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Private Luke Quinn – The Unlikely Celebrity of Harpers Ferry
The Emerging Civil War ^ | June 16, 2018

Posted on 12/04/2019 9:34:53 AM PST by robowombat

Private Luke Quinn – The Unlikely Celebrity of Harpers Ferry

Posted on June 16, 2018 by ECW Guest Post

When Private Luke Quinn arrived in Harpers Ferry, Virginia on October 18, 1859 he likely did not imagine that he’d never leave. He certainly could not have imagined that he’d be popularized in the small town with a namesake pub, an interesting monument and an unrestful sleep in St. Peter’s Cemetery. Here’s a quick look at the lively afterlife of the most unlikely celebrity of John Brown’s Raid…

Little is known about Private Luke Quinn prior to his untimely death. From his military records we know that he was born in Ireland in 1835 and arrived in the United States with his parents in 1844. He worked as a common laborer until November 1855 when he enlisted for a term of four years as a private in the United States Marine Corps at Brooklyn, New York. He would train at the Marine Barracks in Washington, DC until September, 1856 when he was assigned to the frigate USS St. Lawrence. He served aboard the St. Lawrence and the USS Perry on expeditions to Brazil and Paraguay and arrived back at the DC barracks in May 1859, his term of enlistment nearing its end.

On October 17, 1859 Quinn was among the approximately 100 Marines dispatched to Harpers Ferry by President James Buchanan to quell a rumored insurrection at that place. The Marines arrived at the United States Armory at Harpers Ferry the following morning to find a band of raiders under the command of Captain John Brown of Bleeding Kansas fame. Brown and his men had arrived at the Ferry to seize a cache of weapons stored at the arsenal there and to liberate slaves from local slaveholders. Local militia companies, railroad workers and armory employees had cornered the raiders and their civilian hostages inside the armory engine house. After a final, unsuccessful attempt to engage Brown and negotiate a surrender, Colonel Robert E. Lee commanded the Marines to attack the engine house and quell the insurrectionists.

Marines Attacking the Engine House (Harper’s Weekly)

A group of Marines stormed the engine house, battering the heavy door with sledgehammers. Lieutenant Israel Green – tasked with leading the assault – espied a nearby ladder and ordered the Marines to use it as a battering ram. After a few blows the lower section of the door collapsed and Green gained entry into the dark, hazy engine house. Immediately behind Green entered Private Quinn. As Green recalled in 1885,

“The Marine who followed me into the aperture made by the ladder received a bullet in the abdomen, from which he died in a few minutes.”

Green couldn’t be certain but he believed it was John Brown who fired the fatal shot. Hostage John Allstadt likewise believed Brown to have fired the shot that killed Quinn. In testimony during the trial that followed the raid, Allstadt stated that…

“He [Brown] fired at the marines, and my opinion is that he killed that marine.”

On cross-examination Allstadt clarified that he could not definitively say it was Brown that fired the fatal shot, and that he [Quinn] “might have been killed by shots fired before the door was broken open.”

Private Quinn was one of two Marines injured during the assault on the engine house and was the only Marine fatality. He had less than five weeks left on his term of enlistment. In a letter written just three months following the raid, Father Michael A. Costello, pastor of St. Peter’s Catholic Church in Harpers Ferry, recalled the events…

“In the final attack on the insurgents two of the soldiers were wounded, one of them mortally. As both were Catholics I was summoned to attend them. As Private Luke Quin[n] fell, pierced through with a ball, his first exclamation was to Major Russel[l], of the United States Marines, who seeing him fall, went up to him. In pitiful accents he cried out “Oh! Major, I am gone, for the love of God will you send for the priest.” I administered to him the holy rites of the Church; he died that day, and was buried with military honours in the Catholic graveyard at this place.”

David Hunter Strother likewise recounted seeing the mortally wounded Quinn…

“As I passed the window at the Old Superintendent’s House, now used as an office, an acquaintance beckoned me to enter. I did so, and found there lying on the floor a marine who was mortally wounded. He was an Irishman named Quinn, a mere boy & his sufferings must have been great as his cries and screams made one’s flesh creep. A priest knelt beside him and like the friar in Marmion – “With unavailing cares, exhausted all the churches prayers” to soothe the dying soldier’s agony.”

