Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Rand Paul: Paper is paper; money is money
Washington Examiner ^ | July 22 | Sen. Rand Paul

Posted on 07/22/2020 5:16:49 PM PDT by RandFan

The time came when the emperor decreed: “The people are in need; a plague is upon the land. I will give them money.”

The people had been made to believe that paper was money. So, the emperor ordered that paper bearing the government insignia be printed and distributed to the people.

Now, the people had been trained to accept paper as money, but they still hung onto the belief that even paper money required work to be considered valuable.

But the emperor reassured them that paper is money backed by the full faith and credit of government (aka paper money has value because the government can always commandeer more of the people’s work).

So, when the plague worsened, the emperor printed and distributed paper money to everyone, whether they lost their job or not.

Karl Marx and his followers smiled slyly behind covered mouths. And paper money flooded the land.

“Deficits don’t matter,” said Dick Cheney and the Bernie Bros. All the while, deficits continued to pile higher than even the dead bodies.

Until one day, the emperor made the fatal mistake of taking a stroll among his people.

Most people bowed and thanked him profusely for the wads of paper money he printed for them. But from the crowd, one young woman dared to ask, “If money can simply be created, why don’t we simply print, print, and print some more?”

“If wealth can be created de novo, why should we work at all?”

The emperor flushed but did not answer. In time, though, the illusion wore thin, and people discovered that paper is indeed paper and not money.

But this realization took time. In the beginning of the pandemic, toilet paper became scarce. Ironically, in the end, paper money no longer could buy toilet paper but became toilet paper.

Supposedly wise men stroked their chins and mused, “Why didn’t we resist before paper money became paper-mache? Why didn’t we question whether wealth could be created without work? Why were we silent?”

No one could answer. One very thin, very old man clutching his Nobel Prize in economics and one of the last copies of the New York Times offered this: “If you take the billion-dollar notes and soak them in water, they don’t chap the bottom so much.”

Sen. Rand Paul, a Republican, is the junior senator from Kentucky.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: gold; inflation; ky; rand; stimulus
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-60 last
To: RandFan
And I just heard one of the Karl Marx followers whisper "We must have a jubilee, to restore equality!"
41 posted on 07/22/2020 10:53:20 PM PDT by Grandpa Drudge (Just an old man, desperate to preserve our great country for my grandchildren.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: eyeamok

l8r 2


42 posted on 07/23/2020 12:17:16 AM PDT by preacher ( Journalism no longer reports news, they use news to shape our society.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Grandpa Drudge
Not really. It is a fine expression of the classical economic reasoning of the Austrian school as formed in the 1920s and 30s. The problem is that this thinking does not explain the severity of the Depression or take into account the role of the US dollar as the world's primary and preferred trade and reserve currency.

In effect, the dollar has this role because it is superior to both gold and to any competing fiat currency. Not only does the US have the world's largest economy, but the US is trusted to keep honest account books, is powerful enough to keep the peace, and manages an orderly, consensus-based system of international rules for trade, banking, and finance.

To accommodate the demand for dollars around the world, the US must pump out enough dollars and dollar denominated federal debt to keep the international economy running. For example, early this year, the Fed intervened in the financial markets and made massive sums available for reverse repo transactions. This prevented the markets from seizing up and caused some sharp comment about the Fed's motives. Only months later did it become clear that the international financial system was coming under severe strain from China because of the early effects of the coronavirus.

The Fed's role in actively managing dollar and dollar debt liquidity in key markets is deeply troubling to hard money advocates, which includes the Austrian school and Rand Paul. Yet neither seem to want to recognize that the defects of gold as a monetary base contributed in a major way to the severity of the Depression. Unintentionally, the gold accumulation policies of the US and France caused a devastating global contraction of the world's monetary base.

If it were possible to go back to gold as the world's monetary base, the problem of managing the supply of monetary gold would recur in new form. Gold production and monetary use and accumulation in non-monetary reserves would have to be controlled. This would require the cooperation of the world's major gold producers.

