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Is Christianity Just Wishful Thinking?
Depths of Pentecost ^ | May 5, 2018 | Philip Cottraux

Posted on 05/06/2018 1:49:30 PM PDT by pcottraux

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To: mjp

It is not for God to live within our fantasy, but for us to live within His reality.


41 posted on 05/06/2018 8:05:04 PM PDT by Bellflower (Who dares believe Jesus. He says absolutely amazing things, which few dare consider.)
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To: tired&retired

But did he have the mind to see the person of God?

I once read that one of Freud’s regrets later in life was not having pursued the occult. This doesn’t sound like he found God.


42 posted on 05/06/2018 8:22:17 PM PDT by reasonisfaith ("...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians))
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To: editor-surveyor; ealgeone; metmom; boatbums

As Jeremiah told us, “christianity” is the collection of “inherited lies wherein there is no profit.”

The big one is “Saved by Grace.”

The word says we are saved by our faith, and it is by the grace of Yehova that we are led to that faith.

***

No, Ed. The Word says that we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith, not the other way around.

Ephesians 2 is very clear and cannot be read any other way. Anyone who says otherwise is contradicting the Word of God.


43 posted on 05/06/2018 8:34:33 PM PDT by Luircin
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To: Luircin

.
No, you are completely misreading the verse!

And all the other writings of the apostles have to agree, which they do with my statement.

Deliberate twisting of one single verse in Ephesians is the oddball out. Hebrews 4 absoloutely demolishes your try at buying the lie.


44 posted on 05/06/2018 9:08:04 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

Nuh-uh, Ed. Wrong.

I’ve read the Greek. I’ve read the rest of the New Testament. I’ve read the book of Hebrews too—the WHOLE thing, not just the bits that Rood cherry-picked out of the English.

I’ve even gone all the way back to the oldest manuscripts we have from 200 AD, and yes, it’s salvation by grace there too.

It’s saved by grace. Period. No works, no ‘saved by Torah,’ no ‘saved by obedience.’ Salvation by grace. End of story. Period. Reject that and you reject all of Scripture.


45 posted on 05/06/2018 9:13:49 PM PDT by Luircin
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To: pcottraux

239. The Hound of Heaven
By Francis Thompson (1859–1907)

I FLED Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears
I hid from Him, and under running laughter. 5
Up vistaed hopes I sped;
And shot, precipitated,
Adown Titanic glooms of chasmèd fears,
From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
But with unhurrying chase, 10
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
They beat—and a Voice beat
More instant than the Feet—
‘All things betray thee, who betrayest Me.’ 15

I pleaded, outlaw-wise,
By many a hearted casement, curtained red,
Trellised with intertwining charities;
(For, though I knew His love Who followèd,
Yet was I sore adread 20
Lest, having Him, I must have naught beside).
But, if one little casement parted wide,
The gust of His approach would clash it to.
Fear wist not to evade, as Love wist to pursue.
Across the margent of the world I fled, 25
And troubled the gold gateways of the stars,
Smiting for shelter on their clangèd bars;
Fretted to dulcet jars
And silvern chatter the pale ports o’ the moon.
I said to Dawn: Be sudden—to Eve: Be soon; 30
With thy young skiey blossoms heap me over
From this tremendous Lover—
Float thy vague veil about me, lest He see!
I tempted all His servitors, but to find
My own betrayal in their constancy, 35
In faith to Him their fickleness to me,
Their traitorous trueness, and their loyal deceit.
To all swift things for swiftness did I sue;
Clung to the whistling mane of every wind.
But whether they swept, smoothly fleet, 40
The long savannahs of the blue;
Or whether, Thunder-driven,
They clanged his chariot ’thwart a heaven,
Plashy with flying lightnings round the spurn o’ their feet:—
Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue. 45
Still with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
Came on the following Feet,
And a Voice above their beat— 50
‘Naught shelters thee, who wilt not shelter Me.’