Quinn’s remains were interred in an unmarked grave in St. Peter’s Cemetery in Harpers Ferry where they would remain for 68 years. In 1927 local physician Walter Dittmeyer, resident Loughlin Mater and Reverend John Curran undertook an effort to locate Quinn’s grave and provide a proper marker. The trio also enlisted longtime resident Thomas Boerley, whose father had been killed by one of Brown’s men during the raid. They identified the spot that oral tradition held as Quinn’s burial location and soon disinterred a partial skeleton, including a skull and fragments of the long bones. Brass buttons, bits of a greenish-blue uniform and a Catholic emblem gave the group reasonable certainty that they’d located Quinn’s grave. Pieces of the uniform were acquired by West Virginia historian and John Brown buff Boyd Stutler, who displayed the morbid artifacts at West Virginia University in 1955.

In 1931, the Holy Name Society of the Diocese of Richmond passed a resolution to erect a monument on Quinn’s grave. It took nearly a decade before the monument was dedicated on May 5, 1940, where it stands to this day. In 2012 a local Marine Corps League detachment rededicated the gravesite and installed a new marker and flagpole.

Most Recent Quinn Gravestone (findagrave.com)

But Private Quinn’s story doesn’t end there…

In 2009 a pub and eatery opened in a ca. 1830’s building along Potomac Street in Harpers Ferry with Private Quinn – who had died less than 500 feet away – as its namesake. Private Quinn’s Pub was a popular stop for hikers, tourists and residents until the devastating 2015 fire that swept the Harpers Ferry historic commercial district. The pub was heavily damaged during the fire and opted not to reopen – the restored building today houses Almost Heaven Pub and Grill.

For nearly a century Harper’s Ferry has worked – sometimes unconventionally – to keep alive the memory of Private Luke Quinn, an otherwise faceless soldier who was among the first of hundreds of thousands to follow in the years ahead.

Jon-Erik M. Gilot holds degrees from Bethany College and Kent State University. He has been involved in the fields of archives and preservation for more than a decade and today works as an archivist in Wheeling, West Virginia.


TOPICS: VetsCoR
KEYWORDS: usmc
This is the USMC account of the Harper's Ferry action:

"AT ALL TINES READY.,.,;" HARPER'S FERRY AND THE tVIL WAR By Bernard C. Nalty "I must also ask to express...my entire commendation of the conduct of the detachment of Marines, who were at all times ready and prompt in the execution of any duty."

Brevet Colonel Robert E. Lee from his report to the Adjutant GenerTof the Suppression ot John Brown'ajd,

Thus wrote one of America's foremost soldiers of the 19th Century in reporting Marine participation in the major armed outbreak foreshadowing the bitter Civil War. He also might have been describing the often times overlooked role of the United States Marines in the terrible months between Fort Sumter and Appomattox. Harper's Ferry can, therefore, be logically considered as a part of the Civil War saga of the Corps.

James Ewell Brown Stuart, First Lieutenant, U. S. Cavalry, was enjoying six months' leave from his frontier post at Fort Riley, Kansas rr1tory. Yet, the joys of coming home to Virginia had not made him forget that he was a cavalryman by profession. On the rainy morning of 17 October l89, he had ridden over the muddy streets of Washington to the offices of the War Department, and now, he sat waiting to speak with Secretary of War John B. Floyd. While the young lieutenant was rehearsing in his mind for the coming Interview, the Secretary himself was face to face with the spectre of a slave insurrection. (1)

John B. Floyd was a poor administrator, a failing which almost resulted in his removal from office;(2) but on this day there was no time for paper shuffling, Word had come by way of Baltimore that an insurrection had broken out at Harper's Ferry. A band of armed men had captured the United States arsenal there and was fomenting a slave rebellion. A native ot Virginia, the Secretary must have heard the oft-told tales of the Haitians' revolt against their French masters with all its barbarism. Nor had any son of the Old Dominion forgotten Nat Thrner'g Rebellion, a slave uprising

which occurred a generation before and claimed the lives of 50 whites in a single bloody night. (3)

Swinging into action, Floyd fired off a telegram to Fort Monroe; and by noon Captain Edward 0. C. Ord with iSO artillerymen was on his way toward Baltimore on the first leg ot the journey to Harper's Ferry.(L.) There was no question as to who would command operations against the insurgents. Floyd called for his chief clerk and set him to writing orders summoning to the War Department Brevet Colonel Robert E. Lee, then on leave at his estate, Arlington, just across the Potomac from the Capital.

Message in hand, the harassed aide came dashing'out of the office, only to halt when he spied the forgotten cavalry officer. Stuart, by now thoroughly bored, was easily persuaded to deliver the sealed envelope. Even as this message was speed1ng toward its destination, President James Buchanan called upon Secretary Floyd to move even faster, a demand which was to bring the Marine Corps into the picture. (5)

Since there were no troops nearer the scene of the uprising than those en route from Fort Monroe, Floyd was powerless to comply; but Secretary of the Navy Isaac Toucey quickly offered a solution to his dilemma. About noon, Charles W. Welsh, chief clerk of the Navy Department, came riding through the main gate of the Washington Navy Yard. He sought out First Lieutenant Israel Greene, temporarily in command of Marine Barracks, Washington, and asked how many Leathernecks were available for duty, Greene estimated that he could round up some 90 men from both his barracks and the small Navy Yard detachment. He then asked Welsh what was wrong. The civilian told him all he knew-- that the armory at Harper's Ferry had been seized by a group of abolitionists and that state and

Federal troops were already on the march.(6)

Mr. Welsh reported back to the Navy Department, and Secretary Toucey at once began drafting an order to John Harris, Colonel Commandant of the Corps. "Send all the available. marines at Head Quarters," he wrote, "under charge of suitable officers, by this evening's train of cars to Harpers Ferry to protect the public proerty at that place, which is endangered by a riotous outbreak. Once they arrived at their destination, the Leathernecks would be under the command of the senior Army officer present,(7) in this case, Colonel Lee.

As the senior line officer on duty at the Navy Yard, Israel Greene assumed the burden of organizing the expedition. Major William W. Russell, Paymaster of the Corps, was detailed to assist him; but Russell, a staff officer, could not exercise conmand over the force. Colonel Harris felt that the presence of a more mature person--Greene, after all, had only a dozen years' service to his credit——might prevent unnecessary bloodshed. (8) Working with the major, Greene saw to it that each of his 86 men had drawn ,nuskets,ball cartridges, and rations. Since no one knew for certain the strength or exact position of the insurgent force, two 3-inch howitzers and a number of shrapnel shells were made ready. At 1530, the Leathernecks clambered aboard a Baltimore and Ohio train and rattled off toward Harper's Ferry. (9)

While Secretary Toucey was busy alerting the Marines, Jeb Stuart had returned from Arlington with Colonel Lee. Once again the lieutenant waited in the Secretary's anteroom as Floyd outlined the crisis to Lee. There was no need to stress the savage implications of a slave uprising; for the colonel had been stationed at Fort Monroe when Nat Turner had put aside his hoe to take up the sword, and he well remembered the terror that followed. He recalled, too, how militia, regulars, and Marines from Norfolk had scoured the Virginia countryside before bringing Turner to bay deep in the vastness of Dismal Swamp. After receiving the latest intelligence from western Virginia, Lee was handed orders placing him in overall command of the effort to suppress the insurrection. (10)

Accompanied by Stuart, Floyd and Lee hurried to the White House where the colonel was given a proclamation of martial law to issue if he should see fit, In addition to the procla— mation, Lee acquired an aide. Certain that a fight of some sort was at hand, Stuart volunteered to accompany him to Harper's Ferry, and Lee accepted. Still in civilian clothes, the colonel hurried to the railroad station, but the Marines had already left. (11)

The next train to leave the National Capital was the Baltimore Express. At 1700, Lee arid Stuart boarded the train in the hope of catching up with the column at Relay House, a station near Baltimore where the troops had to change trains. They were too late, and the expedition rolled off toward its goal without its commanding officer. Lee then wired the stationmaster at Sandy Hook, Maryland, to hold the trainload of Leathernecks until he and his aide arrived, For the time being, all the two officers could do was wait.

Fortunately, they were not delayed for long. John W. Garrett, president of the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad, learned of Lee's plight and ordered a locomotive to Relay House. Aware that a few moments wasted might cost him his job, the engineer opened wide the throttle. At 2200, Lee arrived at Sandy Hook, on the Maryland side of the Potomac across the bridge from Harper's Ferry. Major Russell and Lieutenant Greene were waiting as the Army officers decended from the cab.(l2) Lee now learned the details of the insurrection.

It had happened so quickly. On the night of 16 October, at about 2230, 18 armed men, led by a farmer who called himself Isaac Smith--.some said he was "Old Osawatomie," John Brown of Kansas-padded across the covered, wooden railroad trestle leading into the town and made a prisoner of one of the bridge tenders. Next the raiders had strolled undetected through the darkness of the gates of the United States armory. They leveled their pistols at a startled watchman and quickly gained access to the buildings.

The leader of the band then sent out patrols to take hostages. Most prominent among the captives was Lewis W. Washington, a colonel on the staff of Governor Henry A. Wise of Virginia and the great-grandnephew of George Washington. His captors forced him to hand over a sword given the first President by Frederick the.Great or Prussia l3). During the nightmare that followed, this sword hung at the side of the man called Smith.

While the prisoners were being rounded up, the second bridge tender, Patrick Higgins, wandered out onto the span in search of his partner. In the darkness, he collided with two of the raiders who had been posted as guards. A single punch floored one of them, and as the other fired widly, Higgins sprinted back to town. The angry, red crease etched lightly across his scalp by a rifle bullet was proof enough that Harper's Ferry was under attack.

The raiders next showed their hand when the eastbound night express neared Harper's Ferry. Afraid that the bridge had been weakened, a railroad employee flagged the train to a halt short of the trestle. A party of trainmen walked out onto the span to Investigate but were driven back by a volley of rifle fire. Mortally wounded by the self-appointed liberators was Shephard Hayward, a freed slave. Until dawn, the raiders held the train at Harper's Ferry. Then the locomotive gingerly eased Its cars across the bridge, gathered momentum, and roared off toward Frederick City, Maryland. There, it halted while the conductor wired a garbled report of the insurrection to the railroad's main office in Baltimore. This news was relayed to the governors of Maryland and Virginia; militiamen were alerted and sent marching toward the embattled town. Next, a telegram was dispatched to the Secretary of War, and now, at last, Colonel Lee and the Marines had arrived on the scene. (l).i.)

To the colonel's experienced eye, the situation did not appear critical. Harper's Ferry swarmed with militia; and although the state troops were disorganized, ill-trained, some of them drunk, there was enough of them to prevent the raiders escaping Into the hills. Nor was there any point In posting the proclamation of martial law. There were too few Federal troops to patrol the streets, and the citizen soldiers who would have to assist them were perhaps the least orderly group in town. '4.

Since the situation was fairly well in hand, Colonel Lee hurried off a wire informing Captain Ord that his artillerymen, turned infantry, would not be needed at Harper's Ferry. They were to halt at Fort McHenry in Baltimore. (15) Learning that the militiamen, whatever their faults, had at least forced the insurgents to barricade themselves in a single small building on the armory grounds-- the engine house-- Lee decided to attack as quickly as possible. Because of the danger to the hostages, a night assault was out of the question, so the colonel, his aide, and the Marines crossed the river to await the dawn. (16)

About 2300 on the night of 17 October, Greene led his men across the covered bridge and into the armory yard to relieve the militia posted around the raider bastion. The insurgents had taken refuge In a stone building, about 30 by 35 feet, which housed the armory's fire fighting equipment. Three entrances, each separated from its neighbor by a stone abutment, pierced the front of the structure. Two of these were guarded by heavy, nail-studded, double doors, while on their left was an equally strong single door. (17) To assault a band of determined men, frontier guerrillas who had proven themselves to be deadly marksmen, would not be an easy task.