Since China and Russia are number one and three on that list, I see no end of trouble from them if we went back on gold. They would inevitably use their large gold production and holdings to menace the world economy and set the terms of economic and financial exchange to benefit themselves and disadvantage the US and other free nations.

I was long ago reconciled to this line of argument having thin appeal against the attractiveness of gold and the fundamentalist style of argument. People with little knowledge of economics and history can be easily convinced that gold is the only real money and that saying otherwise is akin to denying the divinity of Jesus Christ.

43 posted on 07/23/2020 2:03:42 AM PDT by Rockingham
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Rockingham
"Rand Paul is a gold bug. And he does not understand the nature of money and wealth in a modern economy."

With your superior understanding, do you think you could answer the question Rand posed?

“If wealth can be created de novo, why should we work at all?”


44 posted on 07/23/2020 2:16:39 AM PDT by Garth Tater (What's mine is mine.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Garth Tater
No society can create wealth "de novo" for itself by simply issuing currency. Indeed, even a sack of gold coins does not constitute wealth unless there are things available for purchase that one needs or wants to purchase. Similarly, dollars are not wealth without things to buy and people willing to sell those things or to perform useful services in return for those dollars.

In the modern era, dollars and all other functional fiat currencies are just accounting entries that reflect the availability of things and services for purchase. New currency can be created, but unless it is in balance with the supply of goods and services, every new unit of currency diminishes the value of all other currency.

In the end, there is no escaping the need for work. Unless people are willing to work to produce and sell goods and services, a sack of gold coins or a stack of hundred dollar bills have no worth. This can be brought home to the slow learners by passing out wads of Monopoly money and telling them that they are now rich if they can find people willing to sell them anything in return for it.

45 posted on 07/23/2020 2:53:53 AM PDT by Rockingham
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: RandFan

Nothing cryptic about it - money used to be backed by something of actual value and paper and coin was a representation of that commodity - today it is an illusion.


46 posted on 07/23/2020 3:31:49 AM PDT by trebb (Don't howl about illegal leeches, or Trump in general, while not donating to FR - it's hypocritical.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: captain_dave
Money is a non-physical something, perhaps akin to energy and life, that we use to represent and value the wealth we create.

Money is simply data about energy use. Gold can be used to represent this data because it requires a fairly stable amount of indirect energy consumption to mine, therefore gold energy data is portable across all borders and economies. The exact same applies to Bitcoin.

Energy consumption is roughly the same thing as GDP, just from a different perspective. The USA consumes 24% of the world's energy and by no small coincidence creates exactly 24% of the world's GDP. Quality of life in any country is proportional to the government taxed and regulated price of energy in that country.

Socialism primarily fails because some things are priced far below the energy needed to provide them. That creates a financial short-circuit that leads to economic meltdown.

It's important to understand the close relationship between money data and energy use because pollution is roughly proportional to energy consumption. If wind and solar power drive up electricity rates, simply follow the money to find out where they cause more pollution than before. It becomes obvious that most renewable energy as well as recycling programs make no rational sense.

47 posted on 07/23/2020 4:12:21 AM PDT by Reeses (A journey of a thousand miles begins with a government pat down.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Rockingham

and you do?


48 posted on 07/23/2020 4:42:38 AM PDT by wny
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Reeses

Good insight


49 posted on 07/23/2020 6:52:01 AM PDT by captain_dave
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: wny

More so than Rand Paul. I was reading economics texts when he was trying to memorize his multiplication tables in elementary school.


50 posted on 07/23/2020 10:13:21 AM PDT by Rockingham
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: Rockingham
"No society can create wealth "de novo" for itself by simply issuing currency."

That is correct and it's also pretty much Rand's point. Wealth can't be created "de novo" and money being a form of wealth also can't be created from nothing - but fiat currency can and is created "de novo." How many trillions of fiat dollars have been created in the last 4 months?


