Divrei Torah. Several people had stopped at the Duty free store to get bourbon and scotch for the Oilam, and it was very leibdige and the singing went on for quite a while
I woke up several times during the night as I was still on NY time and every time I went downstairs to the lobby there were people learning together or talking about the Parsha.
Shacharis was another beautiful davening and it was interesting to see how it was a mix of Nusach Sefard, Sefardi, Ashkenaz.
After davening several people went to the kitchen to help Rabbi and Rebbetzin Hendel (the Chabad Shluchim in Athens) prepare for seuda.
There were also two shiurim being given, one in Hebrew, and one in English by Rabbi Yossi Baumol.
After the Shiurim we went to the dining room where like the previous night there were copious amounts of delicious food, a wonderful meat kugel wrapped in pastry, brisket, a large assortment of salads. Unlike the previous night, where everyone sat next to people who were closest to them hashkafically, the seating during the Shabbos day Seuda was heterogeneous. Chasidim sat and schmoozed with Tzionim, Modox sat with black hats… I only use these labels so you can visualize the seating, but there were no labels at this Seuda, we sat in true achdus.
The rest of Shabbos and the subsequent trip back to the airport and our return flight to Israel was unremarkable in that I don’t need to bore you with the details.
First I would like to thank the following people.
Rabbi Shalom Ber Sorotzkin who had the foresight before the plane took off to have his organization contact El-Al and Chabad and put pressure on to make this Shabbos happen.
Rabbi and Rebbetzin Hendel, the Chabad Rabbi and Rebbetzin based in Athens, Greece. They got the call at 11am Friday morning and by 4pm that same afternoon they had prepared a beautiful Shabbos for 150+ adults which was not lacing in anyway.
My 150+ new friends and passengers who gave me an experience and Shabbos I will never forget.
Now a quick note to to El-AL. Hi El-Al, I don’t know who handles your marketing and social media program but you wasted a huge opportunity. Next time this happens, here is what you do. You make sure you get the same hotel and that Chabad sets up a beautiful Shabbos. You hire a Greek photographer and video guy, you video the amazing Shabbos – and then you promote it as an El-Al sponsored Shabbos Unity.   If you need more advice feel free to call or email me, or just send me some tickets as a thank you.
I would like to leave off with a few thoughts having just spent one of the most amazing Shabbos of my life.
1.     150+ Jews from all backgrounds and hashkafic orientations, wearing every outfit possible walked off a plane with one thought – We will keep Shabbos, even if it means sleeping in an airport.
2. Unlike our Great Grandparents, who were fired if the did not work on Shabbos (USA), or where were ostracized, and possibly incarcerated for keeping Shabbos (USSR). How often do we get a chance to be moser nefesh for Shabbos? This was a tremendous gift from Hashem to us that we had the chance to show Hashem how much we love him and his Torah, and we ALL took it.
3.     Every parent in that hotel who was not able to be home with their children that Shabbos taught their child a lesson that they could not have taught them in a 100 Shabbosim at home.   They showed that Shabbos means so much to Mommy, Tatty, Ima, Abba, etc that they would walk off a plane in the middle of a foreign country with no guaranty of food or a place to sleep.
4.     Yom Tov in the Beis Hamikdash was probably like this Shabbos.   Jews from all over coming together for Hashem and his mitzvos.I hope to see all of my fellow passengers this Pesach bringing korbanos in the Beis Hamikdash.
May we be zoche to see Mashiach and the return of the Beis Hamikdash.

With much love
Ben Chafetz
And now you know....the Rrrrest of the Story

Thank you for the first hand account. I am just curious as to the obligation to follow the Sabbath. The events were out of your control so is the expectation you make every effort to conform given the circumstances thus the landing in Athens?

I am not Ben Chafetz, but yes, they should have made every effort to arrive early, changing flights (before inconveniencing the heck out of everyone) if necessary.
On the same chat groups every Jew is reminding each other to avoid Thursday night trips eastward to Israel in the winter (with the frequent delays and early sunsets)

A furnace is a machine too but they have heat on the Sabbath and holy days, right? They aren't doing the work personally but the machine isn't shut off is it? If that's the case then I don't see why being in an airplane would be that much different.

In the case of a furnace, you have set its desired temperature before the Sabbath and it automatically turns on and off to keep that setting. You don't have to touch it. You are allowed to set electrical things on timers, so you can have lamps come on and off according to timers you set before the Sabbath.

As far as airplane travel, there are many possible violations of the Sabbath involved. You may very well have items you are not allowed to handle on the Sabbath in your luggage, such as electrical items. You can't travel by car to a hotel or to your home on the Sabbath, so you'd be stranded at the airport. You can't use money on the Sabbath, so how would you pay that cab? You can't carry things from one place to another unless special conditions are set up before the Sabbath, so you could not carry your luggage. You could not even carry your house keys! It would be a right mess to arrive after the Sabbath commenced, trust me.

What are the rules for say slower modes of transportation. I know most the the Ultra-Orthodox are from families who immigrated from Eastern Europe to the US during the great wave of immigration the preceded World War I. I was curious what happened if someone is on a ship crossing the Atlantic to come to America.