Posted on 08/02/2018 6:56:31 AM PDT by amessenger4god
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel" (Heb. 12:22-24, NIV).
Though some believe there will be a progressive blurring of the distinction between Israel and the church in the Millennium and eternal state, the biblical evidence seems to indicate that each group of saints will retain its identity (cf. Heb. 12:22-24). This can be inferred also from the fact that the names of the twelve tribes of Israel will be inscribed on the gates of the heavenly city and the names of the twelve apostles of the church will be inscribed on the city's foundation (Rev. 21:12, 14)...[i]n short, in the eternal kingdom there will be one family of God with a diversity of members" (Donald K. Campbell, "The Church in God's Prophetic Program," from Essays in Honor of J. Dwight Pentecost, 160-61).
Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's household, as a testimony to what would be said in the future. But Christ was faithful as a Son over his household. And we are that household..." (Heb. 3:5-6, CSB, emphasis mine).
...the husband is head of the wife as also Christ is head of the church. He is the Savior of the body...Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her to make her holy...to present the church to Himself in splendor without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but holy and blameless...we are members of His body...[t]his mystery is profound, but I am talking about Christ and the church" (Eph. 5:23, 25-27, 30, 32, HCSB, emphasis mine).
Zion will be enriched in that day by this acquisition of new citizens. All nations in that day will look to Zion as the 'mother city.' God's writing their names in a register figuratively describes His ensuring them a place in Zion" (Allen P. Ross, "Psalms," in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures, 857).
Mother Zion!' A man will say. And [that] man was born in her. The Most High has established her foundation" (my translation, from Rahlfs and Hanhart, eds., Septuaguinta: SESB edition).
...the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother" (Gal. 4:26, ESV, emphasis mine).
By faith he [Abraham] stayed as a foreigner in the land of promise, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, co-heirs of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Heb. 11:9-10, HCSB, emphasis mine).
I also saw the Holy City, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband..." (Rev. 21:2, HCSB).
All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And I will also write on them my new name" (Rev. 3:12, NLT, emphasis mine).
Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" (NET, emphasis mine).
The Jewish people are God’s “Chosen”.
Always have been, and always will be.
As a christian gentile, I have no problem with that.
I think the problem stems from what that word means, and more accurately, what it does NOT mean.
We are all created equal... Jew and gentile alike.
We should not make comparisons on God’s treatment or favor based upon birthrights. Doing so belittle’s God’s character.
The Jew’s understanding of what it means to be God’s chosen should NOT be used as a source of pride for them, nor should it be used by the gentiles to harbor insecurities or jealous and judgmental conclusions.
Knowing what I know about what the Jewish nation is facing very soon, I would NOT want to be an orthadox jew right now.
God made promises to them which He is going to keep... now and forever. I thank God for them. It is through them that my salvation came.
The Jews were called God’s chosen people because he chose them to bring forth the Messiah, Jesus Christ. After Jesus died for all of us, we too became God’s chosen people.
“Israel” today refers to the Church.
You’ve begun with a well-done exposition of the relationship between Israel and the Church, but it is inconsistent with the advocacy of the child of Revelation 12 symbolizing the Church (and rapture).
First, the Heavenly City you mentioned is called the mother of the Church:
Galatians 4:26
But the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
The woman does indeed represent Israel. But this is not the spiritual Israel. It is the nation of Israel, still vulnerable to the attacks of Satan.
Christ came through national Israel. He was the seed of David. He was a citizen of Israel and rightful heir to the throne.
The Church did not descend from physical Israel. The Church is comprised of many nations, independent of Israel and traceable back to the division of nations God implemented at Babel.
The Church is nowhere pictured as a baby so as to support this interpretation. The Church is a “she”. She is a woman—the bride of Christ. She is NOT a “male child”. The commentators you cited attempt to attribute this symbol to Christ AND the Church, as His body. But this confounds the mystery of the marriage of Christ to the Church, by which we are, as in a marriage covenant, “one flesh”. Did you know that the web page you cited not only argues for the Revelation 12 child to symbolize the Church but also that the 2017 sign meant the Church was about to be raptured? This whole argument seems forced in order to fit it into an eschatological paradigm. Even if it were correct, it is not derived from an exegetical approach to interpreting the passage. Relying on “proof texts” which are difficult to interpret is not the mark of good Biblical scholarship.
Early Church fathers wrote about the anti-Christ and clearly expected the Church to encounter him. They treated the prophecies regarding anti-Christ as warnings rather than as a subject matter of mere academic interest. This is very problematic for those who wish to cite Biblical scholars in their various interpretations of these symbols.
It is similarly troubling to see “Church of the Firstborn” being extrapolated into some meaning which is not justified by the text alone. You’ve said yourself this is a title of Christ. Why would this phrase be assumed to mean that the Church is the Firstborn? Why not assume its more likely meaning of being the Church of Christ who is the Firstborn?