"Indeed, even a sack of gold coins does not constitute wealth unless there are things available for purchase that one needs or wants to purchase."

That's just a silly statement. There are always things that one wants to purchase. A pretty young lady's attention for one - which is one of the reasons why shiny gold has intrinsic value.


"In the modern era, dollars and all other functional fiat currencies are just accounting entries"

A fiat currency requires trust to maintain its value - gold and silver don't (as long as there are pretty young ladies.) Now that vote buying is approved of by the uneducated masses (as long as they get their bag of bucks) how long do you think our politicians will be able to control themselves?


"New currency can be created, but unless it is in balance with the supply of goods and services, every new unit of currency diminishes the value of all other currency."

"unless it is in balance" Apparently, after taking a look at the national debt, it's not in balance. But what are we going to do, accept this hidden theft or descend into chaos? Tough choice, but either way I'd like to have a bit of the shiny on hand to see me through.


"In the end, there is no escaping the need for work."

Most people have to work in order to be able to purchase goods and services, but not all people - some just create their dollars with a simple accounting entry.


"Unless people are willing to work to produce and sell goods and services, a sack of gold coins or a stack of hundred dollar bills have no worth."

When the shit hits the fan, as tends to happen with fiat currencies, that pretty young lady is still going to want that pretty gold necklace - your stack of hundred dollar bills... not so much.


51 posted on 07/23/2020 10:48:31 AM PDT by Garth Tater (What's mine is mine.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Rockingham
Oh, good! An expert in Keynesian Economics!

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/k/keynesianeconomics.asp

Perhaps you can reflect on the Fed printing an additional FOUR TRILLION DOLLARS of fiat money in the last two months without any corresponding increase in goods available to buy with that money. Please consider the following in your reply.

Hyperinflation: Its Causes and Effects With Examples

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-hyperinflation-definition-causes-and-examples-3306097
52 posted on 07/23/2020 2:32:47 PM PDT by Grandpa Drudge (Just an old man, desperate to preserve our great country for my grandchildren.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Grandpa Drudge
The Fed and Treasury create new money and sell debt not just for the domestic economy but also to meet international demand. The demand for dollars soared in the last year due to the coronavirus pandemic as banks and investors dumped other trade and reserve currencies for dollars.

As bad as US public finances are, other developed nation economies are in worse shape with higher levels of indebtedness. If hyperinflation is in the offing, they will suffer it first, with the dollar actually benefitting.

53 posted on 07/23/2020 8:52:04 PM PDT by Rockingham
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: Garth Tater
In the aggregate, both gold and reliable fiat money function as a store of value but their utility requires them being legal tender and broadly functional and accepted in the marketplace as a medium of exchange.

Gold is nicer to look at than paper currency but it is harder to carry and break down into smaller units. And just when did the country last endure a crisis that made gold preferable to paper currency in ordinary transactions? One could live a long time -- many lifetimes -- without ever needing gold for the sake of survival. And if things ever get that bad, guns, ammo, and food will be more sought after than gold.

My objection to Rand Paul's account is that it offers a niave rationale that seems to originate more in fundamentalist style teaching than an understanding of economics. Eventually, as with too much fundamentalist preaching, the mind may rebel in favor of more substantial fare.

54 posted on 07/23/2020 9:22:00 PM PDT by Rockingham
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: Rockingham
Well, that's a "nothing answer" if I ever saw one.

I asked for some rational discussion of the recent four trillion dollar wealth transfer from the working public's earnings and savings to the Emperor's lackeys, through the process of printing $4 Trillion new fiat money coincident with a massive reduction in goods available for purchase by that money. (Note: I'm pretty sure even Keynes would not approve of that)

By the way, you are right about other nations being in worse shape, but that just means the debt crisis at the root of this is worldwide, and because they are all so intertwined with the dollar, it will be a worldwide collapse, including the dollar, instead of nation by nation, and it will cascade very rapidly once it starts.

