Posted on 07/18/2004 11:04:36 AM PDT by Mulder
FAIRFAX, Va. (AP) - Carrying a weapon in public is legal in Virginia, but it's also upsetting to some. One restaurant chain owner had employees at his four northern Virginia shops post signs last week prohibiting firearms and declaring themselves a "safe zone." Kevin M. Tracy, director of operations for The Bungalow, said the restaurants banned gun-toting customers in March after a man with a firearm strapped to his hip sat down in its Franconia restaurant and ordered a drink. The man properly asserted that Virginia law allows him to openly carry his weapon.
But Tracy thinks guns, with the exception of those carried by police officers, have no place in his restaurants. "People change when they have alcohol," Tracy told The Washington Post. "I think people make too many bad judgments. I've had people who were perfectly wonderful snap."
Virginia residents must have permits to carry concealed weapons, which are prohibited by law from establishments that serve alcohol -- but guns openly displayed are permitted.
Still, restaurant and other business owners in the state have the right to ban customers carrying weapons - both openly carried and concealed - on their property, said Tom Lisk, general counsel for the Virginia Hospitality & Travel Association. Establishments can either post a notice or approach customers directly, he said, and people who violate the notice can be prosecuted under a trespass statute.
Tim Murtaugh, a spokesman for Virginia Attorney General Jerry W. Kilgore, said his office could not comment on whether businesses may legally ban patrons carrying guns, because it requires an "interpretation of law" that could not immediately be provided.
Many residents didn't know they had the right to pack a pistol in public until recent incidents in northern Virginia shops and restaurants. Fairfax police have said that residents have been spotted in the county with guns strapped to their hips three times in recent weeks.
Police said a group of men openly carrying guns at a Champps restaurant in Reston last month prompted a 911 call. Three days after that, an officer spotted a couple packing pistols at Reston Town Center. The instances involved members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, an organization of thousands of gun owners statewide, according to Philip Van Cleave, the group's president.
Jim Snyder, 54, of the Kingstowne area, one of the gun owners spotted at Champps, said there's an unfair perception that he and his brethren are prone to violence. He carries his Colt .45 for protection, he said.
"I'm definitely not a wannabe Rambo," said Snyder, who does not have a concealed weapons permit and must carry his gun openly. "I'd rather skulk away from a confrontation than go in. This is a tool of last resort."
The issue is expected to come up for debate in the General Assembly next year. Some lawmakers who share Tracy's concern said the debate, as in recent years, is likely to center on whether patrons should be allowed to carry guns in restaurants, such as The Bungalow, that serve alcohol.
State Sen. Janet D. Howell (D-Fairfax) said she'll reintroduce a bill that would prohibit openly carried guns anywhere alcohol is served.
"I think that any reasonable person would agree that alcohol and guns don't mix," Howell said. "It's better to make sure that nothing happens than be sorry afterward."
Jim Sollo, president of Virginians Against Handgun Violence, said his group believes the combination of guns and alcohol will eventually lead to trouble. He's counting on the recent episodes to stir up support for Howell's legislation next year.
"We think open carrying is dangerous. Sooner or later one of these guys is going to do something stupid or an unfortunate accident is going to happen," Sollo said.
But Van Cleave, a former Texas deputy sheriff who said most gun owners are law-abiding citizens, stressed that restaurant and other business owners already can bar weapons from their businesses if they choose. He said his members respect those choices and are advised to "politely leave" if asked.
Mike Stollenwerk, the man who was asked to leave The Bungalow that March evening, said he often openly carries his weapon in restaurants and "if people feel uncomfortable I've never noticed it."
We obviously have very fundamental differences in the way we look at things.
I know that I am personally 100% responsible for my safety. Neither the police, nor the insurance companies, nor the government are capable of the task. Furthermore, the courts have ruled that they have no legal obligation to protect anyone.
As such, any edict which infringes upon my ability to carry (in a manner that I see fit) the tools necessary for self defense is a direct assault on my ability to protect myself.
Unlike you, I do not believe that anyone that peaceably carries a gun is a threat to my safety. I've been to shooting ranges where there have been 50 well armed Americans, all with "evil black rifles" and handguns openly carried, and felt totally safe. I have no problem with other Americans being armed. In fact, I'd rather be around armed citizens than armed cops.
