Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn) II

[Overtaxed]

Yes, but he was an only child and out of uncles and cousins. It seems to me that he could have noticed that the list of heirs was growing thin.

Anyway, after Gil-Galad's death, most of the Noldor looked either to Celeborn and Galadriel (who was Gil-Galad's aunt anyway) or Elrond, who was Gil-Galad's cousin by marriage. Maybe that's the reason why Elrond has Gil-Galad's ring... he was the closest, or most suitable, heir.

Apparently they weren't up to the task, because the kingdom was no more. :)

[Overtaxed]

I forgot to add that after Gil-Galad's death, the Exiles were pardoned and most went home.

So everything's just hunky-dory, I suppose. :D

But then again, the Elves shouldn't have been in Middle Earth to begin with, shouldn't they.

[JenB]

Should the Elves have been in Middle-Earth? Yes and no... it's pretty clear that the Valar should not have summonsed the Elves to Valinor, but once there, it wasn't that they were forbidden to leave. They just sort of left in a hurry, without asking permission. And then they wouldn't come back... saying they shouldn't have been there is silly, because there were always Elves in Middle-Earth. For a while there were no High Elves, because they were all in Valinor, but there were Moriquendi, and Thingol's Elves. And if they hadn't come back we'd have none of these pretty stories and songs, including LotR. Well, we might have Beren and Luthien, but it would be missing a couple bits.

[Overtaxed]

They just sort of left in a hurry, without asking permission. And then they wouldn't come back... saying they shouldn't have been there is silly, because there were always Elves in Middle-Earth.

I was uncertain about whether they (Elves) were supposed to be in ME. It's my understanding that the ones who didn't move to Valinor eventually became...orc-material. Or at least some of the Avari were. Do we have any stories about "non-orc precursor" Avari?

[Overtaxed]

They just sort of left in a hurry, without asking permission. And then they wouldn't come back... saying they shouldn't have been there is silly, because there were always Elves in Middle-Earth.

I was uncertain about whether they (Elves) were supposed to be in ME. It's my understanding that the ones who didn't move to Valinor eventually became...orc-material. Or at least some of the Avari were. Do we have any stories about "non-orc precursor" Avari?

[Overtaxed]

Leaving work now and leaving this spastic network behind! :)

[JenB]

No... well, the unfortunate orc-material Elves were captured long before there were any divisions of Elfkind. Later there were a whole bunch of splits (almost as bad as a denomination!) but there were two main splits - into Moriquendi and Calaquendi - Elves of the Dark and Elves of the Light. The Moriquendi include the Avari (Unwilling, those who completely refused to go to Valinor) and the Umanyar(very rarely used grouping, means they started off but never got there. Most of these were originally Teleri, but now Teleri refers to one of the three branches of the Eldar.

The Calaquendi, or Eldar, are broken into the Vanyar (Fair Elves, sometimes Light Elves), the Noldor ("Deep Elves", our good friends), and the Teleri (Sea-Elves).

Got it? There will be a quiz... as long as I'm throwing out Elf-names, Eldar means People of the Stars, and refers only to the Elves of the Journey. So Thingol could be considered an Eldar, and he's granted Calaquendi status because he went to Valinor once, but he rules Sindar, which are Teleri/Umanyar/Moriquendi.

I think we just ran into "too many names" syndrome again.

[fire and forget]

Amazing isn't it that Tolkien created and populated a world so complex, and yet so consistent, that intelligent people are still arguing about it today much the same way many of the world's brightest still argue about pre-historic societies?

Tolkien would be delighted.

[JenB]

Actually I have a sneaking suspicion that he would be living in South America under an assumed name to avoid us freaky geeks....

[Overtaxed]

I think we just ran into "too many names" syndrome again.

And too many migrations. They start out in ME, leave, come back, and now they're leaving again. cutting and running must fit in there somewhere. :)

[TBP]

One thing that I noted that should appeal greatly to FReepers. Frodo is the one chosen to take the ring back to MOrdor and destroy it because he is the one character who won't use its power, and its power slightly corrupts everyone who uses it even a little.

Putting the instrument of power in the hands of the one(s) who don't want it and won't use it on others is a very conservative concept.

[HairOfTheDog]

Very true... The ring will corrupt all who possess and use it, but hobbits slower than most.

The corrupting influence of the ring is in proportion to the bearer's desire for power.

Hobbits neither have nor desire power over others... so they are able to bear this ring much longer before it corrupts them.

And so the ring's affect is much more dangerous for those who already have a lot of personal power, such as Gandalf (who dares not even touch it) and also for others (whom it would be off-topic to mention yet) who have ambitions for power.

Aragorn is one who has ambitions to power, but also the virtues of restraint and wisdom. He knows from his own family history the corrupting nature of the ring, and rather than seek to bear it, lest it corrupt him, he instead assists by protecting its bearer in its destruction. The failure of his forefather to destroy the ring has led to the current threat, and so Aragorn's part in the fellowship is more personal than it is for the others.

[cantbebought]

I was only joking about the bashing, really....Uhm, what kind of snacks do we get over in Tooks corner?.

My original question was to see if there was an explination in the Lost Tales or JRRT Letters. My theory is that they lost so many Elves (including Gil-galad) that, like Arnor, only worse, the Elf Kingdom could no longer sustain itself. The few survivors that didn't bug out to the West would have settled with Elrond or Cirdan. Lorien was home of the Silvan Elves and they 'imported' Galadriel (Noldor) and Celeborn (Sindar) to rule after Amroth was lost at sea.

[JenB]

Wings and pints in Took's Corner!

The Elves did lose a lot of people, and then a lot more went home. I think after a while they missed Valinor, a lot of them. The ones who are left by LotR are mostly those who really love Middle-Earth. And Galadriel who's stubborn.

[Restorer]

Yes and no... it's pretty clear that the Valar should not have summonsed the Elves to Valinor, but once there, it wasn't that they were forbidden to leave. They just sort of left in a hurry, without asking permission.

It is true they weren't forbidden to leave. But then they dramatically screwed up the process of leaving. They attacked and slaughtered the Vanyar, their own kin, to get their ships.

The ones under Fingolfin, marching north along the shore, were confronted by Mandos who ordered them to return to Valinor to face judgment for their crimes or to be cursed as rebels. A few returned, but most continued onward. These were the ones who had to gain forgiveness before they were allowed to return to Valinor.

[JenB]

Mmm... they killed the Teleri, not the Vanyar, for the ships. And that was on the part of Feanor and his folk, not the people of Fingolfin. (There were fewer of these and they were at the back of the march, I think they actually stopped to pack). You're right, that the Doom of Mandos prevented them from returning until it was later lifted. By the time of LotR, the Ban was long gone, except for Galadriel, and that was because she herself had refused to accept the Ban being lifted from her. That sounds confusing but I think you understand what I mean.

I lost the thread of this conversation. Is there a point we're supposed to be making or is it just Fun Elf History Trivia night at the Green Dragon?

[Restorer]

You're right. Teleri, not Vanyar.

(I'm on the road and don't have any books with me to check names.)

What do you mean, a long time ago? Only 6,000 years or so!

[cantbebought]

Hey, I resemble that remark!

[cantbebought]

No point. I just took off on Sam's recital of The Fall of Gil-galad to ask a question.

Now, back to our regular programing....

[Overtaxed]

Is there a point we're supposed to be making or is it just Fun Elf History Trivia night at the Green Dragon?

Jeopardy night at the Dragon. The topic....Elf history. :)