Posted on 07/18/2004 11:04:36 AM PDT by Mulder
FAIRFAX, Va. (AP) - Carrying a weapon in public is legal in Virginia, but it's also upsetting to some. One restaurant chain owner had employees at his four northern Virginia shops post signs last week prohibiting firearms and declaring themselves a "safe zone." Kevin M. Tracy, director of operations for The Bungalow, said the restaurants banned gun-toting customers in March after a man with a firearm strapped to his hip sat down in its Franconia restaurant and ordered a drink. The man properly asserted that Virginia law allows him to openly carry his weapon.
But Tracy thinks guns, with the exception of those carried by police officers, have no place in his restaurants. "People change when they have alcohol," Tracy told The Washington Post. "I think people make too many bad judgments. I've had people who were perfectly wonderful snap."
Virginia residents must have permits to carry concealed weapons, which are prohibited by law from establishments that serve alcohol -- but guns openly displayed are permitted.
Still, restaurant and other business owners in the state have the right to ban customers carrying weapons - both openly carried and concealed - on their property, said Tom Lisk, general counsel for the Virginia Hospitality & Travel Association. Establishments can either post a notice or approach customers directly, he said, and people who violate the notice can be prosecuted under a trespass statute.
Tim Murtaugh, a spokesman for Virginia Attorney General Jerry W. Kilgore, said his office could not comment on whether businesses may legally ban patrons carrying guns, because it requires an "interpretation of law" that could not immediately be provided.
Many residents didn't know they had the right to pack a pistol in public until recent incidents in northern Virginia shops and restaurants. Fairfax police have said that residents have been spotted in the county with guns strapped to their hips three times in recent weeks.
Police said a group of men openly carrying guns at a Champps restaurant in Reston last month prompted a 911 call. Three days after that, an officer spotted a couple packing pistols at Reston Town Center. The instances involved members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, an organization of thousands of gun owners statewide, according to Philip Van Cleave, the group's president.
Jim Snyder, 54, of the Kingstowne area, one of the gun owners spotted at Champps, said there's an unfair perception that he and his brethren are prone to violence. He carries his Colt .45 for protection, he said.
"I'm definitely not a wannabe Rambo," said Snyder, who does not have a concealed weapons permit and must carry his gun openly. "I'd rather skulk away from a confrontation than go in. This is a tool of last resort."
The issue is expected to come up for debate in the General Assembly next year. Some lawmakers who share Tracy's concern said the debate, as in recent years, is likely to center on whether patrons should be allowed to carry guns in restaurants, such as The Bungalow, that serve alcohol.
State Sen. Janet D. Howell (D-Fairfax) said she'll reintroduce a bill that would prohibit openly carried guns anywhere alcohol is served.
"I think that any reasonable person would agree that alcohol and guns don't mix," Howell said. "It's better to make sure that nothing happens than be sorry afterward."
Jim Sollo, president of Virginians Against Handgun Violence, said his group believes the combination of guns and alcohol will eventually lead to trouble. He's counting on the recent episodes to stir up support for Howell's legislation next year.
"We think open carrying is dangerous. Sooner or later one of these guys is going to do something stupid or an unfortunate accident is going to happen," Sollo said.
But Van Cleave, a former Texas deputy sheriff who said most gun owners are law-abiding citizens, stressed that restaurant and other business owners already can bar weapons from their businesses if they choose. He said his members respect those choices and are advised to "politely leave" if asked.
Mike Stollenwerk, the man who was asked to leave The Bungalow that March evening, said he often openly carries his weapon in restaurants and "if people feel uncomfortable I've never noticed it."
Take out a billboard in the rough area of town. Have it say simply...
"XXX at 123 Business Rd guarantees he doesn't have a gun on the premise. If robbed he has no means to defend himself other than 911."
LEt's see what his reaction will be. If he is outraged just ask him what the big deal is?
These yahoos are gonna mess it up for everyone else, and ability to carry unconcealed is gonna go by the wayside!
Hey Mulder, do you think any FReeper lawyers out there could tell us if by posting this sign the proprietor purports his establishment to be "safe" and if it proves not to be, would the prop be civilily liable?
Same in Alaska. Not many disagree with this rule.
Well, which is it?
Here is a question for Johnnie Edwards ... if a criminal enters such an establishment and starts shooting up the place, do the survivors and victim's family have a case against the restaurant for "disenfranchising" their right to defend themselves against just such an incident?
Oops, I see Navy Patriot already asked that question.
I don't think I've ever heard of any CCW holder getting liquored up while carrying. or if they did they obviously never used their weapon.
There are 36 or so states that now have "must issue" CCW permits. The lefties always screamed "blood in the streets" when these laws were passed, it never materialized. What makes you think that it will happen this time?
No "oops" about it, maybe we can "Edwards" these pantywaist proprietors. That'll target 'em where it hurts, the wallet.
I personally won't go hunting with people who think it is neat to get liqured up and go blasting away at anything that moves.
Same deal here.
Show me some stats. How many of these guys openly carrying are committing ANY kind of crime. I'm willing to bet it is much lower than those carrying illegally or not carrying at all.
Bah... these nervous nellies saying "BUT WE CAN'T LET PEOPLE DO THAT" piss me off.
Same here in Florida, and it's a stupid law, since it puts a prior restraint on folks. I don't drink, so why shouldn't I be able to carry in bars?
Law-abiding citizens don't always remain so when they are liquored-up.
All the more reason for the good guys to carry in places that serve alcohol.
These yahoos are gonna mess it up for everyone else, and ability to carry unconcealed is gonna go by the wayside!
So the state will infringe upon their Right to open carry if they actually exercise that Right? How Orwellian.
It varies from state. In Utah, they tried to pass a law this year that said any place that banned carry could be held civilly liable. I don't know if it passed or not.
In other states, I think you would have a very strong civil case. Based on them making a fraudulent claim, if nothing else.
Exactly.
The law in Virginia is particularly onerous since it bans concealed carry in ANY place that serves alcohol. So if you want to eat somewhere other than McDonalds, you have two choices: 1) go unarmed, or 2) carry openly.
I, like the Patriots in this article, would choose #2 also.
More anti-gun propaganda in Fairfax, VA.
The government has to stick its nose in everything. If a business owner wants to prevent guns on his property, he is entitled to do so. The government has no business either helping or hindering him to do so.
When my N/W company opened its first store in Dallas, the Personnel manager (recently transplanted from Seattle) posted a large sign at the employee entrance, "Carrying Guns At Work Is Prohibited!" I remember, in front of many employees, asking her,..."But, how will you ever know?"
I think these types of demonstrations will quickly result in new laws restricting open carry. People just aren't going to ever be comfortable around someone with a weapon out in the open.
My take is that society has this bass ackwards. It seems to me that it should be legal to carry anywhere as long as it is concealed. This avoids scaring the women and children and protects rights. Any criminal wanting to carry is going to conceal anyway, so making that illegal only hurts the law abiding.
LOL! Now that adds a very nice 'touch'!
"If a business owner wants to prevent guns on his property, he is entitled to
do so. The government has no business either helping or hindering him to do so."
Given the above, how do you propose the business owner do so?
What a coincidence ...I'm perceived as making those who are violent criminals ....prone with my 1911A1.
Stay safe !
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