Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


1 posted on 07/25/2003 6:40:03 PM PDT by Lessismore
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies ]


To: blam
Enjoy!
2 posted on 07/25/2003 6:40:39 PM PDT by Lessismore
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore
I tried to dig something out of the depths of my brain before I posted, but I just can't remember the details, just a vague memory of reading something within the past few months about a Mexican researcher who also has a new and controversial theory about the origins of the first Americans.
3 posted on 07/25/2003 6:53:09 PM PDT by DC native
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore
THERMOLUMINESCENCE DATING PROVES EARLY PEOPLING OF SIBERIA ( Diring Site Confirmed More Than 250,000 Years Old)

Go to this site and scroll down to the article.

5 posted on 07/25/2003 7:09:42 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cavtrooper21
BTTT
7 posted on 07/25/2003 7:10:46 PM PDT by cavtrooper21 (When in doubt, give em' both barrels.... then git in there quick with yer Bowie!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore
Sorry, but my people came here from The Sky World, and settled North America... any other idea is stupid.
8 posted on 07/25/2003 7:15:26 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (Giving Cathryn Crawford The Bird Since 2003)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore
A recent genetic study of Amerindians points to a common ancestor 18,000 years ago. This means that the migration to the Americas happened sometime after that date.
9 posted on 07/25/2003 7:16:33 PM PDT by Godebert
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore
PALEONTOLOGICAL
TESTIMONY





The Pleistocene Extinction


Paleontologists the world over know that something catastrophic happened to the large mammals roaming the world during the Pleistocene Epoch. Woolly mammoths, mastodons, toxodons, sabre-toothed tigers, woolly rhinos, giant ground sloths, and many other large Pleistocene animals are simply no longer with us. In fact, well over 200 species of animals (involving millions of individuals) totally disappeared at the end of the Pleistocene some 10,000-12,000 years ago in what is known to Paleontologists as the Pleistocene Extinction (Click for table).


Moreover, there is evidence of large geological changes which took place, such as massive volcanism, numerous earthquakes, tidal waves, to say nothing of the glacial melting which raised sea-levels several hundred feet worldwide. It's beginning to look like the Pleistocene Epoch didn't tippy-toe out silently, but rather ended with a large roar. Geologists and Paleontologists have an innate distaste for catastrophism, and that's understandable. Catastrophists, who in the beginning were identifying every strata of sediment with a worldwide flood, layer upon layer, almost totally discredited the field of geology--and uniformitarianism pulled the science out of the fire. But now, scientists in both fields are gradually realizing that both catastrophism and uniformitarianism (or gradualism) are at work in nature, and that everything can't be explained using one or the other alone (Gould, 1975). One of the indicators of the end of the Pleistocene 12,000 years ago is the huge numbers of frozen carcasses in both hemispheres: Canada and Alaska in the western, and Northern Russian and Siberia in the eastern.

THE AMERICAN REMAINS

Back in middle 1940s Dr. Frank C. Hibben, Prof. of Archeology at the University of New Mexico mounted an expedition to Alaska to look for human remains. The remains he found were not human, but what he found was anything but evidence of gradualism or uniformitarianism. Instead he found miles of muck filled with the remains of mammoth, mastodon, several kinds of bison, horses, wolves, bears and lions. Just north of Fairbanks, Hibbens and his associates watched as bulldozers pushed the half-melted muck into sluice boxes for the extraction of gold. Animal tusks and bones rolled up in front of the blades "like shavings before a giant plane". The carcasses were found in all attitudes of death, most of them "pulled apart by some unexplainable prehistoric catastrophic disturbance" (Hibben, 1946).


The evidence of the violence of nature combined with the stench of rotting carcasses was staggering. The ice fields containing these remains stretched for hundred of miles in every direction (Hibben, 1946). Trees and animals, layers of peat and mosses, twisted and mangled together like some giant mixer had jumbled them some 10,000 years ago, and then froze them into a solid mass (Sanderson, 1960). The evidence immediately suggests an enormous tidal wave which raged over the land, tumbling animals and vegetation within its mass, which was then quick-frozen. But the extinction is not limited to the Arctic.


