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Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn) II

Posted on 03/15/2002 6:54:33 AM PST by HairOfTheDog

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To: Overtaxed
Thinking about it, maybe PJ did a better job of character development than Tolkien did. In the book the whole work with Boromir is to show his allegiance to Gondor and his warrior status in Rivendell, then he is a strong brave man on the trek, and finally when they (spoiler alert) start down the Anduin from Lorien he starts obsessing about the ring, paddling up close to Frodo's boat, mumbling.

PJ uses the scene with the hobbits to wrap everything up and show that the ring is going to succumb. I would have liked to see it take a little longer, but then we get back to the seven hour movie that makes a dollar forty-seven cents.

541 posted on 05/09/2002 12:39:12 PM PDT by doubled
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To: doubled
PJ uses the scene with the hobbits to wrap everything up and show that the ring is going to succumb

Should be

...that he is going to succumb to the ring.

542 posted on 05/09/2002 12:42:29 PM PDT by doubled
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To: doubled
:) I knew what you meant.
543 posted on 05/09/2002 12:47:00 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: Overtaxed
I know most people on this thread would be forgiving, but if some grammar policeman came through I wanted to be ready.
544 posted on 05/09/2002 12:50:49 PM PDT by doubled
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To: doubled
Yeah...Admin Moderator can really be tough sometimes!
545 posted on 05/09/2002 12:52:39 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: Penny1
I think the point PJ might be trying to get across is that it is the relationships the characters have with one another that is the only thing that can keep any of them from falling to the temptation of the ring. I liked how he brought that idea out in the story, and I particularly liked that scene with Boromir on the mountain. It's one of my favorite scenes in the whole movie.

The importance of relationships may be why Boromir fell later on--he didn't really form any close relationships with any of the Fellowship in the book, and his attachments in the movie specifically excluded Frodo.

That is really well put. The loyalty to each other has to be stronger than the pull of the ring, or evil wins... Boromir never particularly bonded with Frodo, or the cause. His motives never ceased being his own agenda, and followed the fellowship only so far as the mission followed his own.

I have a feeling Sam, Merry and Pippin have no particular commitment to the mission, but a deep commitment only to their friend. Frodo is safest with them. They have no personal ambition for evil to get a foothold in.

Aragorn, on the other hand, felt duty to the mission, and perhaps a personal bond with Frodo. His will is strong, but his mettle could perhaps be more tested than the others because of his ambition.

The weaknesses that could have been exploited in Legolas and Gimli are unknown.

546 posted on 05/09/2002 1:11:01 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: Overtaxed;Doubled;ksen
You guys still around?... I meant the above to be a reply to all... for your consideration...
547 posted on 05/09/2002 1:46:03 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
I'm home now!

The Ring could have tempted Gimli with the prospect of regaining Khazad-Dum. Legolas...could have been tempted to set up a cookie factory in some hollow tree in Mirkwood!

548 posted on 05/09/2002 1:59:19 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: Overtaxed
One word:

Corner

549 posted on 05/09/2002 2:03:27 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: Overtaxed
The Ring could have tempted Gimli with the prospect of regaining Khazad-Dum. Legolas...could have been tempted to set up a cookie factory in some hollow tree in Mirkwood!

nyuk! nyuk! nyuk! (Highlight to read)

-Kevin

550 posted on 05/09/2002 2:05:22 PM PDT by ksen
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To: HairOfTheDog
Hehehe...I'll bring the pints, the wings, and the Fudge Stripes. :)
551 posted on 05/09/2002 2:05:43 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: Overtaxed
We don't know about Legolas and Gimli do we? - Tolkien did not really tell us what might cause them to fail. He had already set up Boromir to be the fall guy. They were let off the hook by their creator, apparently. He hints that the rest of them would fail, but didn't feel the need to expand on it.
552 posted on 05/09/2002 2:06:06 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog;Overtaxed
One word:

Or to paraphrase Shrek:

All right Hobbit! You're headed the right way for a smart bottom.