I sought no more that after which I strayed
In face of man or maid;
But still within the little children’s eyes
Seems something, something that replies, 55
They at least are for me, surely for me!
I turned me to them very wistfully;
But just as their young eyes grew sudden fair
With dawning answers there,
Their angel plucked them from me by the hair. 60
‘Come then, ye other children, Nature’s—share
With me’ (said I) ‘your delicate fellowship;
Let me greet you lip to lip,
Let me twine with you caresses,
Wantoning 65
With our Lady-Mother’s vagrant tresses,
Banqueting
With her in her wind-walled palace,
Underneath her azured daïs,
Quaffing, as your taintless way is, 70
From a chalice
Lucent-weeping out of the dayspring.’
So it was done:
I in their delicate fellowship was one—
Drew the bolt of Nature’s secrecies. 75
I knew all the swift importings
On the wilful face of skies;
I knew how the clouds arise
Spumèd of the wild sea-snortings;
All that’s born or dies 80
Rose and drooped with; made them shapers
Of mine own moods, or wailful or divine;
With them joyed and was bereaven.
I was heavy with the even,
When she lit her glimmering tapers 85
Round the day’s dead sanctities.
I laughed in the morning’s eyes.
I triumphed and I saddened with all weather,
Heaven and I wept together,
And its sweet tears were salt with mortal mine; 90
Against the red throb of its sunset-heart
I laid my own to beat,
And share commingling heat;
But not by that, by that, was eased my human smart.
In vain my tears were wet on Heaven’s grey cheek. 95
For ah! we know not what each other says,
These things and I; in sound I speak—
Their sound is but their stir, they speak by silences.
Nature, poor stepdame, cannot slake my drouth;
Let her, if she would owe me, 100
Drop yon blue bosom-veil of sky, and show me
The breasts o’ her tenderness:
Never did any milk of hers once bless
My thirsting mouth.
Nigh and nigh draws the chase, 105
With unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy;
And past those noisèd Feet
A voice comes yet more fleet—
‘Lo! naught contents thee, who content’st not Me!’ 110
Naked I wait Thy love’s uplifted stroke!
My harness piece by piece Thou hast hewn from me,
And smitten me to my knee;
I am defenceless utterly.
I slept, methinks, and woke, 115
And, slowly gazing, find me stripped in sleep.
In the rash lustihead of my young powers,
I shook the pillaring hours
And pulled my life upon me; grimed with smears,
I stand amid the dust o’ the mounded years— 120
My mangled youth lies dead beneath the heap.
My days have crackled and gone up in smoke,
Have puffed and burst as sun-starts on a stream.
Yea, faileth now even dream
The dreamer, and the lute the lutanist; 125
Even the linked fantasies, in whose blossomy twist
I swung the earth a trinket at my wrist,
Are yielding; cords of all too weak account
For earth with heavy griefs so overplussed.
Ah! is Thy love indeed 130
A weed, albeit an amaranthine weed,
Suffering no flowers except its own to mount?
Ah! must—
Designer infinite!—
Ah! must Thou char the wood ere Thou canst limn with it? 135
My freshness spent its wavering shower i’ the dust;
And now my heart is as a broken fount,
Wherein tear-drippings stagnate, spilt down ever
From the dank thoughts that shiver
Upon the sighful branches of my mind. 140
Such is; what is to be?
The pulp so bitter, how shall taste the rind?
I dimly guess what Time in mists confounds;
Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds
From the hid battlements of Eternity; 145
Those shaken mists a space unsettle, then
Round the half-glimpsèd turrets slowly wash again.
But not ere him who summoneth
I first have seen, enwound
With glooming robes purpureal, cypress-crowned; 150
His name I know, and what his trumpet saith.
Whether man’s heart or life it be which yields
Thee harvest, must Thy harvest-fields
Be dunged with rotten death?