55 posted on 07/23/2020 11:46:15 PM PDT by Grandpa Drudge (Just an old man, desperate to preserve our great country for my grandchildren.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: Rockingham
"In the  aggregate  short term, both gold and reliable fiat money function as a store of value"

Forty eight years ago the first new car I bought cost me $2700. The last car I bought two years ago cost me $24,000. Priced in gold those cars would have cost me 7 ounces and 13 ounces. Seems like the "reliable" fiat currency didn't hold its value nearly as well as the gold.


"but their utility requires them being legal tender and broadly functional and accepted in the marketplace as a medium of exchange."

Gold is accepted everywhere and always has been. It has intrinsic value and requires no legal status. US dollars on the other hand have value only due to their legal status. Yes, there have been times and places where oppressive governments have outlawed the use of gold as a currency, but even then a man's business was still able to be transacted in gold.


"Gold is nicer to look at than paper currency but it is harder to carry and break down into smaller units."

Harder to carry? At $1800 per ounce one million dollars worth of gold weighs about 35 lbs. I think I could carry enough in my briefcase to transact any business I might happen to find myself involved in.

Harder to break down into smaller units? That's why we have silver coins. Sheesh.


"One could live a long time -- many lifetimes -- without ever needing gold for the sake of survival."

Could is the operative word. Shit does happen and predicting the future over a lifetime is a fools game. Though one thing is easy to predict and that is that a fiat currency will lose some of its value every year.


"And if things ever get that bad, guns, ammo, and food will be more sought after than gold."

Which has nothing to do with the discussion. If you can envision a time when gold has no value (which has never happened) do you really think a fiat currency will have value?


"Eventually, as with too much fundamentalist preaching, the mind may rebel in favor of more substantial fare."

More substantial fare? You've told me that wealth can't be created "de novo" by issuing currency and you've told me that after a reliable currency is issued it can serve as a store of value. If a stored value isn't wealth, what is it?

I think your more substantial fare might be able to learn a thing or two from Rand.


56 posted on 07/24/2020 1:06:23 AM PDT by Garth Tater (What's mine is mine.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: Grandpa Drudge
If you want a discussion, you are going to have to be specific about what you mean by four trillion dollars in new money.

Even massive deficit spending need not create new money if it is financed by borrowing or asset sales. And, when economic conditions permit, the Fed and the Treasury can withdraw money by selling financial assets. The assets go back into private hands and the money that paid for them goes onto the government books.

The larger issue of course is not the specifics of Fed money creation but how long the US can run chronic deficits. No one knows, and it is all too plausible that, like Weimar Germany or Zimbaubwe, the US might try money creation as a way to finance its deficits. There is no law of economics though that makes that inevitable, no matter what Rand Paul thinks.

57 posted on 07/24/2020 3:07:17 AM PDT by Rockingham
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: Garth Tater
We seem to have reached a moment of insight: your affection for gold combines nostalgia and faith, while I and almost all of the rest of the world see fiat and paper money as more convenient and efficient. Indeed, since a trip to the past seems unavoidable, throughout history, not long after banks develop and credit and transfers on account become possible, paper and other forms of fiat money emerge from private issuers.

For example, in an era of abundant gold and silver coinage, ancient Rome developed a form of credit that became paper money of a sort. After all, for a large transaction like the purchase of an elite level house in Rome, who wanted to lug several tons of coin to the closing?

Eventually, it became possible in ancient Rome to transact business by bank account book entries and credit assignments, with written notes showing a particular sum on deposit becoming a form of credit and checking account. Moreover, loans could be transferred, which made the flow of payments valuable like commercial paper is today. In effect, in addition to banks, ancient Rome had developed other rudiments of modern finance.