Paleontologist George G. Simpson considers the extinction of the Pleistocene horse in north America to be one of the most mysterious episodes in zoological history, admitting that in all honesty no one knows the answer. He also admits that this is only a part of the larger problem of the extinction of many other species in America at the same time (Simpson, 1961). The horse is merely the tip of the iceberg: giant tortoises living in the Caribbean Sea, the giant sloth, the sabre-toothed tiger, the glyptodont and toxodon. These were all tropical animals. They weren't wiped out because Alaska and Siberia were experiencing an Ice Age. "Unless one is willing to postulate freezing temperatures across the equator, such an explanation clearly begs the question," say leading Paleontologists (Martin & Guilday, 1967).


Woolly rhinoceros, giant armadillos, giant beavers, giant jaguars, ground sloths, antelopes and scores of other entire species were all totally wiped out at the end of the Pleistocene. Massive piles of mastodon and sabre-toothed tiger bones were discovered in Florida (Valentine, 1969), while mastodons, toxodons, giant sloths and other animals were found in Venesuala quick-frozen among the mountain glaciers (Berlitz, 1969). All died at about the same time, roughly 12,000 years ago.

FROZEN ANIMALS IN SIBERIA

The picture in Siberia and northern Europe is no different. Just north of Siberia whole islands are formed of the bones of Pleistocene animals swept northward from the continent into the frigid waters of the Arctic Ocean. It has been estimated that some ten million animals lay buried along the rivers of northern Siberia. Thousands of tusks formed a massive ivory trade for the master carvers of China, all from the remains of the frozen mammoths and mastodons of Siberia. The famous Beresovka mammoth first drew attention to the preserving properties of being quick-frozen when buttercups were found in its mouth. This was no gradual event--it had to be sudden!


And the event was worldwide. The mammoths of Siberia became extinct about the same time as the giant rhinoceros of Europe; the mastodons of Alaska and the bison of Siberia ended simultaneously. The same is true of the Asian elephants and the American camels. The cause of these extinctions must be common to both hemispheres. If the coming of glacial conditions was gradual, it would not have cause the extinctions, because the various animals could have simply migrated to where conditions were better. What is seen here is total surprise, and uncontrolled violence (Leonard, 1979).


Geologists are once more becoming divided on the issue of catastrophism. A few are breaking away from their hard stand of the past, and are at looking at the problem with more of an open mind. Mr. Harold P. Lippman seems to be objective when he admits that the magnitude of fossils and tusks encased in the Siberian permafrost present an "insuperable difficulty" to the theory of uniformitarianism, since no gradual process can result in the preservation of tens of thousands of tusks and whole individuals, "even if they died in winter" (Lippman, 1962). Especially when many of these individuals have undigested grasses and leaves in their belly.


Certain misguided workers have vainly suggested that man was the cause of all this death and destruction. In the first place, the remains of the animals out number the remains of man a million to one. There is no way the populations of man could have killed this many animals. Some Pleistocene bone sites obviously represent the efforts of Big Game Hunters: fire was sometimes used to drive a herd of animals over a cliff or into a bog to be slaughtered for food. In these instances, the hand of man is rather obvious. Prof. N. K. Vereschagin of the then Soviet Union states bluntly: "The accumulation of mammoth bones and carcasses of mammoth, rhinoceros, and bison found in frozen ground in Indigirka, Lolyma, and Novosibirsk bear no traces of hunting of primitive man" (Vereschagin, 1967).

UNIVERSAL DEATH IN 10,000 B.C.