Similarly, passages referring to “first-fruits” may be misapplied to fit the pre-tribulation rapture model. The passages you’ve cited describe Christ as the first-fruits from the dead.
1 Corinthians 15:20-24
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
This passages seems to make a clear distinction between the resurrection called “firstfruits” which was the resurrection of Christ, and the yet-to-be-experienced resurrection that will occur for believers when Christ returns. Interestingly, Paul describes what follows this as “The End”. Comparing other passages, we find this term most likely refers to the “Day of the Lord” which FOLLOWS the Great Tribulation. Christ explicitly said that the initial troubles of the last days was NOT The End, but rather the “beginning of sorrows”.
“Turning over a new leaf now, we arrive at chapter 4 and the newly glorified body of Christ is represented by the 24 elders...wait for it...wait for it...wearing crowns, white garments, and sitting on thrones! (see Rev. 4:4). Yep, just as the Lord had promised.”
Dispensations are certainly Biblical. But we must be careful not to force our theological understanding of dispensation upon the text at hand. Rather, we must allow the text to inform and correct our understanding of what aspects of dispensationalism and Jew / Gentile distinction are correct, and which are incorrect. Dispensationalism certainly plays a role in the understanding of God’s prophetic plans for the Church and Israel. However, there are some important distinctions to be made in applying these symbols to the chronology of the rapture:
First, we see a symbol of Christ’s final exaltation in the subsequent chapter (which is contiguous with chapter 4, and is part of the same vision). Look at how it culminates with EVERY living thing praising God and the Lamb:
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
Are we to suppose that this aspect of Christ’s glorification will be accomplished BEFORE all of the judgments which follow in the subsequent chapters?
Second, the Pauline doctrine and special revelation of the rapture he revealed is nowhere explicitly described in the book of Revelation. How can this be? Did God somehow forget this momentous event? Of course not. He must have had a reason not only for what is included, but also for what is excluded—particularly the rapture.
We know that the second coming entails many distinct events, just as the first coming did. Jesus was announced, conceived, born, grew up and learned, He ministered, He died on the cross, He rose again, and He appeared to hundreds of witnesses afterward. These events were all distinct, yet part of the first coming. Likewise, Christ’s second coming includes meeting believers in the air, planting His feet on Mt. Olivet, gathering of saints, and gathering of those who offend. These are all distinct events, but are all part of the second coming of Christ.
Attempts to resolve the various difficulties with the various explanations of the timing of Christ’s return for His bride, the Church, in relation to Daniel’s seventieth week and the related prophecies remain speculative. It is useful to attempt to understand these passages, but it is also important to not allow our speculations and anecdotal evidence to cloud our judgment. If God wanted us to know with absolute certainty, beyond any doubt or dispute, when Christ will return for the Church in relation to other events of Revelation, would He not have included a specific description of “those who are alive and remain” being “caught up” to meet Him in the air?
When we examine Revelation 6 and compare it to the Olivet discourse, we find that the sequence of events is precisely aligned. These are the “signs” Jesus gave His disciples of His imminent return (only after they occur) and of “The End” of the world or age. This return follows the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation begins in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week. The Great Tribulation is cut short by God’s direct intervention on behalf of His “elect”.
If we can agree that the Olivet discourse and Revelation 6 are describing the same unique series of events that occur prior to “The End”, then would this not suggest that the 7 trumpet judgements and the 7 bowl judgements FOLLOW the Great Tribulation and are part of this time period Christ and Paul describe as “The End”?
You’ve begun with a well-done exposition of the relationship between Israel and the Church, but it is inconsistent with the advocacy of the child of Revelation 12 symbolizing the Church (and rapture).
First, the Heavenly City you mentioned is called the mother of the Church:
Galatians 4:26
But the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
The woman does indeed represent Israel. But this is not the spiritual Israel. It is the nation of Israel, still vulnerable to the attacks of Satan.
Christ came through national Israel. He was the seed of David. He was a citizen of Israel and rightful heir to the throne.
The Church did not descend from physical Israel. The Church is comprised of many nations, independent of Israel and traceable back to the division of nations God implemented at Babel.
The Church is nowhere pictured as a baby so as to support this interpretation. The Church is a “she”. She is a woman—the bride of Christ. She is NOT a “male child”. The commentators you cited attempt to attribute this symbol to Christ AND the Church, as His body. But this confounds the mystery of the marriage of Christ to the Church, by which we are, as in a marriage covenant, “one flesh”. Did you know that the web page you cited not only argues for the Revelation 12 child to symbolize the Church but also that the 2017 sign meant the Church was about to be raptured? This whole argument seems forced in order to fit it into an eschatological paradigm. Even if it were correct, it is not derived from an exegetical approach to interpreting the passage. Relying on “proof texts” which are difficult to interpret is not the mark of good Biblical scholarship.