This could result in consumer credit situations that we moderns easily recognize. As posted by the New York Federal Reserve Bank:

Imagine yourself a Roman citizen in the 1st Century B.C. You’ve gone shopping with your partner, who’s trying to convince you to buy a particular item. The thing’s pretty expensive, and you demur because you’re short of cash. You may think that back then such an excuse would get you off scot-free. What else can you possibly do: Write a check? Well, yes, writes the poet Ovid in his “Ars Amatoria, Book I.” And since your partner knows it, you have no way out (the example below shows some gender bias on Ovid’s part. Fortunately, a few things have changed over the past 2,000 years):

But when she has her purchase in her eye, She hugs thee close, and kisses thee to buy; “Tis what I want, and ‘tis a pen’orth too; In many years I will not trouble you.” If you complain you have no ready coin, No matter, ‘tis but writing of a line; A little bill, not to be paid at sight: (Now curse the time when thou wert taught to write.)

Not only today, but even in ancient Rome, when your beloved wants a pricey bauble, you commonly paid for it by credit instead of by plopping down gold and silver.

Moreover, if one looks at the development of the US, for most of our history different parts of the country wanted different types of banks and different economic and monetary policies. In the early Republic, the most settled areas of the US around Boston, New York, and Philadelphia wanted hard money policies and saw gold on deposit as the linchpin of commerce and credit.

Of course, outside of those areas where people wore silk stockings and knee britches, people found it hard to get gold and silver coin. This made it difficult to transact business and to convert agricultural produce into money that could be used to pay for other things.

For many decades, US states and the federal government had competing banking charter systems, with state charters easier to get, and with easier capital reuirements and looser credit policies. This gave states eager to grow the ability to mobilize credit money by granting more bank charters.

These examples could be greatly multiplied, but I think that I have made my point: even in the era of the gold standard, various forms of paper money and credit were essential to commerce and development. That being so, paper money is real money and no less so than gold or silver. And in the modern era, just like with gold and silver coin of the realm, the issuance of fiat money is reserved to the government.

In effect, governments, banks, and finance companies are all part of a vast system of interlocking account books. That is where the modern monetary base resides, with paper currency as a minor convenience. And it would be that way even under a gold standard, but with added complications and limitations due to requiring gold on physical deposit in the national treasury before currency and gold credits can be issued.

And, under a gold standard, the worldwide trade, transfer, and accumulation of gold would have to be regulated and controlled to prevent the system from being gamed. It is hard to imagine that working well given human nature and the world's fault-lines and power rivalries.

58 posted on 07/24/2020 9:15:11 AM PDT by Rockingham
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: Rockingham
"We seem to have reached a moment of insight: your affection for gold combines nostalgia and faith"

Nostalgia and faith, huh? No facts, logic or reasoning? Is that why when I pointed out the error you made in saying that fiat currency is a store of value you ignored it and failed to respond? And when I pointed out your two contradictory statements:

you ignored it and again failed to respond.

And now you want to give me a lesson in Roman history and the development of the modern (read govt sanctioned fraud) banking system? Why would I take the time to refute (easily) any of the points you've made? You will simply ignore my side of the conversation and return with another irrelevant lecture. Frankly Rockingham, you are not worth the time and are now on my ignore list.

Have a nice day.


59 posted on 07/24/2020 1:30:49 PM PDT by Garth Tater (What's mine is mine.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: Garth Tater
Beyond question, fiat money and financial instruments based on it can be a store of value. This is a basic of finance. Do not take my word for it. Buy a copy of the Wall Street Journal or other financial paper and take a look at the price listings for notes, bonds, and certificates of deposit. Since people in the real world treat them as investment grade, they are in fact investment grade even if they are not backed by gold.

You seem to be unwilling as a matter of ideology to recognize the usefulness and value of fiat money dollars. They may seem to be backed by nothing, but they are legal tender backed by the US legal system and are recognized and accepted as valuable throughout the world.

60 posted on 07/24/2020 2:20:01 PM PDT by Rockingham
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-60 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson