Posted on 05/24/2011 8:44:52 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
Or, rather more worryingly, he really does believe what he preaches, in which case he really needs prayer.
That is unfair. Mr Camping and his projections have been criticised on these boards on numerous occasions before May 21st. The problem is that it is very difficult to counter faith, even (or more especially) misplaced faith through rational argument. It is just easier now.
“Thank you for calling and sharing.”
One liar rebuking another.
My comment was directed everyone.
directed to everyone
So, in other words, no one know for sure until it happens?
RE: One liar rebuking another.
Interesting, could you elaborate please?
“wherein you have not only removed repentance and faith under the guise of “works” “ — when did he do that?
The answer to the issue you imply with your comment "so, in other words, no one knows for sure until it happens" is that those of us who believe Mr Camping is wrong are doing so on the basis that we acknowledge that we do not know when Jesus will return. It is perfectly possible it could have been on May 21st 2011, in which case we would all have looked ridiculous! It might very well be tomorrow. It might be one hundred years from now. Mr Camping is not wrong to assert Jesus is returning - all Christians believe that - his error is in stating specifically when. He has no logical, biblical, rational or even inspirational basis for setting a date of May 21st, or any other for that matter. By doing this he not only brings the faith into disrepute, he also wastes huge amounts of people's time, energy and money that could be better spent elsewhere.
Okay, so how are you certain that Jesus will return? How is that different from Campings certainty that he will return on a given date except that his can be tested and yours can't? So, your certainty is really kept alive by uncertainty, isn't it?
I am certain that Jesus will return (or more specifically that God will intervene in Human affairs in a particularly climactic way) because He has revealed as such in His word, the Holy Bible. I know that can sound like a kind of a cop-out to some folk, particularly as Mr Camping is also claiming divine revelations for his predictions, but it is true nonetheless. The simple fact is that Mr Camping's interpretation of the Bible is flawed (and yes, I know he probably claims the same about mine).
How is that different from Campings certainty that he will return on a given date except that his can be tested and yours can't?
People make all kinds of claims for divine inspiration, and this can be very challenging because, of course, it is an appeal to a higher authority than any Human institution, and therefore if you object you can be made to seem to be going against Divine will. This is a problem that is covered in the Bible with "Beware...by their fruits you shall know them", which is a poetic way of saying that the results of someone's actions give a good indication of how much they are in accord with divine will. I'm not talking here just about Mr Camping's chosen date being obviously wrong, but on the effects of his teaching on the misguided souls who follow him. Are they, as a result of his thinking, happier, holier more wholesome Human beings? OR are they poorer, because they did not expect to need material possessions and have disposed of them? Are they bitter because of that? Have they been so focused on readying themselves on the future that they have forgotten to live in the present?
The differences between Mr Camping and an orthodox Christian viewpoint may seem small but the consequences of those differences are enormous. Because I do not know the day and the hour I have to live each day as if it might very well be my last (and logically it might be - even an atheist would acknowledge that is true). I have to take every opportunity to better myself, to progress, to say a kind word to someone else, to encourage them, maybe even correct them, because I know I might not get another chance. And yes I know I will fail sometimes. Maybe most times - but Mr Camping's brand of certainty makes all that kind of activity superfluous. For example. Why should his followers get involved in the 2012 election? They don't believe 2012 will happen! All that Human creativity, all that promise, all that desire to see a better future - wasted! "Knowing" the future effectively means not caring about the future. His kind of certainty effectively says "stuff the rest of you".
So, your certainty is really kept alive by uncertainty, isn't it?
My certainty is kept alive by my faith. There wouldn't be much value in my faith if I never doubted, so I suppose in that sense you could say it is kept alive by uncertainty - but it's a very cynical interpretation. I prefer to think of it as "keeping an open mind and allowing my ideas and opinions to progress in the light of new evidence and understanding".
Okay, and why are you certain the Bible tells you the truth?
I know that can sound like a kind of a cop-out to some folk, particularly as Mr Camping is also claiming divine revelations for his predictions, but it is true nonetheless
Because you says so?
The simple fact is that Mr Camping's interpretation of the Bible is flawed (and yes, I know he probably claims the same about mine).
Well, then how do I know who's right?
People make all kinds of claims for divine inspiration
No kiddn'...
"Beware...by their fruits you shall know them", which is a poetic way of saying that the results of someone's actions give a good indication of how much they are in accord with divine will.
