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Russian Minister Says 'Amoral' To Investigate Veracity of Soviet Wartime Legend
RFE/RL ^ | Dec 3, 2018 | Matthew Luxmoore

Posted on 12/03/2018 12:11:29 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege

"Even if this story were made up from start to finish, even if there had been no Panfilov, even if there had been nothing at all,"... "this is a sacred legend, which simply cannot be touched. And those who do so are washed-up scumbags."

Russia's culture minister has revealed historical records that he claims prove the authenticity of a World War II legend largely debunked by historians, delivering the latest salvo in a long-running dispute that challenges the official narrative of the Soviet Union's war experience.

Commonly referred to as "Panfilov's 28 men," the legend is among the most controversial episodes of World War II. According to a version long advanced by Soviet and Russian authorities, 28 soldiers of Panfilov's division gave their lives stopping a column of several dozen German tanks in its advance on Moscow in the winter of 1941. The men were posthumously named Heroes of the Soviet Union.

The legend was first popularized on the pages of the Soviet Army newspaper Red Star in a November 1941 article by Aleksandr Krivitsky, and was quickly spread by other journalists on the front line as an example of the bravery and sacrifice of Soviet soldiers. With the collapse of the Soviet Union and the opening of state archives, it came under scrutiny from historians. In 1997, an article in the journal New World dismissed the story as a fabrication, claiming among others that many of the men listed dead were in fact still alive.

(Excerpt) Read more at rferl.org ...


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: aleksandrkrivitsky; groundhogday; moscow; panfilovs28men; propaganda; putinsbuttboys; redstar; russia; sovietunion; ussr; worldwareleven; worldwarii; wwii
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1 posted on 12/03/2018 12:11:29 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Just sayin’.....we’ve given a total “pass” to the questionable aspects in McCain and GHWB resumes lately.


2 posted on 12/03/2018 12:17:41 PM PST by grania ("You don't give power to an angry left wing mob")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

It is not surprising that the USSR communist propaganda exaggerated these men and their battle against the Germans.

Then again, it is not surprising that (some, many, all) of today’s “historians” are attacking AND ARE DEFENDING the communists and their propaganda.

Where is Putin and Putin’s propaganda machine and bureaucracies? Wherever it will benefit Putin and his view of the future of Russia.


3 posted on 12/03/2018 12:18:38 PM PST by Robert A Cook PE (The democrats' national goal: One world social-communism under one world religion: Atheistic Islam.)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
According to a version long advanced by Soviet and Russian authorities, 28 soldiers of Panfilov's division gave their lives stopping a column of several dozen German tanks in its advance on Moscow

Or, they were shot by Soviet Commissars after running for cover.

4 posted on 12/03/2018 12:26:22 PM PST by PGR88
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

That’s one thing that always PO’d about communism. There are probably real heroic awesome stories we’ll all never hear about because they didn’t fit the communist agenda. It’s a loss for all of us except the jerks in charge. And our left wants more of it.


5 posted on 12/03/2018 12:34:24 PM PST by Hillarys Gate Cult
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To: CondoleezzaProtege
"All of them were sacred martyrs outside of a religious context. They are our spiritual template," he writes. "Our national identity is based on the examples and the names of these civilian saints, and generally speaking the civic and historical unity of our country."

Medinsky

Fake History... Fake Heros... Fake country.

6 posted on 12/03/2018 12:36:34 PM PST by RedMonqey ("Those who turn their arms in for plowshares will be doing the plowing for those who didn't.")
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To: grania

It’s called the fog of war. The American public believed Colin Kelly had his crew bail out and that he did a suicide dive into the battleship Haruna. He got a medal of honor for it.

In reality, the Haruna was nowhere around, he got a DFC for his bravery. And Saburo Sakai was there and described his shootdown. He said there was no suicide dive, but he said the bravery of the B-17 pilot in the fight was amazing.

And the Battle of Bunker Hill was really more like the Battle of Breeds hill, Paul Revere’s ride wasn’t really like Wadsworth’s poem, and the Washington Cherry tree incident was a writers fantasy.

But all of those things combine to give a nation it’s narrative. Screw any low life’s who enjoy tearing them down. They are no different than the people who tear down confederate memorials.


7 posted on 12/03/2018 12:47:25 PM PST by DesertRhino (Dog is man's best friend, and moslems hate dogs. Add that up. ....)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

And Vasily Zaitsev didn’t shoot Major Konig through the scope lens. Zaitsev was a very successful sniper, but Konig German sniper didn’t exist. OCD nation back in Berlin has no record of him despite a very good Jude Law hit movie.


8 posted on 12/03/2018 12:51:40 PM PST by DesertRhino (Dog is man's best friend, and moslems hate dogs. Add that up. ....)
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To: DesertRhino

The best factual story from Stalingrad was Pavlov’s House, where Russian soldiers under Pavlov held off the Germans for days, with fighting even going on inside the house.

Pavlov found a discarded New Testament in the house, and after the war — despite being a Soviet hero — became an orthodox monk. Stalin apparently allowed this.


9 posted on 12/03/2018 12:55:30 PM PST by CondorFlight
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To: DesertRhino

The best factual story from Stalingrad was Pavlov’s House, where Russian soldiers under Pavlov held off the Germans for days, with fighting even going on inside the house.

Pavlov found a discarded New Testament in the house, and after the war — despite being a Soviet hero — became an orthodox monk. Stalin apparently allowed this.