As the Marines moved out, Lee was busy laying his plans. First, he drafted a surrender ultimatum addressed to the person in command of the insurgents- -Lee was not yet certain that Brown was leading the raid-- to be delivered by Lieutenant Stuart' at the colonel's orders. Should the raiders refuse uncondition&1 surrender, there would be no bargaining with them. At a signal from Stuart, the assault party would batter down a door and pounce on the enemy with bayonet and rifle butt. There could be no shooting because of the danger to the hostages. (18) Selecting men to make the assault posed a touchy problem in federal—state rlationships. Since the uprtsing was directed mainly against the slave states, even though ederal property was involved, Lee offered the honor of spearheading the attack to the militia. The officer in charge of Maryland troops, who maintained that his only mission was to protect the townspeople, declined. He could see no reason for sacrificing Maryland lives to avenge an insult to a sister state; besides, Marines were paid for this kind of work. Nor was the Virginia militia colonel eager to erase the stain of insurrection from the honor of the Old Dominion; let the "mercenaries," as he called the Marines, do the job. The veteran Army officer, still clad In civilian clothes, then turned to Israel Greene splendid in his dress uniform. Would the Marines storm the engine house? Greene whipped off his cap and accepted with thanks. (19) At about 0630, Greene received his instructions. Twelve men were to form the storming party, with an equal number in reserve. In addition, a detail of three men, each of whom had been issued a heavy sledge harnmer,(20) was to accompany the assault party and batter down the center doors of the engine house. Twenty-seven Marines, with Greene and Russell at their head, gathered close to the engine house, but out of the insurgent's line of fire to await Stuart's signal.

Two thousand pairs of eyes were fixed on Jeb Stuart as he strode, bearing a flag of truce, toward the engine house to deliver Lee's ultimatum. Thnsely, the throng of spectators waited for the drama to unfold. Standing on a small rise in front of the makeshift fort was Robert E. Lee, looking every Inch an officer in spite of his grimy clothing and tired face. Near him, dressed as though for parade, were the blue-clad Marines.

Now, •Stuart halted before the building and called for "Mr. Smith." The center doors opened a few inches, There carbine In hand, stood the lean, fierce figure of old John Brown, the antislavery zealot who had caused so much bloodshed on the banks of Osawatomle Creek in Kansas. Stuart recognized him at once.

The lieutenant repeated Lee's demand for Immediate surrender, but Brown tried desperately to bargain, From Inside the building came the cries of the hostages, pleading that Lee cooperate with their captor. Satisfied that Brown would not listen to reason, Stuart spun aside, pressed his back against the abutment, and waved his hat, that gaudily plumed chapeau which would become his trademark during the Civil War. (21) Instantly the Marines sprang to the assault. Three of them flailed away with their sledge hammers; but the center doors, now slammed and bolted, held fast. Inside, Brown removed the historic sword from his belt, placed It reverently upon one of the fire carts, then joined the four raiders yet unwounded in trying to beat back the assault. From within the building caine the bold words of Lewis Washington. "Don't mind us," he shouted. "FireJ" Lee recognized the voice. "The old revolutionary blood does tell," was his quiet comment. (22)

Suddenly, the thudding hammers etopped. During the charge, Greene had seen a ladder lying near the engine house. Now, he ordered his men to snatch It up to use as a battering ram. Its second blow splintered the door, and the Leathernecks came spilling into the building just as Brown was reloading his weapon. (23)

Armed only with his light dress sword, Greene jumped from the cover of the abutment and bounded through the opening. Behind him came Major Russell, weaponless but brandishing a rattan switch. The darkened interior rocked to the echoing shots. The third Marine to scramble through the shattered door, Private Luke Quinn, took a fatal bullet in his abdomen. The fourth man, Private Mathew Ruppert, was slightly wounded in the face; (2Li.) but these casualties could not stem the blue— clad tide.

