2. You seem to be interpreting "prayer" to exclusively mean "worship", which is a common source of misunderstanding between Catholics and Protestants. "Prayer" in general in older English and even current dictionary English means to entreat, to implore, from a root word for "to ask", i.e. to ask a favor. There are plenty of examples of prayers in this sense in both Jewish and Christian Scripture. For example, Paul frequently prays (in this sense) for his readers to pray for him. Examples include Romans 15:30-31, Colossians 4:3-4, and 2 Thessalonians 3:1.
3. See Revelation 5:8 and 8:3. And why are you arbitrarily choosing a 100 AD cutoff date when you're relying on writers from after that period for your manuscripts of Scripture and your information about what was going on before 100 AD? How do you explain the fact that Catholic Marian doctrine is already prevalent in 2nd-century Church Fathers with direct lineage from the Apostles such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus?
4. No command, but again, there are requests and commands to pray for each other, and the practice of specifically praying to departed saints is referred to in Revelation and is universal throughout the early Church. Moreover, no prohibition to pray to a departed saint exists before the 16th century. This prohibition is one of several novel, un-Biblical, unprecedented doctrines to emerge from the radical wing of the Reformation.
5. In addition to Revelation: "He is not the God the dead, but the living." "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses. . ." And there is no teaching in Scripture that saints can't hear a prayer from earth.
6. See above, for starters.
...History.
2. You seem to be interpreting "prayer" to exclusively mean "worship", which is a common source of misunderstanding between Catholics and Protestants.
...No. I understand the difference. I didn't say anything about worship. Though that happens too.
3. See Revelation 5:8 and 8:3.
...Nothing there says anyone prayed to a saint.
And why are you arbitrarily choosing a 100 AD cutoff date
...Apostles were alive then. If it was Apostle's teaching, they would have taught it. Mind the gaps.
How do you explain the fact that Catholic Marian doctrine is already prevalent in 2nd-century Church Fathers with direct lineage from the Apostles such as Justin Martyr d Irenaeus?
...There is nothing about lineage that equates to truth. As said in my OP, by 200, (and in fact earlier, according to Scripture), heresy was infiltrating the Church. Syncretic Paganism accelerated under Rome.
4. No command, but again, there are requests and commands to pray for each other,
...Never in regards to departed saints or demigods.
and the practice of specifically praying to departed saints is referred to in Revelation
...This passage never says anyone ever prayed to a departed saint. Simply quote it and you will see.
and is universal throughout the early Church.
...It is not, unless you redefine what "early church" means.
Moreover, no prohibition to pray to a departed saint exists before the 16th century.
...This is (seemingly) the last bastion of those who flee truth. It is usually offered because the person has cherished idols they wish to preserve.
5. In addition to Revelation: "He is not the God the dead, but the living."
...Living in another existence does not equal being able to hear or communicate with you.
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses. . ."
...A reference to the whole chapter that tells the story of faith.
And there is no teaching in Scripture that saints can't hear a prayer from earth.
...The last bastion of those who flee truth is to make it up out of whole cloth or no cloth.
6. See above, for starters.
...Ended quickly, since you did not refute the observations in my OP. I do appreciate that you posted a discussion.
Jesus had the perfect opportunity to state, or at least foreshadow, that Rome would play a role in Christian worship. As soon as she realized Jesus was a prophet, the woman at the well explicitly asked him about the proper location to worship. Jesus’ answer clearly indicates that physical location is no longer a factor:
John 4:
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
Wrong. The issue is not communication in this realm, but that of praying to created beings in Heaven, which nowhere exampled or taught, despite the Holy Spirit choosing to record approx. 200 prayers in Scripture. A
And despite prayer being a most basic and common practice.
And despite the Holy Spirit being faithful to record supplication by pagans to created beings in the spiritual realm.
And despite there always being plenty of created beings in Heaven to pray to.
And only God is shown able to hear all prayer from Heaven, whereas communication btwn created beings in Heaven and in earth required both to somehow be present in the same realm.
See Revelation 5:8 and 8:3.
Angels and elders offering up prayers before the judgments of the last days in memorial (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) is not a continuous postal service, and does not constitute praying to them, or the ability to hear all prayer from Heaven, which is unique to God.
And why are you arbitrarily choosing a 100 AD cutoff date when you're relying on writers from after that period for your manuscripts of Scripture and your information about what was going on before 100 AD?
Because all Scripture was written by that time.
No command, but again, there are requests and commands to pray for each other,
Which simply is not that of praying to created beings in Heaven, which you can only wish was in Scripture,c part from pagans doing it.
and the practice of specifically praying to departed saints is referred to in Revelation and is universal throughout the early Church.
Wrong. There are zero examples of the practice of specifically praying to departed saints in Revelation or anywhere else in Scripture. And the progressive contrasts btwn the NT church and the church of the 2 century onward testifies to its declension, and is not the standard. Wholly inspired Scripture is.
In addition to Revelation: "He is not the God the dead, but the living." "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses. . ." And there is no teaching in Scripture that saints can't hear a prayer from earth.
None of this teaches praying to created beings in Heaven, or that they can hear all prayer. Just admit it does not rest upon the weight of of Scriptural substantiation, but is a later development of tradition. As with purgatory and other Catholic distinctives which are simply not manifest in the record of the NT church, and contrary to it.
And French historian Le Goff finds:
This was an innovation, as Salomon Reinach nicely observes: "Pagans prayed to the dead, Christians prayed for the dead." "It then becomes clear that at the time of Judas Maccabeus--around 170 s.c., a surprisingly innovative period prayer for the dead was not practiced, but that a century later it was practiced by certain Jews". (The Birth of Purgatory By Jacques Le Goff. pp. 45)