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Gospel Records of Jesus' Birth -- Bible Discussion
http://www.catholicexchange.com/node/68371 ^ | December 26, 2007 | Mary Harwell Sayler

Posted on 12/26/2007 11:50:03 AM PST by Salvation

Mary Harwell Sayler  
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Gospel Records of Jesus' Birth

December 26, 2007

Question: How did the Gospel writers get records of Jesus' birth? I understand how the Gospels record writings of things Christ did or things he taught the disciples and all his followers. I know how these are first hand accounts or taken from those who had first hand accounts. My question is, there are many events in Scripture where no one was present to witness the event, such as the Annunciation but especially the Magnificat, the Visitation, what Elizabeth said, the birth of Jesus, etc. So, where did the knowledge of these events and the actual quotations come from?

Discussion: To backtrack a bit for the benefit of other readers, Bible scholars generally agree that the book of Mark gives us our oldest Gospel and the primary source for many eye-witness accounts. Other Gospel writers probably drew from that material then added their own encounters, but as you mentioned, none of them — not even Mark — could have witnessed some of the events, such as Jesus' birth. However, Mary would have.

 In the Gospel of Luke, chapter 1 verse 3 tells us the physician had been "investigating everything accurately anew," which indicates that Luke took the diagnostic approach of a well-trained doctor. In addition, Luke seems to have taken on a role similar to that of today's  investigative reporter. Very likely, his work included careful note-taking of the questions he posed or conversations he had with reliable eye witnesses. Surely, too, at some point in time, Luke would have wanted to interview Jesus' Mother.

Not only did Mary know her Son better than anyone else on earth could, she was with Jesus at every major event in his life. When other followers ran away and hid, she stood at the foot of the cross with no apparent concern for her own life. Mary was there. She was focused. She was spirit-filled and brave — from the moment of Jesus' conception to his ascension into heaven, but most certainly at his birth and other events you mentioned.

Because of her faith, strength, and character, Mary would have made the ideal eye-witness on whom Luke could rely to present an accurate account of the birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ. In our search for the truth, we, too, can rely on Jesus' Mother and the guidance of the Holy Spirit who filled her very being with the Lord. So, as we prepare for the New Year, let's consider Mary our example for giving ourselves more fully to God. For instance, we might begin thinking and praying about ways to answer this important question: "Remember The Sabbath?" Lord willing, we'll have opportunity to discuss that topic in the next Bible Talk.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; catholiclist; christmas; jesusbirth; starofbethlehem; staroftheeast
For your information and discussion.
1 posted on 12/26/2007 11:50:05 AM PST by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Lady In Blue; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; Catholicguy; RobbyS; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

2 posted on 12/26/2007 11:51:10 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
While there is no real scientific way to determine the date of Jesus's birth, there is ample reason to believe that it could indeed have occurred on Dec. 25th...
Firstly, Luke mentions (1:26) that "in the sixth month" the angel Gabriel visited Mary to tell her she was going to bear a son. The sixth month of the old Hebrew calendar could have been right around April 1st (this is bolstered by the fact that Elizabeth, her cousin, was about 6 months pregnant with John who was conceived, according the Scripture, sometime in the autumn of the previous year.
Secondly, Joseph and Mary were traveling to Bethlehem to be counted in the census for tax purposes...and, since they were under Roman rule, it would make logistical sense that the Roman government would require the census to begin the first month of the Roman calendar.
Thirdly, there is the astronomical data that puts the star of Bethlehem (in the constellation of Aries) at its peak in the winter.

I have heard various accounts of evidence that Christ had to be born in the spring as that was when shepherds would be watching their flocks at night as lambs would be born in the early spring...however, the Bible does not specify exactly when they came to the manger. I reason it could have been late February or early March--when the lambs are usually born.

3 posted on 12/26/2007 12:26:13 PM PST by meandog (I'm one of the FEW and the BRAVE FReepers still supporting John McCain)
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To: meandog; Salvation
Gospel Records of Jesus' Birth -- Bible Discussion

The question is whether you believe and trust
the Holy Word of Elohim in Luke 1
or you trust the traditions of man

Yah'shua's birth on Sukkot (September 26 at sundown to October 3 2007)
(Sukkot is the Feast of Tabernacles or booths, where we live in temporary shelters.
Sukkot is when YHvH took on a temporary garment to be with His People
and to die as the Lamb of G-d on Pesach in order to bring salvation to all
who would call on His Name : Yah'shua ( YHvH is become my salvation)).