As much as I don't like people, generally speaking, and think that many of them are idiots, I would still rather live in a society where the people are armed than where they are unarmed.
Yes, an "idiot" might do something stupid and cause someone to get hurt or killed, but usually their actions only affect them (Darwin at work). The number of accidental shootings in the US is astonishingly low for the population and number of firearms here.
But even if it wasn't low, and thousands of people died every year as a result, it is still much better than living in a totalitarian state where millions of people are murdered by the state each year.
I don't see an American peaceably carrying a gun in the open as a threat to me. Quite the contrary, I see it is a symbol of Freedom.
You, on the other hand, apparently view anyone carrying openly as an "idiot" (unless of course they are an agent of the Almighty State). As such, you would be more at home in the old Soviet Union or Red China.
Change is sometimes slow. Just as the gun culture has been eroded over the last 50 years, it will take a comparable amount of time to restore things back to the way they should be.
4 million Americans now have concealed carry permits, and the number is growing daily. As more and more people carry concealed, more and more people will also see why it's a good idea not to outlaw open carry.
Some folks on this thread would think that anyone who drove a car to a resturant that served alcohol was a "moron" and an "idiot".
Unless of course, it was a cop doing it.
NC allows businesses to post prohibitions on concealed guns in their establishments.
A few years ago a Pizza Hut near here which I had often patronized suddenly posted a "no guns" sign on it's door. I immediately contacted a NC gun owner organization about the sign, and they in turn contacted the Pizza Hut franchisee. When I went by the place a couple of weeks later the sign was down. Frankly I was surprised, because the restaurant was doing a booming business even while it was still up.
Same here in Ga, only worse. We can't carry openly or concealed in any restaurant that serves any type of alcoholic beverage. Some legislators have tried to get the law changed to allow CC in restaurants which derive less than half of their income from alcoholic drinks, but so far they haven't gotten anywhere.
Second, humans, INCLUDING POLICE AND OTHER ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS TRAINED IN THE USE OF HANDGUNS regularly kill innocents. There dozens of articles each year about police killing people with cell-phones, car keys, etc. in their hands. There are similar quantities of articles documenting TRAINED POLICE who are truly gun toting morons killing innocent residents in no-knock and other para-military raids.
Your Lakeland Florida story is a sad but ancedotal story that can not be used as a legal precedent. This was not the outcome when a deranged man drove through the window at a Luby's in Waco, Tx and killed 23 people. The management there now dearly wishes that some of its patrons had been armed. But you clearly have an agenda and in you self-righteous, self-enlightened arrogance look down your all knowing nose and call any civilian carry and side-arm as a gun toting moron. That is the language of liberals.
I can the restaurant owner's side on this, really. Suppose someone shoots another guy on the premises. The guy who was shot, whether for valid reasons or not, will hire a trial lawyer and sue the restaurant for serving alcohol to the gun toting man (or woman perhaps). Since trial lawyers tend to go after those with deeper pockets. Geez, they might also go after Anheuser Busch for making beer that made someone have impaired judgment...
Smoking...is still legal in every state..the last time I looked. Yet, many states have decided to "legislate" what private businesses can and cannot do on their premises. IF that's freedom....I'm Elmer Fudd.
FRegards,
If I refuse to do business there, that's my right as well.
SOME are.
And those with CPLS are oftentimes better trained.
An armed society is a polite society.
And, unfortunately some police officers do acquire a “cowboy” mentality. Shrinks even have a name for it - the Matt Dillon Syndrome.
That was uncalled for. I am not questioning the second amendment, just saying what history has proven, and that is that modern societies will not tolerate large numbers of citizens waltzing around with firearms strapped to their hips in plain sight. Whether that is right or wrong is another issue.
They have the right to be idiots. Its their property. If they want to hang out the equivalent of a "Victim Zone. Criminals Welcome" sign, they ought to be free to do so. By the same token, gun owners have a perfect right not to patronize businesses that don't want them.
Sound like this restraunt is no different from my gun club. If someone had a gun at the range and then took a drink of alcohol, they would be kicked out of the club.
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