The first figure to rise from the gloom as Greene rushed forward was that of Lewis Washington, an old friend. The Virginia aristocrat strode up to the officer, warmly took his left hand, then, pointing to a bearded man tumbling with a carbine, said, "This is Oswatomie." With all his strength Greene slashed at Brown with his sword. The first blow left a deep cut across the back of his neck; but the frail blade bent double on Brown's ammunition belt when Greene thrust at his heart, and John Brown was spared for the hangman. (25) In a moment the engine house was filled with widly charging Marines. A sniper posted under one of the engines was bayoneted to death; sharpened steel pinned a second raider to the wall. Greene then called a halt to the onslaught as the two unwounded raiders surrendered. (26)

Three minutes of fierce action had ended a 32-hour reign of terror. None of the hostages was harmed, but the Marines suffered two men wounded, one of them fatally. Brown, his wounded and semiconscious son, and four able-.bodied riflemen had defended the engine house, Of these, two were killed, and the others taken prisoner.(27)

All that remained was to deliver the prisoners to the jail at Charlestown, a journey that proved uneventful. Upon their return to Harper's Ferry, rumors of a new uprising, this one at the village of Pleasant Valley, Maryland, greeted the Marines. Lee, Stuart, Greene, and 25 men marched the five miles to this sleepy hamlet on the night of 19 October, but, as the colonel expected, all was calm. (28)

The slave uprising had not materialized. The pikes with which John Brown had hoped to arm the rebels were never issued. Yet, the raid on Harper's Ferry, this ill-planned, poorly executed attempt to free men in bondage, hastened "the inevitable conflict."

In this conflict, the four officers who took part in Brown's capture were to find themselves sorely tried in spirit and body. Only Major Russell was to remain with the Union, dying in office as Paymaster of the United States Marine Corps in October 1862. (29) The exploits of Lee and Stuart are too well known to recount.

Israel Greene, literally the sword of the Union at Harper's Ferry, also joined the Confederate cause. A New Yorker by Lirth, a Wisconsinite by rearing, a Virginian by marriage, and a Marine by profession, Greene's services were sought after when the time came to choose up sides in 1861. Declining appointment both as a lieutenant colonel in the Virginia Infantry and as a colonel in the Wisconsin militia, Greene accepted a captaincy In the fledgling Confederate States Marine Corps. As a major and Adjutant and Inspector of the Corps he served throughout the war at Confederate Marine headquarters In Richmond until his capture and parole at Farmville, Virginia, in April 1865. Returning to the west, Greene settled in Mitchell, South Dakota, where he died in 1909, 50 years after his moment in the glaring spotlight of history at Harper's Ferry--a visible symbol of the great struggle that tore the nation asunder and put it back together again. (30)

https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/United%20States%20Marines%20at%20Harper_s%20Ferry%20and%20in%20the%20Civil%20War%20PCN%2019000410300.pdf

1 posted on 12/04/2019 9:34:53 AM PST by robowombat
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To: All

I’ve travelled thru Virginia and Maryland many times but have yet to see Harpers Ferry and the northern Shenandoah Valley.

I hope to get there sometime. It looks very interesting.


2 posted on 12/04/2019 9:41:40 AM PST by MplsSteve
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To: robowombat

John Brown. Original anti-Deep State Fighter.

3 posted on 12/04/2019 9:50:46 AM PST by ifinnegan (Democrats kill babies and harvest their organs to sell)
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To: MplsSteve

It is beautiful country and decent people, so different from DC.


4 posted on 12/04/2019 9:58:21 AM PST by robowombat (Orthodox)
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To: ifinnegan

America’s first hostage taker terrorist. Amazing comparison to contemporary hostage taker terrorist.


5 posted on 12/04/2019 10:02:04 AM PST by robowombat (Orthodox)
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To: ifinnegan
Liberal Lunatic demanding "Change!" Willing to shed other people's blood to accomplish it.