10 posted on 12/03/2018 12:55:31 PM PST by CondorFlight
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To: Hillarys Gate Cult
There are probably real heroic awesome stories we’ll all never hear about because they didn’t fit the communist agenda.

A nation cannot fight a war with another country, especially Germany, and not come out with heros. As you said these heros didn't fit the agenda of the communist masters so they didn't get the publicity they deserved.

Another issue is their film industry was just another arm of their government propaganda arm so everything was screwed up. Hollywood got mixed up with our government too but most people knew that every war movie was just that, a movie.

But the Soviet system got it's history mixed with the "Hollywood treatment" so much that everything the Soviets did has to be taken with a large boxcar of salt.

Back to the unsung heros, of course their are heroic Soviet soldiers just as they were heroic German soldiers. When one breaks it down to the individual bases, soldiers fight for their friends and fellow soldiers much more than they do for their governments.

Just look at our own Civil War, whole towns lost their young men because none of them wanted to go back home and face their neighbors and say they were too cowardly to fight, even thought they said so in many Civil War diary entries.

It's just human nature.
11 posted on 12/03/2018 12:55:33 PM PST by RedMonqey ("Those who turn their arms in for plowshares will be doing the plowing for those who didn't.")
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Believable on the surface, as some of these battles had 100s of thousand of dead on both sides. War time footage of some of the tank battles is just unbelievable, yet it happened.


12 posted on 12/03/2018 1:17:26 PM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Back in 1948 the proof was in that it was some political officer’s newspaper account, and not true. But they decided to just leave it be.

I’m guessing at least 80% of our recorded history is nothing like what we think it is. That trend has especially kicked into high gear after the film industry took off.

Lot’s of fantastic movies choose artistic license over truth.
In Young Guns at the end, when Billy shoots Murphy between the eyes, it didn’t happen. In reality, Murphy died of cancer several months later. And Josiah Gordon “Doc” Scurlock (Kiefer Sutherland) didn’t steal Murphy’s Chinese girl before being shot dead. He married a mexican woman and moved to Texas where he lived until 1929.

And Fighting Sullivans is a fantastic movie, and a tear jerker to be sure, but the death of the boys was very inaccurate.

And those Knights of the Round Table? The round table has no basis in fact, and it’s not even proven that Arthur existed. Lancelot was never heard of until about 700 years later until French poet Chrétien de Troyes’ mentions him in the 12th century.

No matter the society, we always get the most romantic, gallant, and inspiring story. If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.


13 posted on 12/03/2018 1:20:45 PM PST by DesertRhino (Dog is man's best friend, and moslems hate dogs. Add that up. ....)
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To: CondorFlight

Never hear that story about the monk. Interesting.
And some of the bravest stories end with the brave person performing them, and nobody sees what they did, and the story dies with them.

Some unknown guy in a wagon with his family crossing Nebraska who died with his wife and kid fighting off Cheyenne probably fought with unspeakable bravery.

Some WWII pilot probably shot down 5 planes and became an ace and never made it home, and nobody ever knew.

Some grunt on Iwo Jima or probably fought fought three Japs in a desperate bayonet fight nobody saw and nobody survived.

God only knows what stories we will never know.


14 posted on 12/03/2018 1:27:20 PM PST by DesertRhino (Dog is man's best friend, and moslems hate dogs. Add that up. ....)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

A very famous World War II legend in Russia.

The historical accuracy of the incident doesn’t matter. Russians believe the Panfilov 28 are heroes.

And legends of military bravery take on a life of their own. So much so, a movie was made about it.


15 posted on 12/03/2018 1:53:40 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

“CHARGE !!!!”

But I have No Weapon or Ammunition!

Pick it up on the way... if you look back, you die.

(Russian Motivation)


16 posted on 12/03/2018 1:53:46 PM PST by TexasTransplant (Damn the Torpedoes! Full Speed Ahead!)
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To: DesertRhino
13 I’m guessing at least 80% of our recorded history is nothing like what we think it is. That trend has especially kicked into high gear after the film industry took off. Lot’s of fantastic movies choose artistic license over truth.

e.g. in 1941's "Sergeant York", actor Gary Cooper portrayed York's turkey hunting strategy against German troops as a gobble call to cause the German troops to raise their heads in curiosity above their trench cover whereupon he shot them in the head. In reality he spotted a column of German troops on the move and applied the turkey hunting strategy of shooting the last man in the column so the others in front just kept moving without knowing their comrade{s} had fallen.

17 posted on 12/03/2018 2:23:23 PM PST by MacNaughton
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To: CondoleezzaProtege

Proof that these Russian men don’t really exist: Mueller just indicted them.


18 posted on 12/03/2018 2:24:44 PM PST by pepsi_junkie (Often wrong, but never in doubt!)
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To: MacNaughton

I wondered about that when I saw that too. I’ve always wished movies would just tell the real story without dramatic license. The truth is usually even better.


19 posted on 12/03/2018 2:29:58 PM PST by DesertRhino (Dog is man's best friend, and moslems hate dogs. Add that up. ....)
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To: pepsi_junkie
Proof that these Russian men don’t really exist: Mueller just indicted them.

 face with tears of joy face with tears of joy face with tears of joy face with tears of joy

20 posted on 12/03/2018 2:39:01 PM PST by kiryandil (Never pick a fight with an angry beehive)
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