Posted on 03/15/2002 6:54:33 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
Repost – Highlights from chapters 1-5 copied from the original forum to the new one. To reference the full version, click here: Original Green Dragon Inn Within the first five chapters... disregard the reply numbers... they wont work.
Thank you ecurbh, for copying and editing our old thread so that the highlights could be moved here! Highlights of the first five chapters from the old thread are pasted into the first 5 replies here. For those of you who are just joining you… as of this post we are beginning Chapter 6.
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Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn
Approaching The Green Dragon Inn
Hobbiton, in The Shire
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And wither then? I cannot say.
- JRR Tolkien
Politics also goes ever on and on.
This is a place for FReeper Tolkien fans to come and take a break from the impure reality of conservative activism and relax a little with a great story. We (the other co-conspirators and I) would like to study together the writings of Tolkien, beginning together, and discussing as we go through The Lord of the Rings together.
This is a chapter discussion, roughly one chapter per week, with the discussion mostly centered on the books, though of course the movie will be contrasted and compared, and perhaps used to illustrate another interpretation of the story.
Every week, someone from the group (maybe me) will ping The Green Dragon List to the new Chapter, but we will continue this one thread until it becomes too cumbersome…. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will for now serve as the Thain of the list.
If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed.
Some have loved this story a long time, and some are newly discovering it. If you fit either category, we invite you to join in, but we would like this thread to stay mostly focused on the chapter at hand and keep moving, but at a pace everyone can keep up with… No jumping ahead, and no lagging behind! If you have other news to report or wish to discuss something Tolkien in more general terms… May we recommend the equally homey Hobbit Hole where my co-conspirators and I frequently have plenty of good talk.
One other request…. This thread will get long. In recognition that images slow down the thread for many, let’s keep the posting of images to a minimum on this thread. If there is a great illustration you wish to share, let’s try to use links instead of images wherever possible.
So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.
Though it is a work of fiction, we believe the inspiration to be gained can only help us in our larger political goals: to appreciate and defend our freedom, our culture and our political ideals. May the fellowship and insight gained from this discussion help us to work through the issues that are the basis for our many shared ideals.
Besides, we Tolkien fans* need something to keep us busy during the next two years of waiting for the next two films. If you do not enjoy this story, then please simply leave us be.
*Also known as Geeky Hobbity Weirdos, obsessive fanatics, you name it, we have heard it and we see these names as compliments. In other words: don’t act like a troll, or we will distract you with our endless babble until the morning sun turns you to stone.
Also, I'm going to have to find a new reference. The Encyclopedia of Arda doesn't have entries for The Green Dragon or The Ivy Bush but they do for the Golden Perch!
I'm not sure what you mean by this... but I got a strange vision of white mice. Brockian Ultra Cricket, anyone?
And since that is totally off-subject, let me justify my post a little. Tom, according to Tolkien, is the "manifestation of the Oxford countryside" but I'm not really sure what that means. Or how it relates to Middle-Earth, really. While I might argue that he seems to best fit the Maia category, in reality he doesn't quite fit any box, which is probably exactly what Tolkien intended. Why don't we just say that Tom is - he's one of a kind, not entirely understandable by human - or hobbit! - standards, and he's got his own purpose, plans, and destiny. After all, in a world with Elves, Dwarves, dragons and Balrogs, why is Bombadil weird?
Does anyone know exactly what a 'Green Man' is? I've read a few different description of these folklore creatures, and they might be sort of Bombadilesque beasties.
Oh, and as for Goldberry, she is the River-daughter, probably a minor Maia (my belief) but possibly some sort of nymph. There aren't any indications of nymphs or fauns in Tolkien, but as I said before, why not?
"Before moving on to consider the details involved in identifying Bombadil as a nature spirit, it is helpful to get a better understanding of nature spirits in general. As it turns out, it is more straightforward to collect evidence that Goldberry is such a being, which would be a natural corollary if Tom had that identity, so we will begin with her. One of the strongest statements supporting this identity for Goldberry comes from Letter #210, in which Tolkien speaks of her and says "We are not in 'fairy-land', but in real river-lands in autumn. Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes in such lands." This letter, written after the completion of LotR, indicates that at least in some sense Tolkien saw Goldberry as a nature spirit, specifically a spirit associated with river-lands and seasons."
More HERE.....scroll about 1/3 down for Goldberry discussion.
The rest of your interpretation is great too. As a lover of Bombadil, and the River-Daughter, I am comfortable with just letting him be whatever he is. But I am impressed with your ability to allow for vagueness! Your reputation as a strict historian now has to make room for "I don't know and it doesn't really matter". Hi! Ho! Merry Dol!