Charles Darwin, the famous naturalist, was shocked by the extinction of species at the close of the Pleistocene. He writes: "The extinction of species has been involved in the most gratuitous mystery . . . no one can have marvelled more than I have at the extinction of species" (Darwin, 1859). He declared that for whole species to be destroyed in Southern Patagonia, in Brazil, in the mountain ranges of Peru, and in North America up to the Bering Straits, one must "shake the entire framework of the globe".


Watching them cut the huge block of muck filled ice containing the mammoth remains on the recent "Discovery" TV special helped me realize: if a woolly mammoth standing out in the grasslands of central Asia were to suddenly die, for whatever reason, his body would simply rot and the scavangers would pick the bones clean. The only way for this to have happened would be for the mammoth to either fall in a lake or pond and drown or be swept into this mass of vegetation, insects and mud by a massive wave of water. Under which of these two scenarios would such an animal be quick-frozen? His hair and skin were still intact--even the food in his stomach!


Even the Pleistocene geologist William R. Farrand of the Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory, who is opposed to catastrophism in any form, states: "Sudden death is indicated by the robust condition of the animals and their full stomachs . . . the animals were robust and healthy when they died" (Farrand, 1961). Neither in his article nor in his letters of rebuttal does Farrand ever face the reality of worldwide catastrophe represented by the millions of bones deposited all over this planet right at the end of the Pleistocene.


Some geologists may be softening their traditional stand against axial tilts and other rotational variations which could be the cause of world catastrophies. Dr. J. R. Heirtzler of the Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory observed that there has been "a revival of a 30-year-old theory that the glacial ages were caused by changes in the tilt of the earth's axis . . . there is clear evidence that large earthquakes occur at about the same time as certain changes in the earth's rotational motion." He goes on to say: "Whatever the mechanism of these changes, it is not hard to believe that similar changes in the earth's axial motion in times past could have caused major earthquake and mountain-building activity (see my Archeology page: Tiahuanacu) and could even have caused the magnetic field to flip" (Heirtzler, 1968). It has also been found that the end of the Pleistocene was attended by rampant volcanic activity (Hibben, 1946).


More recently Prof. Stephen Jay Gould, professor of geology at Harvard University, after studying the geological and paleontological record intensively, has championed the cause for open-minded consideration of catastrophism and uniformitarianism. He concludes that both concepts are represented equally in the geological record (Gould, 1977). Prof. Hibben appears to sum up the situation in a single statement: "The Pleistocene period ended in death. This was no ordinary extinction of a vague geological period which fizzled to an uncertain end. This death was catastrophic and all inclusive" (Hibben, 1946).


So it seems we have the end of the Ice Age, the Pleistocene extinction, the end of the Upper Paleolithic (Magdalenian, Perigordian and all others), and the close of the "reign of the gods" in Manetho, all on roughly the same date - 10,000 B.C. It appears to me that the evidence, when all of it is taken into full consideration, points to a worldwide catastrophe, from whatever cause, which occurred at the close of the Pleistocene Epoch (roughly 10,000 B.C.) And this is about the date Plato gives for the sinking of Atlantis.

