Posted on 03/29/2020 8:34:52 PM PDT by ebb tide
I think it would be cute to see you try to explain how Fathe Pacwa is presenting Catholic doctrine inaccurately.
Having idols of created beings one kneels before, prays to, burns incense to, attributes divine capabilities, etc.....
The New Testament vs Roman Catholicism.....There is a difference.
Divine capabilities—like creation ex nihilo or forgiveness of sins?
Does Father say Saints can do those things? Does he say that statues do those things? I missed that part.
Pray tell, where does he say that?
Roman Catholicism says Mary can hear, understand and answer the prayers of all 1.3 Roman Catholics.
That role is attributed to the Holy Spirit in Romans 8:26-27 among other verses.
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Does Father say Saints can do those things? Does he say that statues do those things? I missed that part.
That apart about call no man father...we'll discuss later.
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Pray tell, where does he say that?
Don't know if he really does or not, but Roman Catholicism does. Romans try to downplay these things, but those are the facts.
Roman Catholicism says Saints and statues can create ex nihilo and forgive sins?
My seminary training must have been defective, and my courses on Catholic teaching are off.
If only you I had had you as a professor in seminary, maybe I would have understood what the Catholic Church really teaches. All those priest professors were really trying to mis-form the seminarians so that they might mis-represent Catholic teaching to all the faithful.
Only ealgeone can be trusted to proclaim infallibly what the Catholic Church teaches.
(sarcasm on??)
Did I say they could?
But since you asked regarding forgiving sins.
| The Glories of Mary | Romans 10:5-13 NASB | |
| Saint Anselm says, ‘that as it is impossible for one who is not devout to Mary, and consequently not protected by her, to be saved, so is it impossible for one who recommends himself to her, and consequently is beloved by her, to be lost.’ Saint Antoninus repeats the same thing, and almost in the same words: ‘As it is impossible for those from whom Mary turns her eyes of mercy, to be saved, so also are those towards whom she turns these eyes, and for whom she prays, necessarily saved and glorified.’ Consequently the clients of Mary will necessarily be saved. (p184) | 5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BEDISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”. |
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| But, on the other hand, Mary says in the words applied to her by the church, “He that hearkeneth to me shall not be confounded;’ that is to say, he who hearkeneth to what I say shall not be lost. On which Saint Bonaventure says, ‘O Lady, he who honours thee will be far from damnation.’ And this will still be the case, Saint Hilary observes, even should the person, during the past time have greatly offended God. ‘However great a sinner he may have been,’ says the saint, ‘if he shews himself devout to Mary he will never perish.’(p185) | 14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. |
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Bible quotes from NASB
RCC position on Mary from The Glories of Mary, translated from the Italian of St Alphonsus De; Liguori, Founder of the Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer, by A Father of the Same Congregation LONDON: Printed for the Redemptorist Fathers, St Mary’s, Clapham, Surrey; to be had of J.J. Wallwork, 42, Great Marlborough Street, Regent Street, and of all Booksellers. MDCCCLII p184-185.
https://books.google.com/books?id=7uwCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=All+power+is+given+to+thee+in+Heaven+and+on+earth,+so+that+at+the+command+of+Mary+all+obey-even+God&source=bl&ots=myZ-FaiMh7&sig=ivbaVW-mCAErqzlDyoebpOj0EJE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrmYK1rcTYAhVPtFMKHVeRBdAQ6AEIOzAG#v=twopage&q&f=false
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To this we could add the false promise of the Brown Scapular.
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Another one...this time on the omnipotence of Mary.
In the Glories of Mary the following is recorded: 'At the command of Mary all obey, even God'. Saint Bernadine fears not to utter this sentence, meaning indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. And hence Saint Anselm, addressing Mary, says, 'Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted thee to such a degree, that, by His favor, all things that are possible to Him should be possible to thee. For thy protection is omnipotent, O Mary, says Cosmas of Jerusalem. 'Yes, Mary is omnipotent,' repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; 'for the Queen, by every law, enjoys the same privileges as the King.' 'And as,' he adds, 'the power of the Son and that of the Mother is the same, a Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. 'And thus,' says Saint Antoninus, 'God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.'....But that she is so, is evident from the fact, that whatever the Mother asks for, the Son never denies her; and this was revealed to Saint Bridget, who one day heard Jesus talking with Mary, and thus address her: 'Ask of me what thou wilt, for no petition of thine can be void.'
St Alphonsus de'Liguori, The Glories of Mary, p146 The book carries this statement: WE hereby approve of this Translation of "The Glories of Mary," and cordially recommend it to the Faithful. Nicholas Card. Wiseman, Archbisop of Westminster
To illustrate the statements above aren't from the average Roman Catholic I provide the following below.
To my knowledge none of their statements above have been repudiated by Rome.
Liguori was canonized by Pope Gregory XVI and proclaimed a Doctor of the Church by Pope Pius in 1871.
Saint Bernadine was canonised by the Catholic Church as a saint. He is also referred to as the Apostle of Italy.
Saint Antoninus is venerated as a saint by the Catholic Church
Saint Anselm was proclaimed a Doctor of the Church by a bull of Pope Clement XI in 1720.
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My seminary training must have been defective, and my courses on Catholic teaching are off. If only you I had had you as a professor in seminary, maybe I would have understood what the Catholic Church really teaches. All those priest professors were really trying to mis-form the seminarians so that they might mis-represent Catholic teaching to all the faithful.
Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Muslims....make the same argument as you.
As I told one of your fellow RCs, I can show in Scripture what I believe.....the Roman catholic cannot.
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Only ealgeone can be trusted to proclaim infallibly what the Catholic Church teaches.
Ok...then deny what I'v posted is reflective of Roman Catholic teaching on the topic.
Am I to take it you are a priest?
I have the prerequisite degrees, but not a hand has been laid on me. I do, however, teach theology.
Your quotes have nothing to do with creation ex nihilo or the forgiveness of sins.
One can play all sorts of word games with verbs that have different meanings or acts that allow for secondary//instrumental causes or diverse interpretation.
If Catholics really think that a statue is God, I want to see something showing that Catholics think that a statue can do what clearly only God can do, and no secondary cause can bring about.
I asked you to show me a Catholic claiming that a statue can create ex nihilo or forgive sins.
Mary is called omnipotent in one.
In the other it says it's impossible to be saved without her.
The Brown Scapular promises eternal life to those who wear it.
You don't by chance wear one of these do you? Brown, Green, Miraculous Medal?
One can play all sorts of word games with verbs that have different meanings or acts that allow for secondary//instrumental causes or diverse interpretation.
It's not a word game if you've studied the Greek.
If Catholics really think that a statue is God, I want to see something showing that Catholics think that a statue can do what clearly only God can do, and no secondary cause can bring about.
Never said anything about a statue being God...however, Rome has accorded to Mary divine attributes.
It’s not a word game if you’ve studied the Greek.
I’ve studied Greek. So show me a writing composed in Greek on the scapular. Greek words, like English words, often have loads of different meanings.
Never said anything about a statue being God.
Pardon me, in post 22 the word you actually used was Idols. I thought you were referring to statues. Not only was there nothing in seminary about the importance or usefulness of praying to statues, there was nothing about the importance and usefulness of praying to Idols.
I learn all sorts of things about Catholicism from you that we were never taught in seminary. A few of them I did pick up from Loraine Boettner. Maybe he attended the same Catholic seminary you did.
Never claimed the message of the apparition was delivered in Greek.
However, the message of the apparition is a false one.
btw....you didn't say if you wear the scapular or not.
Greek words, like English words, often have loads of different meanings.
Greek, in a lot of ways is more precise than English. Hence the need to study.
>>Never said anything about a statue being God.<<
Pardon me, in post 22 the word you actually used was Idols. I thought you were referring to statues. Not only was there nothing in seminary about the importance or usefulness of praying to statues, there was nothing about the importance and usefulness of praying to Idols.
Ah, you're gonna go Clintonian...ok, I can play that game.
The statues/idols of Mary......happy now?
I learn all sorts of things about Catholicism from you that we were never taught in seminary. A few of them I did pick up from Loraine Boettner. Maybe he attended the same Catholic seminary you did.
I've never heard of Boettner until you mentioned him.
However, this false apologetic I see offered up by Roman Catholics, in that a non-Roman catholic cannot study and understand Roman Catholicism is bogus.
IF that reasoning is allowed, then the Roman Catholic can never study and understand Islam, Mormonism, or anything outside of their own denomination.
Prophecies being realized for these End of TimesFwiw, it offers some things for us to think about in these “End of Times” for as long as they and we last.
Cheers
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