I wonder if there's such a thing as a doctorate in Tolkienology? I wonder what my parents would say if I said I wanted to study such a thing...
Of course, there is the little problem of the constant upheavals, that changed the landscape several times, usually while Morgoth was being defeated. Still, the area that would become the Shire/Bree region seems to have been fairly stable. It wasn't drowned like Beleriand or Numenor, and no new mountain ranges popped up in the middle of it. Maybe this was because of Bombadil. That's something I haven't thought about before. I wonder if part of the reason why Hobbits settled in the area was Bombadil's presence. I bet they'd like the same sort of land he would. In a way, they have a lot in common - a lot more than he would have with Dwarves, for instance.
Had I not included the phrase "dirty old man," would not the rest at least provoke thought and perhaps serious comment?
Oh, please...do tell.
I have not quite finished the last book, but I fell in love with the Ents, and have been hoping that by the end, the Fanghorn Forest and the Old Forest would discover each other, and well, start a new Forest.
Your opening phrase upset me, and so I was not able to assess the rest! Let me try now, ignoring the first part ;~D
He has everything the way he wants it and only takes interest in the Hobbits as an amusing curiousity.
This part I agree with! The events of the outside world are of little concern to him, but I think calling it self-abosrbed or characterizing it as old man's fantasy is unfair. He is content to enjoy the simple things, his forest and his lady-love. The rest of the outside world does not affect him. He is not a conqueror or a seeker of glory and fame, nor is he compelled to get involved in the temporary problems of the day. His motives are no more evil than the closed and innocent nature of the Shire, and most of us hope that they keep that innocence and never have to deal with the evils of those outside their realm.
The Old Forest herded the company to Old Man Willow at his direction so that he could conveniently meet the one who would bring an end to his age.
I dont know that we have any reason to believe this. I don't know of any hint that Old Man Willow works for him, or was acting at his direction. IMHO, Old Man Willow had his own agenda, but Tom is the master.
Hmm. I don't know that Tom's age will end with the ring. He was there before the ring and before all the peoples of the earth, he is the eldest. He was never under it's dominion, and I see no reason why his world would end because the ring was destroyed, or that he was concerned about this, as the elves are.
So... although I disagree with a lot of your interpretation, minus the first part, the rest was worthy of consideration. You shouldn't shock my sensibilities like that! ;~D
He has everything the way he wants it and only takes interest in the Hobbits as an amusing curiousity. The Old Forest herded the company to Old Man Willow at his direction.
As master of his realm he surely knew how the Old Forest worked to funnel trespassers to Old Man Willow. It appears he has had some experience with the Willow before and has learned how to exert some control over it.
His motives are no more evil than the closed and innocent nature of the Shire, and most of us hope that they keep that innocence and never have to deal with the evils of those outside their realm.
I don't think his motives are particularly evil, but they are not all together innocent. I think this experience is an early lesson in caution for the company because he knows too well what evils they will be exposed in the outside world.
Hmm. I don't know that Tom's age will end with the ring.
Don't wish to spoil, so this point can be discussed in more depth when his name appears for the last time.
You shouldn't shock my sensibilities like that! ;~D
My apologies....but it did get your attention. :-)
I only continue to question this interpretation:
It appears he has had some experience with the Willow before and has learned how to exert some control over it
Yes he can control Old Man Willow when he arrives on the scene, but I think he is master of a not-completely-obedient old grumpy tree. If Old Man Willow draws unsuspecting victims to him, I think this is of his own accord. Tom speaks to him as one would chastise an errant dog jumping up on a visitor, not as if OMW had fulfilled some order or plan of Mr. Bombadil. In other words... He can control the tree, but it is reactive, rather than premeditated, IMHO. He is the master, but that does not mean he controls, rather he oversees what happens and decides whether to do anything about it.
On second thought... Why is it not innocent to decide not to participate in the outside world's issues? ... True, he knows all about the evil that exists, and has chosen to fence himself off from it. I think it is not immoral to just protect your own and let the evil pass, or we would all be evil if we are not actively fighting every evil that we know exists.
I have thought on many occasions that the survivalist-types who have bugged out and headed for the hills might have chosen a fairly good way of dealing with an imperfect world. They remind me of Bombadil, except I don't see them singing silly songs as much.
I've been searching for images of Ol' Tom......sketches, artist's renderings, whatever.....but no luck. Closest I came was a painting of Goldberry and another of Tom's house (which looked exactly as I picture it.)
Or maybe just an old guy. Captain Picard whateverhisrealnameis? I'll bet he'd look silly in that role!
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