Posted on 07/13/2018 5:17:22 PM PDT by metmom
Salvation is not about ‘teachings’....it's about the ‘finished work’ of Christ on behalf of the believer. If it were based on teachings none of us could even possibly be guiltless....for all have sinned and fallen ‘short’ of the glory of God...there are none righteous except for the an Christ Jesus. It is His sacrifice death burial and Resurrection which saves us....not ours.
Oh come ON.
I tried to write a response that we both could agree on.
YOU had to start turning it into another Protestant-bashing spree.
But if you insist, here’s my reply. #triggerwarning
Unless Rome starts obeying the Apostle Paul and starts teaching salvation by grace through faith and not by works, Roman Catholicism is a devilish mockery of the true Christian faith.
All the differences between Protestant denominations are as nothing compared to Rome’s eager embrace of the literally satanic lie that you can save yourself through your works.
And until Rome stops preaching that filth, there is NO argument that you can make that Rome is ANY kind of church, much less the so-called one true anything, and ALL your arguments are nothing more than shallow sophistry.
“Christ’s church” teaches what Jesus and the Apostles taught about salvation.
Rome teaches the opposite of what Jesus and the Apostles taught about salvation.
Therefore, Rome is NOT Christ’s church.
QED.
Yes, Jesus during His life healed the sick and forgave sins as Jesus determined that they sought forgiveness and had faith in Jesus.
Yet Jesus delegated to the Apostles and their successors: to preach and baptize and to forgive sins.
So you and I need to follow the teachings of Jesus to be saved. We shouldn’t only rely on what he did for others, as we are individually judged at the time of our death.
Baptism is the essential acceptance of God’s sacrifice and promise of salvation. Confession to a Catholic priest remits sins after Baptism. Jesus told us that the Eucharist is essential to our spiritual lives and necessary for salvation and with the graces we receive from the sacraments, we grow in our spiritual lives to become one in Christ.
Yes, salvation and opening the gates of Heaven was Christ’s sacrifice and His gifts to mankind. Jesus does not force salvation on anyone. We must accept it through Baptism (it is in the Bible) and acceptance of the teachings of Jesus.
If you read John chapter 6, you will see that many did not accept eating the Body and Blood of Jesus that Jesus told us was essential for salvation.
God’s peace be with you and the Truth.
God is more than adequate as the arbiter. Those who study Scripture independent of His guidance sin already.
Christ never placed a man made ‘church’ as an object of worship. Come out of her my people. Revelation names 7 churches and what their doctrines are... only two of the seven were without ‘sin’.
There are many people who have never been introduced to the New Testament, who still exercise belief through faith in the Son of God who receive salvation. All the Old Testament saints and many missionary evangelists who begin their ministry through the Old Testament manifest believers who accept Christ prior to study of the New Testament. Same person, Christ as the Perfect Sacrifice, is through whom we all have access to the Father.
Not to God the Father. The only mediator between God the Father and the believer is God the Son. One might seek recompense for our sins amongst whom we have caused harm by our sin.
Remission of sin by God is turning away from sin and facing back to God, then confessing our sins to God the Father, through faith in what Christ provided on the Cross, the Perfect Sacrifice, and expiation for ALL human sin, past, present, and future,...this is the method to return to fellowship with God on His grounds.
Confession to a Roman Catholic Priest is NOT confession to God the Father, but is a counterfeit substitute for faith in what Christ provided at the Cross. RCC confession through a RCC priest is generally AntiChristian.
This is manifest by a large number of Roman Catholics who adamently attend their confessionals, but continue to wallow in bitterness and spiritual degeneration by never returning to God through faith in Christ, but turn instead to a counterfeit substitute system of blasphemy, pretending to religiously be associated with Christ, but performing all sorts of blasphemous practice.
Agreed with everything you wrote there.
Having said that, confessing your sins to a minister or pastor, or to one another, and then hearing the assurance of salvation and forgiveness from that other through the Word of God is healthy for the Christian life.
Your comment: “I tried to write a response that we both could agree on.
YOU had to start turning it into another Protestant-bashing spree.”
I am interested in the Truth, not agreeing with your false understanding of Catholic doctrine. I did not bash, but stated facts. You seem to be the one mocking, name calling and misrepresenting the teachings of Jesus and His Church.
Catholic doctrine does not state that salvation is earned by our works, on the contrary is is a free gift of God that we can either accept through Baptism having Faith and love in God (and not dying in mortal sin) or reject it. The Church encourages us to do works of Mercy as Christ did. Hopefully doing ‘good works” will lead us into a holy life following God’s will and become closer to Christ.
Perhaps you should read and understand James chapter 2.
Faith and Works.* 14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?i 15If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?j 17So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
“You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.”
St Paul when he refers to works, means works of the Mosaic law.
If you are going to quote Catholic Church doctrine, then you should really understand it and state it correctly so that you do not blaspheme.
May you truly find God’s Truth.
Agreed,..and there may be situations in attempting to correct damages caused by sin to work together amongst one another to effect proper action, but again only through faith in Christ.
I point out the simple things.
Consider the Garden of Eden. God forbade Adam and Eve from eating something. What was it?
It was the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.
He expressedly tells us this. It is an important point.
He also didn’t say it would kill them. He said they would surely die if we ate from it.
Death is a state of existence involving separation.
Due to Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, all humans now genetically have the ability to know good and evil. All humans have been condemned for sin, prior to salvation.
This is what led all humans to death and what leads us to separation from Him when we sin.
We are easily tempted to confuse our discernment of good and evil with a fellowship with God. It isn’t.
Sin is missing the mark.
