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I suppose the section on Sodom and Gomorrah was torn out of your Bible, yes?

The Bible says the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were dripping hot wax on each other, flogging each other, and zapping each other with electricity? Wow! I MUST have missed that part. Please point it out, because *that* CERTAINLY must have been ripped out of any copy of the Bible *I* have ever seen. It sounds way better than any of the erotica in the Song of Solomon! :)

While these "consenting adults" certainly have the right to engage in whatever debauchery they want to (as long as they aren't doing in anyone else while they do it -- ewwww!), to do it in any sort of "church" really does not sit right with me.

It doesn't sit right with me, and I stated as much previously. Unfortunately, a Church has a right to do what it wants, and the only people who can tell it otherwise are the people who make up the Church. If you can't get the Church you attend to stop supporting stuff (either through direct sponsership, or by letting their facilities be used) you don't like, then you have to vote with your feet, and find a new place to go...

WyldKard, how would you feel if goats were being sacrificed for some bizarre "ritual sacrifice" of pre-teen virgins tied to some form of Satanic worship in the rectory of your friendly, neighborhood Catholic church? Unless you have the emotional output of a rock, it probably wouldn't sit right with you. This is nothing different.

Your statement is a little confusing. Are they ONLY sacrificing goats, or are they sacrificing both goats and children? First off, in BOTH possible examples, this is a direct church activity that is obviously being sponsered by said church. In his article, the author never says if the MCC directly sponsered this stuff, or merely let the groups use their space. Trust me, you MUST know churchs allow groups not affiliated with them to use their space. My monthly Unreal Tournament LAN party group meets at the local Methodist church, for instance, but we never get anything more than the use of the space.

If all they are doing is sacrificing goats, then I would be highly disturbed, and would want people to KNOW it's going on so they could act as they feel appropraite, but if all they are doing is killing animals, I don't think any real legal action should be brought against them. The people of the Church need to vote with their feet.

If they are killing children....well DUH!!! Of course one would want it shut down immediately, and the sickos involved brought to justice. You can't even begin to compare killing children to a couple of consenting adults spanking each other, for crying out loud.

This sounds like a group of folks who are using the term "church" in order to qualify for tax exempt status for their form of filth. It's a defilement of what most hold sacred, and should be stopped.

Once again, I'd like to know: Does the Church activly sponser this, or just let the people use their space? If it was the former, I would be more inclined to agree with you. Either way you are more than welcome to protest what they do (And God knows, yes, people abuse religion for tax reasons all the time. Just look at those nutcase Scientologists!), but right now, I don't see anything legally wrong with these people do, no matter how I personally feel about some of this sick stuff they are doing. The sad part about the Constitution, and Constitutional freedoms is you have to take the good with the bad. You have to take the hate speech spewed by the Neo-Nazi on the corner along with the religious gospel being preached on that same street corner. (Although the Liberals seem to be quickly finding ways to ban BOTH forms of free speech...) I think these quotes sum it up best:

The only freedom which counts is the freedom to do what some other people think to be wrong. There is no point in demanding freedom to do that which all will applaud. All the so-called liberties or rights are things which have to be asserted against others who claim that if such things are to be allowed their own rights are infringed or their own liberties threatened. This is always true, even when we speak of the freedom to worship, of the right of free speech or association, or of public assembly. If we are to allow freedoms at all there will constantly be complaints that either the liberty itself or the way in which it is exercised is being abused, and, if it is a genuine freedom, these complaints will often be justified. There is no way of having a free society in which there is not abuse. Abuse is the very hallmark of liberty.

-- Lord Hailsham

The Bible says the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were dripping hot wax on each other, flogging each other, and zapping each other with electricity? Wow! I MUST have missed that part. Please point it out, because *that* CERTAINLY must have been ripped out of any copy of the Bible *I* have ever seen. It sounds way better than any of the erotica in the Song of Solomon! :)

Touche - but what I was implying is that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah indicated that "debauchery" was rampant. I took that to mean that activities such as this (of course, electricity wasn't present at that point, but I think you know what I mean).

It doesn't sit right with me, and I stated as much previously. Unfortunately, a Church has a right to do what it wants, and the only people who can tell it otherwise are the people who make up the Church. If you can't get the Church you attend to stop supporting stuff (either through direct sponsership, or by letting their facilities be used) you don't like, then you have to vote with your feet, and find a new place to go...

This is true, but is this truly a church given that point?

In his article, the author never says if the MCC directly sponsered this stuff, or merely let the groups use their space. Trust me, you MUST know churchs allow groups not affiliated with them to use their space. My monthly Unreal Tournament LAN party group meets at the local Methodist church, for instance, but we never get anything more than the use of the space.

Point well taken - but I'm sure that activities that run counter to the beliefs of the church would not be permitted. And as long as you don't camp and pick off the newbies, I'm sure the Unreal party works as well...[g]

If they are killing children....well DUH!!! Of course one would want it shut down immediately, and the sickos involved brought to justice. You can't even begin to compare killing children to a couple of consenting adults spanking each other, for crying out loud.

Funny you mention this - the House of Prayer case here in Atlanta just had a trial date set for September. This very question is coming into play with that case. (for those who don't know, a somewhat charismatic preacher has imposed his own form of child rearing and discipline - including flogging of errant children by church members during church services - on the church. The preacher also arranges marriages for members, marrying off girls as young as 14; he promotes an isolationist mindset to his members; the church actually borders being a cult -- the preacher and some members are going on trial on child abuse charges)

After some honest thought, I can't answer the question you raise regarding whether or not this is sanctioned. My initial (albeit knee-jerk) reaction is that the church is flat-foot wrong, though.