So, you know all that's true because it's in the Bible and the Bible is true because you know it is? Sounds a little circular.
I'm not talking here just about Mr Camping's chosen date being obviously wrong, but on the effects of his teaching on the misguided souls who follow him.
Okay, he could be wrong on one date, but what makes you think he is wrong on everything else?
Because I do not know the day and the hour I have to live each day as if it might very well be my last (and logically it might be - even an atheist would acknowledge that is true)
But that's just reality. You don;t know that because the Bible says so.
I have to take every opportunity to better myself, to progress, to say a kind word to someone else, to encourage them, maybe even correct them, because I know I might not get another chance.
Do you have to meet a quota? Is there a scorecard or a critical score that you have to reach for your "salvation"? Doesn't that mean that salvation is your doing?
And yes I know I will fail sometimes. Maybe most times - but Mr Camping's brand of certainty makes all that kind of activity superfluous. For example. Why should his followers get involved in the 2012 election? They don't believe 2012 will happen!
And what if they are right? Normally only 1/3 of all Americans vote. Does that mean we don't get a government? Do you think you not voting will have an impact on when the world shall end?
My certainty is kept alive by my faith. There wouldn't be much value in my faith if I never doubted
Why? You think gravity wold work better if we doubted it every now and then?
I suppose in that sense you could say it is kept alive by uncertainty - but it's a very cynical interpretation.
Oh I don't think it;s cynical at all!
I prefer to think of it as "keeping an open mind and allowing my ideas and opinions to progress in the light of new evidence and understanding"
But if you are certain why do you need new ideas?
He is a heretic and a liar.
No different then Camping.
He is completely different from Camping. I’m not totally convinced by TULIP calvinism, but James White is not anti the KJB. He is anti the KJB-only.
I didn't know Camping was a Calvinist???
He’s using numerology.
That’s not biblical.
Excellent post. Thank you!
Why do you think that God would lie?
Because you says so?
Perhaps I should have been more precise and said "but I believe it to be so". My current understanding of scripture leads me to believe that Mr Camping is wrong.
Well, then how do I know who's right?
Well, I'm sorry but I'm afraid you're going to have to decide that for yourself! But a good start would be to consider the arguments put forward by both and see. Mr Camping has put forward what he believes to be true, and I have done the same.
So, you know all that's true because it's in the Bible and the Bible is true because you know it is? Sounds a little circular.
Well actually I was more pointing out that "a man reaps what he sows", which is another very poetic way of saying that there are consequences to your actions. If Mr Camping claims that what he is doing is in accordance with God's word, then the consequences of them should be very beneficial.
? Okay, he could be wrong on one date, but what makes you think he is wrong on everything else?
I never said that I thought he was wrong on everything else. I'm sure he's very right on many things. But I think he's wrong to set dates for the second coming.
But that's just reality. You don;t know that because the Bible says so.
I never said that I did know that because the Bible says so. Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean that I don't think, or reason, or learn about the world from other sources.
Do you have to meet a quota? Is there a scorecard or a critical score that you have to reach for your "salvation"? Doesn't that mean that salvation is your doing?
You're being facetious. I never said any of those things. I don't HAVE to do any of them, at least not to secure my salvation. The point is that people who think the world is coming to an end at such and such a date don't really care much about the present.
And what if they are right? Normally only 1/3 of all Americans vote. Does that mean we don't get a government? Do you think you not voting will have an impact on when the world shall end?
Well obviously if they are right its not going to make any difference whether any of us vote! The point is that they stop trying.
Why? You think gravity wold work better if we doubted it every now and then?
Faith is being certain about that which you cannot really know. I don't know exactly how gravity works. Neither do the finest minds on the planet. I trust that it does, based on my experience that it always has before! In the same way, I trust that when I flip a light switch the light comes on. I've studied electical engineering, and I know about ohms and volts and impedence, but I don't really know how electricity works. Nobody does. We all of us work on "faith" all the time.
But if you are certain why do you need new ideas?
Because I am a finite Human Being and my understanding is imperfect. New information alters you, if you let it. I personally have learnt huge amounts from conversations on these very boards. Even if they are opinions I disagree with, the very fact of refuting them forces me to think through exactly what I do believe, and to my shame I sometimes a lot of it I really haven't thought through as well as I might. Sometimes I have had to change my mind, based on the arguments others have cogently put to me. This is nothing to be ashamed of. It is how the democratic process works after all! There's nothing wrong with being ignorant, only in remaining so.
Yes, he is.
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