What mark? The Plan of God for each and every one of us.
When we focus on good and evil, vice our obedience to His Plan, an avoidance of not performing His Plan, i.e. avoiding sin, we substitute our knowledge for His Plan. We fall into arrogance, and out of fellowship with God through faith in Christ.
We receive salvation upon accepting Him through faith in Christ at the Divine Call, but our sanctification continues to repair our scarred souls away from the side-effects of missing the mark in our thinking.
There are so many believers in the RCC, but their system fails to effect the basics of continuing sanctification and throw many a stumbling block in the path of believers. Their worldly power structures continue to degenerate spiritually and for these reasons I not only disassociate with them, I also find them leading unbelievers into even more heinous blasphemous activity.
Has Rome started teaching that by grace you are saved through faith and not by works, so that no man may boast?
No? They pay lip service to the direct words of the Apostle while still teaching the exact opposite?
Why on earth should I believe anything you have to say if you can’t get one of the plainest, simplest statements of all of the Word of God correct?
Oh, and James 2? Either you’re telling me that James contradicts both Paul and Jesus, or you have no idea what Paul and Jesus actually say. Oh, and John too.
Then again, Catholics tend to accuse Protestants of all kinds of evil without paying any attention to what we actually believe. So I’ll spare you the commentary on James until I have a promise that you’ll actually read what I write.
Your comment: “Has Rome started teaching that by grace you are saved through faith and not by works, so that no man may boast?
No? They pay lip service to the direct words of the Apostle while still teaching the exact opposite?”
You make false statements without any documentation or understanding of Catholic teaching.
Why don’t you look it up in the Catholic Catechism? It is free online through the US Bishops website.
Jesus delegated to the Apostles and successors - Go Preach and Baptize and forgiveness of sins.
Show me where Jesus stated that sins are forgiven directly?
So how does one get that direct interpretation from God when He is in Heaven?
It seems to me that it is still personal opinion or interpretation by individuals. So when individuals differ and are wrong, how does one understand the Truth?
I’ve read the Catholic catechism, especially on justification. I’m simply much less accepting of what it claims than you are, and far snarkier about what contradicts Scripture. I’m happy to agree with what it gets right, which is a lot, but what it gets right never comes up on these threads.
But the Catholic catechism on justification remains the exact opposite of what Paul wrote, despite the lip service (you get the start through grace and have to work for the rest? Really?), and changes the definition of grace halfway through anyways, claiming it’s something you have to work to get instead of a free gift.
My turn. Have you read the Lutheran Confessions? Specifically, what do we teach about good works? Because you seem to claim that we’re antinomian.
“Christ never placed a man made ‘church’ as an object of worship.”
You are right. God is the object of worship by the members of the Church as the Body of Christ as they pray at Mass and other liturgical services.
Jesus delegated to the Apostles and their successors and asked them to GO Preach and Baptize and forgive sins through the Catholic Church that he founded and has been protected by the Holy Spirit.
There are many man-made churches that were formed by men, such as Luther and others that agree and preach some of Christ’s teachings, but do not accept other teachings.
Yes. The Catholic Church has sinners (even among the leaders), just like Christ during His life and ministry dealt with the sick and sinners to help them gain eternal life. The Catholic Church mission is to help us gain eternal life with God. Some will make it and others may not. Those that die in mortal(major)sin will not see heaven, while those who die with venial (minor) sins will spend time in Purgatory and eventually reach Heaven.
Pray for those in Purgatory.
The ‘church’ is NOT the “Body of Christ.”
The ‘church’ is a man made contra-biblical arm of the adversary.
Yeshua’s eternal Kehilla is the body.
It began at creation, and will continue timelessly.
Colossians 2:
[1] For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
[2] That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
[3] In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
[4] And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
[5] For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
[6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ.
Why are you allowing a man, rather than the body, to judge and deprive you?
Your comment: “I’ve read the Catholic catechism, especially on justification. I’m simply much less accepting of what it claims than you are, and far snarkier about what contradicts Scripture.”
Then show me where the Catholic Church requires works for salvation and differs from the Bible?
The Council of Trent states: “And we are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (Decree on Justification 8).
We accept our faith in God at Baptism, and need to grow spiritually through our “goods works” of mercy (as jesus showed us) that helps us follow God’s will and grow closer to Christ.
As I said earlier, St Paul ‘s works refers to the works for Mosaic law. Even Jesus indicated to the Apostles not to follow the example of the Pharisees “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites”.
Paul is probably using “works” and “boasting” here as he does in Romans, of Jews boasting before Gentiles of having privilege with God due to their keeping the Mosaic Law. He says we are not saved in that manner, but by faith—meaning faith in Christ—so no one, either Jew or Gentile, can boast of having a more privileged position with God. We are all saved on the same basis—through faith in Christ and union in his body, the Church.
“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10). The sense of what Paul is saying is: “God has raised up both of us—Jews and Gentiles—to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, for we received initial salvation as a gift. We obtained it by faith in Christ (which itself is a gift from God), not by works of obedience to the Mosaic Law—so neither Jew or Gentile can boast over the other of having privilege with God. Instead, we Christians are the result of God’s work, for he created us anew in the body of Christ so that we might do good works—the kind of works we should be concerned about—for God intended ahead of time for us to do them” (paraphrase of Eph. 2:6–10).
No, I have not read the Lutheran Confession. I disagree with Luther’s basic principles of Faith alone and Scripture alone. I am sure that most Lutherans are good moral people, but following an errant understanding of the teachings of Jesus and His Church. I hope that we all reach Heaven with God, but the path is narrow and difficult and based on my observations on how our world works, many will not make it.
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