TOP of Page
Bibliography

Berlitz, Charles, "The Mystery of Atlantis," New York, 1969.
Farrand, William R., "Frozen Mammoths and Modern Geology," Science, Vol.133, No. 3455, March 17, 1961.
Heirtzler, J. R., "Sea-floor spreading," Scientific American, Vol. 219, No. 6, December 1968.
Gould, Stephen Jay, "Catastrophies and Steady State Earth," Natural History, Vol. LXXXIV, No. 2, February 1975.
Gould, Stephen Jay, "Evolution's Erratic Pace," Natural History, Vol. LXXXVII, No. 5, May 1977.
Hibben, Frank, "The Lost Americans," Thomas & Crowell Co., New York, 1946.
Leonard, R. Cedric, Appendix A in "A Geological Study of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge," Special Paper No. 1, Cowen Publ., Bethany, 1979.
Lippman, Harold E., "Frozen Mammoths," Physical Geology, New York, 1969.
Martin, P. S. & Guilday, J. E., "Bestiary for Pleistocene Biologists," Pleistocene Extinction, Yale University, 1967.
Sanderson, Ivan T., "Riddle of the Frozen Giants," Saturday Evening Post, No. 39, January 16, 1960.
Simpson, George G., "Horses," New York, 1961.
Vereshchagin, N. K., "Primitive Hunters and Pleistocene Extinction in the Soviet Union," Pleistocene Extinction (P. S. M
http://www.atlantisquest.com/Paleontology.htmlartin & H. E. Wright, J., editors), New Haven, 1967.
14 posted on 07/25/2003 7:26:58 PM PDT by ckilmer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore
I have a summer home in west Texas about fifteen miles from the original Clovis archealogical site in eastern new Mexico near Black Water Draw. It has been many years since I visited the site but it was supposedly discovered by a Sam Sanders while he was excavating for sand and gravel. When I last visited the site it was privately owned property but it is my understanding that the site has since been purchased by Eastern New Mexico University (ENMU). I was a biologist by trade (now retired) so my familiarity with the site's history is derived from stories I heard as a student at ENMU many years ago. I believe a Dr. George Agogino did some of the original work at the site. See bibliography at: http://best.me.berkeley.edu/~aagogino/g_agogino/bibliography2.html

Muleteam1

18 posted on 07/25/2003 7:59:38 PM PDT by Muleteam1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore
SPOTREP
19 posted on 07/25/2003 9:02:32 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore
ping to Grace
23 posted on 07/26/2003 2:55:44 AM PDT by Lion Den Dan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore
For researchers who believe that the Clovis were truly the first Americans

The first Americans were those who left Europe seeking a new life in a new world. Others lived there before, but they weren't Americans.

24 posted on 07/26/2003 5:32:56 AM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore; Black Agnes
the Smithsonian Institution has the remains of a "proto-Native American" (what sort of creature is that?????) from NM, which are carbon-dated to be AT LEAST 30,000 years old.(the curator, the last time i asked about the cadaver, "wasn't interested in discussing that subject" at all. LOL!)

13,000 years ago, therefore, seems really LATE for the dawn of AmerIndian civilization.

free dixie,sw

25 posted on 07/26/2003 9:58:56 AM PDT by stand watie (Resistence to tyrants is obedience to God. -Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore
A few years ago some Clovis artifacts were found in Canada and while the exact dating was disputed, it was not in the right place at the right time, it was considerably earlier than is permitted under the land-bridge idea. So how was it disputed? One of the future laureates said, "any dude could have put that there." Yeah, I'm sure some Eskimos found it in western Alaska 200 years ago, moved into southern Canada, and dropped it there.
26 posted on 01/08/2004 11:49:19 PM PST by SunkenCiv (I really dig archaeology.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore
Land bridge? Who the heck explores new territories by land? The first arrivals had to have taken boats, even if it was only along the shores. Least that's my belief.
27 posted on 01/08/2004 11:59:50 PM PST by kingu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Lessismore; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs
Just re-adding this to the GGG homepage, not sending a general distribution.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.

28 posted on 07/24/2004 3:58:44 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

30 posted on 02/22/2006 8:07:08 AM PST by SunkenCiv (The love of learning, the sequestered nooks, And all the sweet serenity of books. (Longfellow))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: blam

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic ·

 
Gods
Graves
Glyphs
Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.
The Solutrean Hypothesis in North American archaeology
To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are Blam, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

· Google · Archaeologica · ArchaeoBlog · Archaeology magazine · Biblical Archaeology Society ·
· Mirabilis · Texas AM Anthropology News · Yahoo Anthro & Archaeo ·
· History or Science & Nature Podcasts · Excerpt, or Link only? · cgk's list of ping lists ·


32 posted on 06/30/2008 8:56:21 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/_________________________Profile updated Friday, May 30, 2008)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson