Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn) II

[HairOfTheDog]

Repost – Highlights from chapters 1-5 copied from the original forum to the new one. To reference the full version, click here: Original Green Dragon Inn Within the first five chapters... disregard the reply numbers... they wont work.

Thank you ecurbh, for copying and editing our old thread so that the highlights could be moved here! Highlights of the first five chapters from the old thread are pasted into the first 5 replies here. For those of you who are just joining you… as of this post we are beginning Chapter 6.

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Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn

Approaching The Green Dragon Inn
Hobbiton, in The Shire

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And wither then? I cannot say.
- JRR Tolkien

Politics also goes ever on and on.
This is a place for FReeper Tolkien fans to come and take a break from the impure reality of conservative activism and relax a little with a great story. We (the other co-conspirators and I) would like to study together the writings of Tolkien, beginning together, and discussing as we go through The Lord of the Rings together.

This is a chapter discussion, roughly one chapter per week, with the discussion mostly centered on the books, though of course the movie will be contrasted and compared, and perhaps used to illustrate another interpretation of the story.

Every week, someone from the group (maybe me) will ping The Green Dragon List to the new Chapter, but we will continue this one thread until it becomes too cumbersome…. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will for now serve as the Thain of the list.

If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed.

Some have loved this story a long time, and some are newly discovering it. If you fit either category, we invite you to join in, but we would like this thread to stay mostly focused on the chapter at hand and keep moving, but at a pace everyone can keep up with… No jumping ahead, and no lagging behind! If you have other news to report or wish to discuss something Tolkien in more general terms… May we recommend the equally homey Hobbit Hole where my co-conspirators and I frequently have plenty of good talk.

One other request…. This thread will get long. In recognition that images slow down the thread for many, let’s keep the posting of images to a minimum on this thread. If there is a great illustration you wish to share, let’s try to use links instead of images wherever possible.

So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.

Though it is a work of fiction, we believe the inspiration to be gained can only help us in our larger political goals: to appreciate and defend our freedom, our culture and our political ideals. May the fellowship and insight gained from this discussion help us to work through the issues that are the basis for our many shared ideals.

Besides, we Tolkien fans* need something to keep us busy during the next two years of waiting for the next two films. If you do not enjoy this story, then please simply leave us be.

*Also known as Geeky Hobbity Weirdos, obsessive fanatics, you name it, we have heard it and we see these names as compliments. In other words: don’t act like a troll, or we will distract you with our endless babble until the morning sun turns you to stone.

[DonnerT]

Please... ask your questions! Questions are a good way to get discussions going and you might hit on something we hadn't thought of before.

Here is a question from another lurker. Why the rain in the movie pictures? The book describes clear starry skies then mentions mud on Srtider's boots. Directors discretion?

[Overtaxed]

I would have to say Director's Discretion (is there anyone out there with a "scenes behind the movie" book who can answer?) I think all the rain made Bree look gloomy and forbidding to go along with The Prancing Pony's more menacing "movie mood". (aliteration, anyone?)

[DonnerT]

Did the movie have the inn keeper introducing Dwarves and other Hobbits? I don't recall.
I didn't like the gloomy Prancing Pony.

[Sam Cree]

I think all the rain made Bree look gloomy and forbidding to go along with The Prancing Pony's more menacing "movie mood"..

I don't remember exactly how Tolkien had the weather for that day, but it sounds right about Jackson setting the mood with the rain.

RE Strider, who is introduced in this chapter, I read in Shippey's book (as I'm sure many did) that Tolkien initially had the hobbits meeting at the Prancing Pony not Strider, but another more worldly and traveled hobbit called "Trotter."

I think "Trotter" was Tolkien's original idea for "Strider" and was probably going to be their guide. I'm sure that Aragorn already existed in the Silmarillion, some of you who are pretty scholarly probably can tell me.

Somehow, the idea of a hobbit named "Trotter" strikes me as extremely funny, especially after years of being used to the heroic Aragorn.

Don't get me wrong for finding this humorous, I am grateful for Tolkien's existence and have cherished LOTR for over 30 years, since the days I considered myself a liberal. Now, as a "conservative," I cherish them even more.

[Sam Cree]

I didn't like the gloomy Prancing Pony.

I think perhaps that I also would not choose the Prancing Pony as a spot to relax with a couple of beers. But, aside from that,even though the inn was presented somewhat differently by Jackson than by Tolkien, I liked the movie version of the Prancing Pony alot. I thought the imagery was beautiful, many of the scenes there could have been taken right out of a Breughel painting (I saw where a movie reviewer thought this, but even so, it's true).

I also read on TORN or somewhere that every drinking vessel and utensil in the movie (which would include those in the inn) were designed and made from scratch, to make sure nothing looked remotely modern. The whole idea of this is fascinating, Jackson's commitment to (every detail of) the movie was unbelievably 100%+.

[JenB]

No, Aragorn didn't exist for a while, certainly not in Sil. The Numenoreans existed, in some form, and many of his ancestors were there - but Aragorn doesn't really come into Sil. Actually, there's very little there about the "players" from LotR, because that's already covered in depth. It doesn't even have the word 'hobbit' in it!

It's interesting to see the evolution of the character that would become Aragorn. Even after he'd become human, he bore the name 'Trotter' for a while. Thankfully that was dropped! I could see Merry and Pippin trying not to laugh... ("Trotter? Your name's Trotter? And people say Hobbits have funny names!")

[DonnerT]

It's interesting to see the evolution of the character that would become Aragorn. Even after he'd become human, he bore the name 'Trotter' for a while.

I thought Strider was a descendant of Isildur and though of Numenorian blood not immortal. Straighten me out here.

[Overtaxed]

Did the movie have the inn keeper introducing Dwarves and other Hobbits? I don't recall.

Butterbur didn't introduce anyone except Strider and only after Frodo asked about him

[Overtaxed]

I thought Strider was a descendant of Isildur and though of Numenorian blood not immortal. Straighten me out here.

The Trotter thing was back in the story development stages when Tolkien was getting his characters "in a row." This weekend I've managed to borrow The History of the Lord of the Rings for an indefinite length of time. So assuming I'm not spending all my time online, I'll be reading the whole epic development process.

[Sam Cree]

Thank you, JenB, I am humbled by the depth of the knowledge of some of the posters here.

I do find that LOTR ages well, though, as more and more of its depth and background become apparent.

[allthatisgolddoesnotglitter]

Thanks for the ping! Sorry it's been so long....really busy here.

[Penny1]

I'm going to be a naughty hobbit and comment on this part of the book even though I haven't done my reading. :o

I really liked the way PJ captured this part in the movie, even the rain. And btw, at least part of the reason for the rain is because it rains A LOT on NZ South Island, or so I've heard. But I like the atmosphere it gave, because it seemed like in the book that it was a somewhat dark place, especially in contrast to the Shire. If you think about it, it's very startling in the movie when we go from the very lush, green, sunny Shire to the dark raininess of Bree. And it's also interesting that PJ chose to never show Bree during the daylight. I hadn't thought of that till just now.

I also loved the introduction of Strider in the common room--straight out of the book that was. The only quibble I have with PJ, and it's just a minor one, is the way Aragorn was throwing Frodo around when they first met. That was a bit jarring to me at first. I understand the drama of it, and maybe it does work better for a movie to have him acting that way, but it did seem very strange for the character. And it's very different from the way Aragorn treats Frodo and the other hobbits after Rivendell.

[HairOfTheDog]

Mid-stream-change-of-format Green Dragon PING

Trying out a slight loosening of The Green Dragon format… to hopefully lead to broader discussion of some of the events in the books. From here on out, rather than strictly obeying Chapters, we have decided to group the chapters into larger sections that cover a series of related events in the story, but can span a few chapters as they develop, and may not cleanly follow chapter breaks. We will still cover roughly one section per week, unless by chance the discussion is still hopping, in which case we will wait.

Yes, we are speeding things up some, but I hope folk will keep up with the new schedule, and hopefully those who are eager to move faster will be satisfied! (At this schedule we also hope to be able to get through The Two Towers before Christmas(!) and many of us are eager to start talking about that…

New weekly topics:
Bree (chapters 9-11) Continuing now!
Journey from Bree to the Ford (contained in chapters 11-12) This coming Friday:!
Rivendell (Book 2 - chapters 1-3)
The Ring goes South (chapters 3-4)
Moria(chapters 4-5)
Lothlorien (chapters 6-8)
The Breaking of the Fellowship (chapters 9-10)

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Fellowship of the Ring

Topic: Bree

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken
The crownless again shall be king.

Pertinent Chapters (all or part)
Chapter IX – At the Sign of the Prancing Pony
Chapter X – Strider
Chapter XI – A Knife in the Dark (first part)

Movie Pictures-Arrival in Bree

And here is ecurbh’s Timeline if you would like to keep track of what day it is as we go!