-Kevin

553 posted on 05/09/2002 2:07:32 PM PDT by ksen
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To: ksen
Soitanly!
554 posted on 05/09/2002 2:08:23 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: HairOfTheDog;Penny1
He hints that the rest of them would fail, but didn't feel the need to expand on it.

Penny1 is reading his letters, maybe she'll know if Tolkien addressed this somewhere in there.

-Kevin

555 posted on 05/09/2002 2:09:24 PM PDT by ksen
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To: ksen
I think I read something last night that said no one would have been able to resist the ring, but nothing specifically related to Legolas and Gimli.

But then, I only just got them and have barely scratched the surface...

556 posted on 05/09/2002 2:11:35 PM PDT by Penny1
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To: HairOfTheDog
He hints that the rest of them would fail, but didn't feel the need to expand on it.

Expanding on it would just be a repetition of the "failure theme" he took with Boromir. It seems to me that with Legolas and Gimli he chose to do the "individuals-from-peoples-who-don't-trust-each-other-become-fast-friends" theme.

557 posted on 05/09/2002 2:13:46 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: Overtaxed
Here's my take on the "failure" theme...

I think Boromir's failure is to cause the reader to ask himself the question, "would I be able to resist?"

Are we highlighting book spoilers here? Highlight below to read: Frodo's failure is the answer that question--that no one would be able to resist. If he couldn't, a simple hobbit from the Shire with no ambitions to anything but duty, no one could if put to the test.

558 posted on 05/09/2002 2:25:32 PM PDT by Penny1
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To: Overtaxed;JenB
Yes, they already had a function in the group. Anything else happen in this segment of the journey?

I am reading the section in the beginning of A Journey in the Dark where they are dealing with the wargs... this is really good writing:

'My heart's right down in my toes, Mr. Pippin,' said Sam. 'But we aren't etten yet, and there are some stout folk here with us. Whatever may be in store for old Gandalf, I'll wager it isn't a wolf's belly.'...

...Gandalf stood up and strode forward, holding his staff aloft. 'Listen, Hound of Sauron! ' he cried. `Gandalf is here. Fly, if you value your foul skin! I will shrivel you from tail to snout, if you come within this ring.'

The wolf snarled and sprang towards them with a great leap. At that moment there was a sharp twang. Legolas had loosed his bow. There was a hideous yell, and the leaping shape thudded to the ground; the elvish arrow had pierced its throat. The watching eyes were suddenly extinguished. Gandalf and Aragorn strode forward, but the hill was deserted; the hunting packs had fled. All about them the darkness grew silent, and no cry came on the sighing wind...

...In the leaping light, as the fresh wood blazed up, Frodo saw many grey shapes spring over the ring of stones. More and more followed. Through the throat of one huge leader Aragorn passed his sword with a thrust; with a great sweep Boromir hewed the head off another. Beside them Gimli stood with his stout legs apart, wielding his dwarf-axe. The bow of Legolas was singing.

In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.

`Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!' he cried.

There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light. The swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered. The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain. All the others fled. Slowly the fire died till nothing was left but falling ash and sparks; a bitter smoke curled above the burned tree-stumps, and blew darkly from the hill, as the first light of dawn came dimly in the sky. Their enemies were routed and did not return.

`What did I tell you, Mr. Pippin? ' said Sam, sheathing his sword. `Wolves won't get him. That was an eye-opener, and no mistake! Nearly singed the hair off my head!'

I just love the dialogue... makes it hard to know when to stop with the cutting and pasting... hehehe

Jen... what exactly did Gandalf say to the wargs up there?

559 posted on 05/09/2002 2:25:39 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
what exactly did Gandalf say to the wargs up there?

Bad dogs! Bad! Why not? I'm already in the Corner!

560 posted on 05/09/2002 5:46:49 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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