Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn) II

[HairOfTheDog]

Or feels anger and jealousy of anything that can still move freely, if he was once freer to do so. I think he is an Ent gone treeish myself.

[allthatisgolddoesnotglitter]

I agree with you on the tree issue. Is there any evidence to support that there may have been any tree Maiar?

[Overtaxed]

Why on earth Merry, Pippin, and Frodo decide to rest against a tree after traveling through a hostile forest? Even a Took should have better sense!

[HairOfTheDog]

And notice how reserved we are being about talking Bombadil? - we are going to be with him for two weeks you know.

For me, I look forward to visiting Tom again. He has dropped off the radar screen since we have all accepted that he is not in the film. This is the first part of our discussion that will be purely the book as a subject.

And I will be needing to get ready to go meet Penny soon. We are seeing the film at the matinee in two hours.

[Overtaxed]

So, Hair. Is Tom one of the Valar?

[HairOfTheDog]

Jen is our resident historian of all things Tolkien. She has proposed a surprising (hehehe to me) theory here, and if she can find anything in her volumes to support it, I imagine she will ;~D

[HairOfTheDog]

I don't know what Tom is yet. He is the master. Whatever that means :~D

[doubled]

And someone here thought the elves were out of touch and unhelpful. Tom can't be bothered with anything that goes on outside of his "realm." He is happy with his lady and controls all that takes place inside his borders. Are those borders self imposed or not? He does protect wanderers that come into his area of influence, but he does not seek any news of the outside world although he does have some contact and like the elves he can learn things from the trees, plants, and animals. He does not seek to use his 'songs' to change the character of the forest he just lets it be and he just is, living with his environment and only exerting that control when necessary. Is he always around when someone gets into trouble even though he says he just happens to be on that trail or was this just another instance when fate took a hand. Do other beings get caught by Old Man Willow and their stories end?

Just some mussings and very few answers.

[JenB]

Tom is not a Valar, whatever he is. There are only a certain number of Valar (15, I think) all of whom are named and given specific jobs. It is possible he is a Maia gone wild - that's a common suggestion and it makes some sense There is this passage in The Silmarillion

"Then the thought of Yavanna will awake also and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and olvar (plants and animals), and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young."

This is about the ents, mostly, but it could also refer to Bombadil... why else mention the animals as well as the plants? Tolkien left Bombadil as a deliberate mystery, you know; like the Balrog's wings, we can discuss it forever without coming up with an answer. But this passage certainly could apply to Old Man Willow, too.

[doubled]

That should be, "Just some musings. . ."

[Overtaxed]

But if Gandalf,Saruman, and Sauron were all Maiar and affected by the power of the ring, shouldn't Bombadil be affected by it too? Am I straying into the Corner again?

[JenB]

It's possible that Bombadil is not affected by the Ring because he doesn't want anything. Gandalf wants Sauron gone, and ME free; Sauron and Saruman want power; others simply want the Ring itself. Bombadil wants nothing that he does not have, that's pretty clear. He's happy where he is.

But I admit, the idea that Bombadil is a Maia is almost as weak as some of the crazier ideas about Bombadil. (Bombadil is Iluvatar, Bombadil is Tolkien himself, Bombadil is a hallucination, Bombadil is the Witch-King of Angmar... every one of these theories has its proponents, you know.)

[Overtaxed]

Not the Witch-King of Angmar! Bad guys don't help out good guys or good hobbits.

[HairOfTheDog]

It's possible that Bombadil is not affected by the Ring because he doesn't want anything

You are both straying too far, but then I brought up Ents, so we are all in tooks corner today...

But as long as you bring it up, I like this interpretation.

[JenB]

Hey, we're discussing Bombadil, mostly - that's well within chapter limits. And I didn't start with the Ents. Other than Bombadil, and the Old Forest itself, there really isn't as much to debate in this chapter. We could talk about the character development, I suppose - Merry seems pretty self-assured, and Sam really doesn't like the trees much, I think.

Have fun at the movies!

[Overtaxed]

You are both straying too far

I did it for the wings! :)

[Countyline]

Trees ... to be in a forest is quite an experience. Primal and such quiet. Entering a glade is idyllic, in the deep shade it is a bit ominous, ... in the presence of old trees the forest has the majesty of a sacred place, its silence is magnified and its own sounds are as well. Man is dwarfed in the presence of trees. I love to hike for an hour or so and then my inner yearning says ... "turn around and leave now". I am much more comfortable if there are others with me for companionship.

Perhaps trees are a perfect metaphor for our subconscious projections ... at once majestic and threatening. What do you think?

[HairOfTheDog]

At this point Merry is leading. I think as the captain of the conspirators, leaving Frodo no choice in the matter, Merry became the most in charge for this leg of the journey. And also because he knows more about the forest than the others (which is not saying much).

At least I read Merry to be leading. I will look for signs of exactly when Frodo begins to become more in charge. At this point, he has never considered that he is leading anything, he expected all along that he would have Gandalf to know what to do, and absent Gandalf, Merry appears to have a plan.

[JenB]

Frodo is very depressed, I think. He's finally left the Shire and he doesn't believe he'll ever return. His friends coming along both cheered him up and worried him, because now he's responsible, in a way, for them too. Frodo doesn't lead anywhere at all in the whole first book. His journey is not primarily an outward one, but inward. He may face physical hardships but it is the spiritual battles that will most injury him. I'd like to say more but I'm in the corner anyway and don't want to get banished further. Anyway this whole spiritual battle, IMO, has already started, and he feels it.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think forests are bigger than we are, older, stronger, and things dwell there that are better designed to live there than we are. We are low-man on the totem pole in the woods, and the critters and woods have the advantage. That bothers some folk. Not me, my horse always knows the way home. I am the passenger of a companion that is my better in that department.