Also failed wool merchant. Cotton you see, was his financial competitor. No wonder he resented free labor being used by his corporate enemy.

There's usually a money angle when you look for it.

6 posted on 12/04/2019 11:52:23 AM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no oither sovereignty.")
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To: robowombat

Very interesting - thanks for posting!


7 posted on 12/04/2019 12:24:13 PM PST by rockrr ( Everything is different now...)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Ping.

5.56mm


8 posted on 12/04/2019 12:27:46 PM PST by M Kehoe (DRAIN THE SWAMP! BUILD THE WALL!)
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To: DiogenesLamp
There's usually a money angle when you look for it.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail to be pounded"

9 posted on 12/04/2019 12:32:43 PM PST by rockrr ( Everything is different now...)
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To: rockrr
When there is always money behind people's motivation, you need to assume that it is their primary motivation.

If John Brown hadn't gone bankrupt twice in the wool industry... had he been a factory worker or something that had no direct connection to slavery or slave industry, then his motives could not be misconstrued as something else.

However, whenever you see someone claiming some great moral crusade, like "Climate Change", or "Reproductive Rights", or "Undocumented Migrants", you can rest assured that underneath all of it is a pile of money someone is making or someone is losing.

John Brown spent a lot of time working with Massachusetts wool merchants and other wealthy Massachusetts liberals. It was these wealthy liberal elites who financed his raid.

Certainly a sudden spike in the price of cotton wouldn't have hurt the wool industry any, would it?

10 posted on 12/04/2019 12:44:51 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no oither sovereignty.")
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To: M Kehoe

This is really interesting. Thanks for the ping.


11 posted on 12/04/2019 1:03:14 PM PST by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: robowombat

The father of my great grandfather’s second wife was a member of the jury that tried Brown.


12 posted on 12/04/2019 2:10:53 PM PST by Hiddigeigei ("Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish," said Dionysus - Euripides)
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To: DiogenesLamp
Brown was a terrorist and psychopathic, however, he did not make promises with his mouth his butt wouldn't pay on. I cannot imagine even the Antifa scum let alone the PJ boys being willing to play Alamo with half the town and county shooting at you and a the USMC on the scene looking for the fight. Most of Brown's backers were weasels except Thomas Wentworth Higginson who was a company grade officer in the 54th Mass. and saw plenty of combat. After the war Higginson became positively chummy with Jefferson Davis as he acted as the publishers editor for Davis's magnum opus ‘Rise and Fall of the Confederacy’. Go figure, Higginson was also ga ga about Thomas Nelson Page and his rather syrupy plantation novels.
13 posted on 12/04/2019 2:31:55 PM PST by robowombat (Orthodox)
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To: robowombat
Brown was a religious zealot nut, and no, he didn't want for bravery.

I have little doubt he interpreted the bible to justify his own manic impulses, but this is just him using God as a sockpuppet for his own thoughts. A lot of people do that, but fortunately not all of them are so hard core.

I think his impulses started out as hatred for his dominant competitor, but by the time he finished massaging them in his own mind, he became convinced that his adversary was evil incarnate and he was the self appointed bringer of the Lord's revenge.

It may very well be that the fear John Brown created in the South is responsible for the split. People say the Southerners acted irrationally to Lincoln's election, but it is possible that the Harper Ferry raid unnerved them, and when people are afraid, they will not always act rationally.

14 posted on 12/04/2019 2:56:28 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no oither sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp

I would be loathe to credit “liberals” with the issue of emancipation. Freeing innocent people from bondage is the antithesis of what the left is about.


15 posted on 12/05/2019 12:15:18 AM PST by fieldmarshaldj (Dear Mr. Kotter, #Epsteindidntkillhimself - Signed, Epstein's Mother)
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To: fieldmarshaldj
I would be loathe to credit “liberals” with the issue of emancipation. Freeing innocent people from bondage is the antithesis of what the left is about.