Now of that long pursuit 155
Comes on at hand the bruit;
That Voice is round me like a bursting sea:
‘And is thy earth so marred,
Shattered in shard on shard?
Lo, all things fly thee, for thou fliest Me! 160
Strange, piteous, futile thing!
Wherefore should any set thee love apart?
Seeing none but I makes much of naught’ (He said),
‘And human love needs human meriting:
How hast thou merited— 165
Of all man’s clotted clay the dingiest clot?
Alack, thou knowest not
How little worthy of any love thou art!
Whom wilt thou find to love ignoble thee,
Save Me, save only Me? 170
All which I took from thee I did but take,
Not for thy harms,
But just that thou might’st seek it in My arms.
All which thy child’s mistake
Fancies as lost, I have stored for thee at home: 175
Rise, clasp My hand, and come!’
Halts by me that footfall:
Is my gloom, after all,
Shade of His hand, outstretched caressingly?
‘Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest, 180
I am He Whom thou seekest!
Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest Me.’


46 posted on 05/06/2018 10:12:27 PM PDT by rickyc
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To: Luircin
I think the "inherited lies wherein there is no profit" are the ones that false prophets and fake rabbis have tried to pass off as truth ever since the true gospel of salvation BY grace THROUGH faith has been preached.

Every religion in the world has us DOING something to merit, earn, deserve or work for heaven, for Nirvana, for Happy Hunting Grounds, etc. ONLY genuine Christianity teaches we CANNOT earn or merit or deserve or work for our salvation. That is because it is by the grace of God and NOT we ourselves, not by works lest any should boast. A lot of braggarts out there, the proudly pious who don't like hearing that but it IS the truth. Praise God for His amazing grace!

47 posted on 05/06/2018 11:04:50 PM PDT by boatbums (The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation, but washes you upon the Rock of Ages.)
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To: Luircin

.
Face reality, the Greek is a translation done by Pharisees.

The original is Hebrew in every NT book.

Even in the Greek, salvation in every case is through the righteousness of Yehova resulting from willing obedience to the commandments of the Father.

The grace will be applied to those that endure in that gift of righteousness to the end.

Do not return to your vomit like a dog, but be determined to endure. (2Peter)

Do not be fooled by the sweet lies.


48 posted on 05/07/2018 9:17:04 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

I suppose you have proof for your ‘original Hebrew’ claim, Ed? Perhaps an original document from pre 200 AD?

No? That’s too bad.

If there’s anyone lying, it’s Michael Rood lying to you.


49 posted on 05/07/2018 10:46:49 AM PDT by Luircin
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To: editor-surveyor

And believe me, I gave Rood’s stuff a chance with an open mind.

But the guy can’t even get God’s name right. Your ‘Yehova’ name is a bad transliteration from the Hebrew to Latin translation of the Old Testament. The Tetragrammaton, YHVH, had the vowel symbols for ‘Adonai’ put into it because when the vowel smybols were added, they didn’t want to speak the name of God, and so put that in as a reminder.

To put it bluntly, Rood’s teachings, upon being tested, are absolutely contradictory to the Word of God AND historical evidence AND linguistic evidence.

Sorry, but there’s no way ever that I’m believing anything he says!


50 posted on 05/07/2018 11:32:40 AM PDT by Luircin
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To: editor-surveyor; Luircin
Even in the Greek, salvation in every case is through the righteousness of Yehova resulting from willing obedience to the commandments of the Father.

The first part of your sentence is correct - salvation is through the righteousness of God which is IMPUTED to us by His grace THROUGH faith. See Romans 4.

The last part of your comment is a lie from the pit of hell. When salvation is conditioned upon "obedience to the commandments of the Father", it is saying one must merit it by his/her works of righteousness and Scripture is quite clear it is NOT by our works that we are saved. I pray you escape the clutches of the accursed gospel that condemns and can never save.

    Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus replied, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” (John 6:28,29)

51 posted on 05/07/2018 11:39:04 AM PDT by boatbums (The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation, but washes you upon the Rock of Ages.)
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To: pcottraux; newgeezer
To sum it up, belief in God can be explained as an evolutionary trait that emerges from our inner desire to follow a strong alpha male.

This kind of BS makes The Infinity Wars movie look like a documentary.

52 posted on 05/07/2018 11:40:10 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (...the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light...)
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To: Nifster
Allowing a cocain addicted adulterer to ever effect ones faith is a sad state for any human

Imagine if Freud had been tempted by free unlimited internet porn. We'd never have heard of him.

53 posted on 05/07/2018 11:47:07 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (...the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light...)
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To: DungeonMaster

Well, I didn’t say I agreed with it...


54 posted on 05/07/2018 1:16:27 PM PDT by pcottraux ( depthsofpentecost.com)
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To: Nifster
Allowing a cocain addicted adulterer to ever effect ones faith is a sad state for any human

People said similar things in my critique of Stephen Hawking. I tend to look at the content of what people say moreso than their personal lives. Not that I don't think low moral character has any affect on the value of their ideas, I just tend to be uninterested in what they were like personally while researching.

The notable exception is Thomas Jefferson, of course. People have shown me his anti-Christian or pro-democracy quotes, and I respond: "This clown knocked up his slave girl! Who cares what he thinks?"

55 posted on 05/07/2018 1:20:26 PM PDT by pcottraux ( depthsofpentecost.com)
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To: Vision
No.

I could have summed it up this way, but would have been my shortest blog...

56 posted on 05/07/2018 1:21:59 PM PDT by pcottraux ( depthsofpentecost.com)
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To: reasonisfaith
Freud’s ideology was founded on his premise that God doesn’t exist. From this flawed premise proceeded all his ideas about religion.

Actually, all atheists do this all the time. It's the entire flawed premise of "The God Delusion," "The End of Faith," and almost every argument any atheist has challenged me with. And sure enough, it goes back as far as Freud at least. It's a fascinating to see this appearing over and over again, from people who claim to be "free thinkers."

57 posted on 05/07/2018 1:27:45 PM PDT by pcottraux ( depthsofpentecost.com)
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To: boatbums
Utopia then is either an ideal place of perfection or an ideal place that can never possibly exist.

Absolutely true, and also why I'm not a humanist. Even if I were an atheist, I would reject utopianist nonsense.

58 posted on 05/07/2018 1:32:26 PM PDT by pcottraux ( depthsofpentecost.com)
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To: MortMan; mjp
Each individual needs to ask themselves whether the risk of it being true is worth taking...

I'm guilty of sometimes being too sympathetic towards other points-of-view. Always trying to get into the heads of people I don't agree with, be they Muslims, atheists, leftists...

There are certain absolutes that I simply can't fathom. And that point is one of them. I don't like the "what if you're wrong" argument, but you could rephrase it to "what are the ODDS that you're wrong, and what are the consequences?" The consequences aren't even remotely worth it!

The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus is a fact of history.There is no wishful thinking about it.

And this is why! Each Biblical event that fits into factual history increases the odds that Christianity is the truth, which makes heaven and hell real. People who don't want to accept that are playing a dangerous game. While atheists claim there's no evidence for God, I present them with the historical evidence for Christianity, and they usually laugh and say I'm crazy. It's disturbing for me to think how they're playing Russian roulette with eternity.

59 posted on 05/07/2018 1:39:05 PM PDT by pcottraux ( depthsofpentecost.com)
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To: metmom
Mere Christianity is a fantastic book.

Agreed. It's interesting to take atheists from the time period and compare them to what CS Lewis wrote in response. The atheist vs theist debate hasn't really changed or advanced as much as people think in the last century.

60 posted on 05/07/2018 1:41:15 PM PDT by pcottraux ( depthsofpentecost.com)
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