Early Church fathers wrote about the anti-Christ and clearly expected the Church to encounter him. They treated the prophecies regarding anti-Christ as warnings rather than as a subject matter of mere academic interest. This is very problematic for those who wish to cite Biblical scholars in their various interpretations of these symbols.
It is similarly troubling to see “Church of the Firstborn” being extrapolated into some meaning which is not justified by the text alone. You’ve said yourself this is a title of Christ. Why would this phrase be assumed to mean that the Church is the Firstborn? Why not assume its more likely meaning of being the Church of Christ who is the Firstborn?
Similarly, passages referring to “first-fruits” may be misapplied to fit the pre-tribulation rapture model. The passages you’ve cited describe Christ as the first-fruits from the dead.
1 Corinthians 15:20-24
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
This passages seems to make a clear distinction between the resurrection called “firstfruits” which was the resurrection of Christ, and the yet-to-be-experienced resurrection that will occur for believers when Christ returns. Interestingly, Paul describes what follows this as “The End”. Comparing other passages, we find this term most likely refers to the “Day of the Lord” which FOLLOWS the Great Tribulation. Christ explicitly said that the initial troubles of the last days was NOT The End, but rather the “beginning of sorrows”.
“Turning over a new leaf now, we arrive at chapter 4 and the newly glorified body of Christ is represented by the 24 elders...wait for it...wait for it...wearing crowns, white garments, and sitting on thrones! (see Rev. 4:4). Yep, just as the Lord had promised.”
Dispensations are certainly Biblical. But we must be careful not to force our theological understanding of dispensation upon the text at hand. Rather, we must allow the text to inform and correct our understanding of what aspects of dispensationalism and Jew / Gentile distinction are correct, and which are incorrect. Dispensationalism certainly plays a role in the understanding of God’s prophetic plans for the Church and Israel. However, there are some important distinctions to be made in applying these symbols to the chronology of the rapture:
First, we see a symbol of Christ’s final exaltation in the subsequent chapter (which is contiguous with chapter 4, and is part of the same vision). Look at how it culminates with EVERY living thing praising God and the Lamb:
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
Are we to suppose that this aspect of Christ’s glorification will be accomplished BEFORE all of the judgments which follow in the subsequent chapters?
Second, the Pauline doctrine and special revelation of the rapture he revealed is nowhere explicitly described in the book of Revelation. How can this be? Did God somehow forget this momentous event? Of course not. He must have had a reason not only for what is included, but also for what is excluded—particularly the rapture.
We know that the second coming entails many distinct events, just as the first coming did. Jesus was announced, conceived, born, grew up and learned, He ministered, He died on the cross, He rose again, and He appeared to hundreds of witnesses afterward. These events were all distinct, yet part of the first coming. Likewise, Christ’s second coming includes meeting believers in the air, planting His feet on Mt. Olivet, gathering of saints, and gathering of those who offend. These are all distinct events, but are all part of the second coming of Christ.
Attempts to resolve the various difficulties with the various explanations of the timing of Christ’s return for His bride, the Church, in relation to Daniel’s seventieth week and the related prophecies remain speculative. It is useful to attempt to understand these passages, but it is also important to not allow our speculations and anecdotal evidence to cloud our judgment. If God wanted us to know with absolute certainty, beyond any doubt or dispute, when Christ will return for the Church in relation to other events of Revelation, would He not have included a specific description of “those who are alive and remain” being “caught up” to meet Him in the air?
When we examine Revelation 6 and compare it to the Olivet discourse, we find that the sequence of events is precisely aligned. These are the “signs” Jesus gave His disciples of His imminent return (only after they occur) and of “The End” of the world or age. This return follows the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation begins in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week. The Great Tribulation is cut short by God’s direct intervention on behalf of His “elect”.
If we can agree that the Olivet discourse and Revelation 6 are describing the same unique series of events that occur prior to “The End”, then would this not suggest that the 7 trumpet judgements and the 7 bowl judgements FOLLOW the Great Tribulation and are part of this time period Christ and Paul describe as “The End”?
We are Christ’s bride. You take upon yourself your husbands tribal identity when you marry Him. We have become one with Christ. Jesus Christ is the lion of the tribe of Judah. Since we are the bride of Christ, we belong to the tribe of Judah, because He will always be identified as the primary member of the tribe of Judah. We may not become true members of the tribe of Judah until after the marriage feast.
Many, and even possibly most people in the Church are the gathered from the lost tribes of Israel. Many of us are Jacobs descendants. We just don’t know it, but The LORD has kept track of who we are. Many, after the tribulation, will be utterly surprised that they of Israel, and gathered back to her, with permanent residency in the land Israel. God is always keeping His promises to Abraham. In the very least many of those The LORD has chosen are children of Abraham.
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