Posted on 02/02/2017 5:22:40 PM PST by grumpa
I hope you will examine these things with a biblical mind. Test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Begin here, then continue to the Index of Topics listed at the top right:
https://prophecyquestions.com/2014/02/01/articles-by-charles-meek
“WHEN WRITTEN. The evidence is strong that the book was written in the mid-60’s AD, prior to the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.”
False. Only preterists who need to believe this in order to prop up the rest of their unbiblical doctrines assert this.
Scholars who look at the evidence without a predetermined agenda usually conclude it was written after the fall of Jerusalem, but that would debunk all of preterism’s assertions in one fell stroke so preterists reject it on principle instead of based on the evidence.
For believers, this story is the important message written in the Book of Revelation: “The Rescue of the Bride” http://october-5-2017.com
Your heavenly father is calling to you, his children, to come to him through his son.
When you stand before your heavenly father, the only question that will make any difference is: “Did you accept the gift of eternal life that my son bought for you?” When he asks you that question, you want to be able to truthfully say, “Yes, I did.”
The early church fathers, Eusebius, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandria tell us that John was exiled to Patmos in the reign of Domitian, who only became emperor AFTER the fall of Jerusalem:
http://emp.byui.edu/SatterfieldB/Rel212/Eusebius/Eusebius%20on%20John.html
I’ve never found any sources of such early date which disagree with this assessment. The only sources that claim an earlier date come many centuries later, after the false doctrine of preterism was invented.
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1978/06/redating-the-new-testament
“Re-Dating the New Testament” by John A.T. Robinson shows the book of Revelation was written before Jerusamel fell in 70 A.D..
The author points out that there is no mention in the New Testament of the Temple in Jerusalem having been destroyed, I.e. a past event.
There is, however, many references to the event as being in the imminent future.
Second point
Why was dispensationalism not taught prior to 1830?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Catholic did not teach it; they are preterist...
Jerusamel —> Jerusalem
Actually, there is a large number of scholars who take an early date. The full article is at this link:
http://livingthequestion.org/revelation/
A short of example of the long list is below:
• Jay E. Adams, The Time Is at Hand (Philipsburg: 1966).
• D.E. Aune, Revelation 1—5 (WBC, 52A; Nashville: 1997) ; Revelation 6—16 (WBC, 52B; Nashville: 1998a) ; Revelation 17—22 (WBC, 52C; Nashville: 1998b).
• Greg L. Bahnsen, Victory in Jesus: The Bright Hope of Postmillennialism (1999).
• Joseph R. Balyeat, Babylon – The Great City of Revelation (1991).
• Arthur Stapylton Barnes, Christianity at Rome in the Apostolic Age (Westport: 1938), pp. 159ff.
• R. Bauckham, The Climax of Prophecy: Studies on the Book of Revelation (Edinburgh: 1993).
• W. Bauer, W.F. Arndt and F.W. Gingrich, A Greek—English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (1979).
• Ulrich R. Beeson, The Revelation (1956 PDF).
• Albert A. Bell, Jr., “The Date of John’s Apocalypse. The Evidence of Some Roman Historians Reconsidered,” New Testament Studies 25 (1979): 93-102
• Charles Bigg, The Origins of Christianity, ed. by T. B. Strong (Oxford: 1909), pp. 30,48.
• F.F. Bruce, New Testament History (Garden City: 1969), p.411.
• Rudolf Bultmann (1976).
• R. Carré, `Othon et Vitellius, deux nouveaux Néron?’, in J.-M. Croisille, R. Martin and Y. Perrin (eds.), Neronia V. Néron: histoire et légende (Collection Latomus, 247; Brussels: 1999): 152-81.
• David Chilton, Paradise Restored (Tyler, TX: 1985); and The Days of Vengeance (Ft. Worth, TX: 1987).
• William Newton Clarke, An Outline of Christian Theology (New York: 1903).
• Adela Yarbro Collins, The Combat Myth in the Book of Revelation (Harvard Theological Review; Harvard Dissertations in Religion, 9; (Missoula: 1976) ; Crisis and Catharsis: The Power of the Apocalypse (Philadelphia: 1984).
Theologians are like armpits. Every religion has at least one, and they usually stink.
quote from article:
The harlot is adorned in purple and scarlet (Revelation 17:4), which are the colors of the ritual dress of the high priest and the colors that adorn the temple (Exodus 28:5-6; 39:1-2).
There is one color that was in the ritual dress in the Old Testament that is missing in Revelation- BLUE
And the color Blue represents The Commandments- Numbers 15:38-39
A color that was to remind Israel of His Commandments..
Which seems like a very central theme of Revelation-
Because in the 13th chapter:
the beast is being worshipped(breaking the 1st Commandment)
the image is being worshipped(breaking the 2nd Commandment)
His Name is being blasphemed(breaking the 3rd Commandment)
And the mark of the beast is placed on the hand and forehead-
That is exactly the same place Israel was to have His Commandments as a sign of obedience- Deuteronomy 6:8
Then we have the next chapter, Revelation 14, which states the ‘Patience of the Saints’ is the ‘Keeping of the Commandments of God’ and faith of Jesus.
And to Worship Him who made Heaven, Earth, Sea and fountains of water..
This lawless blueless woman may have no clue what day ‘today’ is to Him who made heaven, earth the sea and the fountains of water-
this lawless blueless woman probably calls it ‘Thor’s Day’.
I am not a preterist but I think that the “little book” that John ate was his Gospel. That explains why it is different from the others.
“The author points out that there is no mention in the New Testament of the Temple in Jerusalem having been destroyed, I.e. a past event.”
This is an “argument from ignorance” fallacy.
“There is, however, many references to the event as being in the imminent future.”
Show us a single verse from Revelation that says the Temple in Jerusalem is going to be destroyed in the imminent future. (Don’t try to use the verses talking about the destruction of the entire earth, of course, since we know that hasn’t happened.)
“Why was dispensationalism not taught prior to 1830?”
I’m not here to debate dispensationalism, please stay on topic.
“Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Catholic did not teach it; they are preterist...”
It matters not if all the denominations in the world decided to hold to a false doctrine; the doctrine would still be false. Preterism is a recent invention that was never held by any Christian church for well over a millenia, so it would certainly be alien to the apostles who are our standard for Christian belief.
I’ll have to look into that list. My suspicion, though, is that they are going to turn out to be preterists with an agenda to advance preterism, rather than scholars engaging in an objective study of the evidence.
Exactly. John was not on Patmos until 90 ad. Not before.
In Revelation, immediately after John eats the “little book”, he is told by the angel who carried it that he must “prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings”.
The use of that word “again”, and the context of this being something that John must do in the future leads me to think that if the “little book” is any book of the New Testament, it would Revelation itself. “Again” implies he had prophesied already to many peoples in the past, which could refer to writing prophecies in a previous gospel, or simple prophesying as part of his evangelical mission prior to his exile.
Also, Revelation is the only book in the NT that is composed almost entirely of prophecy like the writings of the OT prophets. After John had this vision, in which he was given a book and told he must prophesy again, he wrote THIS book of prophecy...
OK, well it appears we will be able to ask him about this shortly. MARANATHA! ;-)
ITS CENTRAL THEME ILLUMINATED
“Its” not “it’s.”
Are the other commentators who say that John was exiled during Domitian's reign perhaps just retrojecting this on the basis of Irenaeus' comment?
Some sources say that John was forced to work in the mines on Patmos when he was in exile. That doesn't support the late dating, because John would have been an old and infirm man by the AD 90s.
And the Syriac commentaries on Revelation say flatly that it was written during the reign of Nero, as does Epiphanius.
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