Sukkot as the date is supported by Elizabeth's pregnancy of John the Immerser.
The time sequence is outlined by the Holy Word of Elohim in Luke 1 with Zacharias.

Zacharias served as a high priest and based on his tribe, we know when he served
and when he was struck dumb and when John was conceived.

John would have been born on Pesach. Most Jews believed that
Elijah would come at Pesach to announce the coming of the Messiah

Factor in when Miriam visited her cousin Elizabeth,
Elizabeth was six months pregnant (Luke 1:26)
Thus the timing of Yah'shua's birth can be ascertained.

John (1:14) tells us that Yah'shua was made flesh and tabernacled among us.

Eight days after the beginning of Sukkot is another Holy Feast Day called Shemini Atzeret.

Eight days after a Jewish male is born he is circumcised.

Nine months back from Sukkot is Chanukah where the light entered the temple.

b'SHEM Yah'shua
4 posted on 12/26/2007 12:34:29 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Salvation
Luke 2:19 But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.

I have always presumed that this was Luke's way of attributing his birth narrative to Mary. After all how would Luke know what Mary treasured up or pondered upon if she had not told him herself?

5 posted on 12/26/2007 12:34:47 PM PST by Between the Lines (I am very cognizant of my fallibility, sinfulness, and other limitations.)
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To: XeniaSt
The question is whether you believe and trust the Holy Word of Elohim in Luke 1 or you trust the traditions of man

Unless I miss my guess, you are relying on some "traditions" as well: based on his tribe, we know when he served and when he was struck dumb and when John was conceived.

Do we not know that from a "tradition of men", i.e. which tribe was serving when the Temple was destroyed?

John would have been born on Pesach. Most Jews believed that Elijah would come at Pesach to announce the coming of the Messiah

Most Jews believed to me sounds like a tradition of men.

There seem to be other man-made assumptions in your exegesis as well, so I'm a little puzzled by your anti-tradition attitude, especially considering--as any good Jew knows--the oral tradition is not something to be discarded as if it were a meaningless distraction from the Holy Scripture.

6 posted on 12/26/2007 12:45:06 PM PST by Claud
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To: Claud
Unless I miss my guess, you are relying on some "traditions" as well: based on his tribe, we know when he served and when he was struck dumb and when John was conceived.

Do we not know that from a "tradition of men", i.e. which tribe was serving when the Temple was destroyed?

1 Chronicles 24:7-18

7 posted on 12/26/2007 12:51:15 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt

And the Pesach reference? Where’s that?


8 posted on 12/26/2007 1:04:36 PM PST by Claud
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To: Claud
And the Pesach reference? Where’s that?

NAsbU Malachi 4:5 "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.

And

Fifth Cup of wine bears the name of Elijah


9 posted on 12/26/2007 1:14:24 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt

That seems to me a rabbinic inference from connecting those two concepts—the fact that Elijah comes at Pesach is not literally spelled out in Scripture though, is it?

I sound like a Protestant LOL


10 posted on 12/26/2007 1:44:30 PM PST by Claud
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To: meandog

Interesting facts, especially about the Star of Bethlehem and annunciation date.

Then we have the quote from John the Baptist that has been aligned allegorically with the calendar — “He must increase; I must decrease.”

Christ was born in the winter when the days start to get longer — increase. John the Baptist was born in the summer when the days start getting shorter — decrease.


11 posted on 12/26/2007 1:52:21 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: XeniaSt

**Pesach**

What month would this be on our calendar?


12 posted on 12/26/2007 1:54:04 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Pesach is Passover...March/April...


13 posted on 12/26/2007 2:11:47 PM PST by scrabblehack
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To: Salvation
**Pesach**

What month would this be on our calendar?

In 2007 it was 2/3 April.

In 2008 it will be 19/20 April.

It is always the 14 of Nisan,
the 14th day after the new Moon after the ripening of the Barley.

NAsbU Leviticus 23:5 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover.

b'SHEM Yah'shua
14 posted on 12/26/2007 2:18:59 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt

Thanks......I learn somehing every day! LOL!


15 posted on 12/26/2007 2:21:37 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: XeniaSt
so on what date would "Pesach" have occurred 2000 years ago?

It sounds like you are concluding that John was born in the Spring, which would put Jesus's birth close to where it is now on our calendar.

16 posted on 12/27/2007 7:45:58 AM PST by GOP_Thug_Mom (libera nos a malo)
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To: XeniaSt
Hyam Maccoby, Revolution In Judaea: Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
17 posted on 12/27/2007 9:04:07 AM PST by onedoug
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