And here is a Map of Middle-Earth So we don't get lost!

Index to thread… click link to find the start of each prior chapter discussion:
(First Five chapters are re-posts of highlights from the old forum)

Prologue and Chapter One – A Long-Expected Party
Chapter Two - The Shadow of the Past
Chapter Three – Three is Company … And also here – double post! ugh!
Chapter Four – A Shortcut to Mushrooms
Chapter Five – A Conspiracy Unmasked
End of re-posts

Chapter Six – The Old Forest
Chapter Seven – In The House of Tom Bombadil
Chapter Eight – Fog on the Barrow-Downs
Chapter Nine – At the Sign of the Prancing Pony

Let us talk more about Strider then shall we? I love the way Bree, and the introduction of Aragorn played in the movie. I do miss, though the part about Barliman and the note from Gandalf. "I hope Butterbur sends this promptly… If he forgets, I shall roast him."

[JenB]

Excellent! I will think hard about this while in class, there's plenty I could say about Aragorn. Um, we'd better be restrained and not post a lot of pictures here, since we're trying to keep this thread from getting cluttered with stuff.

To hopefully start some discussion: Aragorn is really cool. Book or movie, the way he comes into the story is equally dramatic. He seems incredibly self-assured next to poor doubting Frodo. He's an adventurer; what these hobbits have been struggling with for the past few days is his whole life. He knows what hunts them, and he's still willing - insistant - on taking care of them. But he is still a bit of a sinister character, kind of like all of Bree. It's sort of on the edge of the wild. Nobody's quite as nice as they are in the Shire. The nicest person is Butterburr, who'd probably be more worried than he is if he had any idea what was really going on...

[HairOfTheDog]

Yes, I agree, I like the roughness of Aragorn when he is introduced, both in the book and in the film. (OK there is a lot I like about Aragorn, but I am talking character here)

I was about to respond to Penny's post from this morning on this very topic...

Penny: The only quibble I have with PJ, and it's just a minor one, is the way Aragorn was throwing Frodo around when they first met...

I don't quibble with the way Strider grabbed Frodo at all... I liked the way it was done... "hmmm... who is this guy? he's something to contend with! When the hobbits bust in and he draws his sword... "Okay then! - Here's a guy that can keep these kids out of trouble!"

I like the dialogue in the film, captures that roughness...
Strider: You draw far too much attention to yourself, Mr Underhill.
Frodo: What do you want?
Strider: A little more caution from you, that is no trinket you carry.
Frodo: I carry nothing.
Strider: Indeed.... (continued... movie script)

[Penny1]

I would have been fine with it, except shoving him up the stairs and then shoving/throwing him across the room onto the floor was a bit much...especially since Frodo is so much smaller than Aragorn.

[Penny1]

PS, I did love the moment where he drew his sword when the other hobbits burst in. You did get that feeling that he would be a great protector for them, and it was a nice dramatic moment to drive home his commitment to protecting Frodo. It was that moment where you say, "okay, good, he's on their side after all."

Of course, if you read the book you knew that already, but it still made a nice moment...

[BibChr]

The movie is missing one of my favorite exchanges. It's where Sam says (from memory), "This Strider, 'e says be more careful. I say let's start with 'im!" Then Frodo says that he thinks that an agent of the Enemy would "seem fair but feel foul," whereupon Strider laughs grimly and says, "whereas I seem foul and feel fair, is that it?"

I also like where Strider (in the book) says about the Wraiths, "They are terrible!" — and looks like he's remembering the time someone pulled his spine out and beat him with it.

But the movie catches that feeling pretty darned nicely with Strider's, "Are you frightened?"
Frodo: "Yes."
Strider: "Not nearly frightened enough. I know what is hunting you."

Dan

[BornOnTheFourth]

Thanks for the ping. I just finished the Return on the King yesterday. I was breathless. WOW.

Now I can really read the threads! LOL. Time permitting, of course!

[HairOfTheDog]

Desperate times called for desperate measures... Strider needed to get Frodo out of there in a hurry!

OK, so it was a little abrupt, but there was no harm done...

From that hurried grab on, Aragorn treats Frodo and the other hobbits with respect and grace. He is a classy leader in his rough clothes. The best kind... He talks to them as equals, addresses them as "gentlemen" (as opposed to little ones). While leading he is indeed serving.

One of the quibbles I have with Tolkien in this part of the dialogue is where Aragorn whines that "I hoped you would take t me for my own sake. A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust and longs for friendship"... Pulease! Everybody hug your lonely Ranger today!