They didn't initiate the war to emancipate the slaves. They initiated the war to keep Southern economic trade with Europe under the control of New York and Washington DC. When they began, the intent was simply to restore everything as it was prior to 1861. The effort to emancipate the slaves did not start until nearly two years after the war had began.

They ended up emancipating the slaves to wreck the South's ability to continue fighting the war, and to wreck them economically when the war was concluded. There was no actual milk of human kindness in any of their actions, it was all about asserting control from Washington DC.

Imposing a new morality especially with government forcing it down everyone's throat is a hallmark of Liberal methodology. More power to Washington DC is also a characteristic of Liberal thought.

16 posted on 12/05/2019 2:20:26 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no oither sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp; rockrr; DoodleDawg
Also failed wool merchant. Cotton you see, was his financial competitor. No wonder he resented free labor being used by his corporate enemy.

Even from your bunker in Bizarro World, you ought to realize that even if he resented the cotton business it wouldn't have been the use of free labor that he complained about.

John Brown spent a lot of time working with Massachusetts wool merchants and other wealthy Massachusetts liberals. It was these wealthy liberal elites who financed his raid.

Distorted in so many ways. Brown wanted to get higher prices for the farmers from the woolen manufacturers. He wasn't on the side of the big manufacturers. When Brown became known as an abolitionist activist he connected with several upscale Easterners who gave him money. Most of them weren't truly rich and I don't see that any of them was especially active in the wool trade. But hey, why let facts stand in the way of an idiotic conspiracy theory?

17 posted on 12/05/2019 2:52:20 PM PST by x
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To: x
Even from your bunker in Bizarro World, you ought to realize that even if he resented the cotton business it wouldn't have been the use of free labor that he complained about.

How so? If I saw people getting rich because they were exploiting free labor, it would piss me the h3ll off! I would be quite angry and resentful about it, and i'm not the only one.

Ever hear Union people or just ordinary workers complain about slave labor in the third world, or H-1B visas?

Why wouldn't John Brown, who actually had to work for a living, not be resentful about his main economic competitors getting rich off of not only free labor, but labor which he consider to be evil and immoral?

Putting myself in his shoes, it would make me furious.

Distorted in so many ways. Brown wanted to get higher prices for the farmers from the woolen manufacturers.

Yes, he tried to organize Massachusetts wool merchants to regulate grades of wool so as to command a better price for the best quality and such. The Massachusetts producers were happy enough with the prices they were getting, and didn't see the need to buy in to his more complicated grading system.

Most of them weren't truly rich and I don't see that any of them was especially active in the wool trade.

The ringleaders of his funding efforts weren't wool merchants, but I dare say he wouldn't have made their acquaintance had he stayed down in Kansas instead of Massachusetts. Why was he in Massachusetts? To organize the wool merchants there.

18 posted on 12/05/2019 3:12:07 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no oither sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp
If I saw people getting rich because they were exploiting free labor, it would piss me the h3ll off!

It wasn't free labor that John Brown was angry about. Are you really so dim? Why do you keep talking about "free labor" when slavery was the issue?

Why was he in Massachusetts? To organize the wool merchants there.

Brown tried his hand as a wool merchant trying to organize a better deal for the farmers. That involved merchants pooling their efforts but that was a means to an end, not a goal in itself. Brown's wool merchant days in Western Massachusetts came before his time in Kansas. He went back to Massachusetts later to raise money. It is true that he secretly got funds from Amos Lawrence, a wealthy manufacturer involved in the woolen business, but most of those who backed him were not wealthy industrialists.

There's usually a money angle when you look for it.

You have gotten the Marxist theory of economic determinism down very well. But your view contradicts itself and is untenable. What you may not realize is that the same unmasking of the motives of people you disapprove of can be applied to your own motives and the motives of those you do approve of. If it's all about money and morality is a sham, then it's really all about power and force. Your idea that moral positions are just facades for the desire for money also applies to the legalistic view you claim to support. For if morality is a sham, what supports the law except brute force?

19 posted on 12/05/2019 3:48:55 PM PST by x
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