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Thanks for the link. I'll look it over. What I would say is that voter fraud is theft at a grand scale. It is theft against all Americans. Whether it has come to be recognized part of our society or not, I hope we can agree that theft of any form is inappropriate in civil society.

It is also apparent that both parties, the Democrats and Republicans have both been guilty of electon fraud. I think it is sad that has taken place, and simply reflects a breakdown of moral values due to greed. I have no desire to debate which party did it more or not, and it is unlikely that any of you (and certainly nobody I know) ever participated in it.

These electronic systems could help make that easier, for whoever controls them. We, as Americans, find ourselves at a point where we can make a stand against that breakdown.

I'm here in hopes of finding people who will stand with me and oppose unverifiable elections.

I am also quite concerned about computerized voting. It's like giving the Daley machine access to voting everywhere. Or conceivably a techie of Republican(rare in my experience) bent and in the right position could move 1.5% of the vote everywhere.

With the butterfly ballots and the voting machines, vote manipulation is a task for armies of operatives. Votes have to be physically changed by throwing away ballots or pushing rods through piles of ballots, etc.It is alocal thing and not amenable to a national effort. With the computers it only takes one manipulator and the evidence that always exists even when ignored by the press and the law, i.e. vote counters in the trunk of an operative's car, boxes of ballots in someone's garage, multiple signatures, signatures of dead people, v.v., does not exist at all in computer voting fraud. It can be a couple of lines of code that no one but the programmer can see. Maybe a hacker can do the deed and the damage may be visible but there is no way to rectify the result or even to know what the damage was. As voting migrates to the internet I can't see how any real control can be exerted to keep it honest at all.

Butterfly ballots are far superior in respect of actual fraud and political machines will figure out how to rip off an election no matter what. It will just be so much harder to get caught with computer voting. It tempts the big boys to get into it because the problem can ultimately be a national program rather than many local problems.

The temptation is to think that this Democrat is just trying to slide something over on the Republicans by trying to get back the old methods used so profitibly by the Crat big citymachines but the truth is that there are many Crats who are truly convinced that the vote in Broward/Dade 2000 was rigged by Republicans and they think W will use the opportunity to screw the Crats.

Few Democrats are capable of connecting results with actually visible and obvious causes and they do think that the 5 Republicans in Dade managed to steal the election. I know people like that, intelligent people(as measured by IQ but hey....).

Well if you are really honest about fighting voting fraud, you'll fight to clean up your own party. You say both parties engage in vote fraud. While in one way that is true, that is like saying if a Republican gets a speeding ticket and a Democrat has 20 convictions for fraud, theft, extortion, robbery and rape, that 'Both parties have had trouble with the law.' Technically true, but completely misleading, devoid of perspective or context.

Sorry, but AT LEAST 80% of vote fraud cases that I've run across have been Democrat schemes. Systematic corruption, most prevelant in big cities or single-party dominated areas, which are almost always dominated by the Dems.

Don't get me wrong, I hate corruption, no matter what the party. If I were in New Jersey I'd be pretty bummed. But as a whole, vote fraud is the domain of one party, and that party's current leadership seems intent on entrenching more fraud schemes. Which party has fought tooth and nail against cleaning up voter rolls(purging the names of the dead and moved)? Which party has fought tooth and nail against photo id's for voting, or any other measure that reduces the ability to vote using a false name? Which party has fought tooth and nail to give licenses to illegal immigrants, while simultaneously weakening the safeguards that would prevent them from illegally voting? Which party routinely sends its operatives through nursing homes, 'assisting' mentally incompetent residents with their vote?

Which party was Becky Red Earth working for when she was arrested for running a vote fraud scheme on Indian reservations in the critical 2002 South Dakota Senate race, where lo and behold, several reservations had 'counting malfunctions', only delivering there totals after all the other counts were in, and just so happening to put the Dem, who had been trailing in the Senate race, over the top to win by a couple of hundred votes? Which party controls politics in San Francisco, where in 2000 ballot boxes(complete with ballots in them) were found floating in SF Bay? Which party's candidate did college students in Wisconsin vote for, when they bragged that they voted multiple times in the 2000 election(Gore won WI by only 6000 votes)? Which party had an operative busted in Milwaukee for handing out cigarettes and other goodies to the homeless to get them to vote? Which party had a hack judge of the Clay machine issue an order to keep the polls open after hours in heavily Dem areas of St. Louis during the 2000 election(where Ashcroft lost the Senate race by just a few thousand votes), apparently pre-planned because black-oriented radio stations were running ads the day before the ruling saying the polls would be open late? Which party designed the butterfly ballot? Which party ran the election commissions in almost every Florida county that had problems in 2000? Which party dominated the precinct in Houston where an election official was caught on camera climbing into a limo with a ballot box and driving several times around the city's beltway freeway before finally hours later delivering the ballots to the counting headquarters? Which party in 2000 had Richard Daley(you know, of Chicago, legendary for its systematic corruption and vote fraud) in charge of its candidates campaign? Which party screamed over, cried racism, and fought the removal of Miriam Oliphant in Broward County, who botched several elections, and refused to implement reforms?

All of the above are examples of systematic vote fraud schemes, and all employed by Democrats. You do realize that one of the findings coming out of the media recount in Florida was that the group(by far) most likely to have had their vote nullified by overvoting were GOP votes in black precincts run by Democrat election staff. 50 TIMES MORE LIKELY. OBTW, overvoting is an easy way of vote fraud with punch card ballots(which were used in those cases), because you simply grab a stack, punch through them with some type of pin, and bingo, you've invalidated plenty of votes for your opponent. Systematic vote fraud. And which party usually gets a pass from the media when their schemes are exposed?

So perhaps you can understand my extreme skepticism that a) The GOP would engage in systematic vote fraud
b) The GOP would even consider that it could get away with such
c) That the GOP would actually get away with such, given such media bias and scrutiny
d) That there is any problem with electronic voting that will purposefully benefit the GOP

But hey, if there really are problems, lets fix them. I care not a whit what your ideology is, as long as you are honest and don't turn a blind eye towards one side. But when it comes to vote fraud, so far it has been almost completely a one party problem. Clean up the Democrat party. And OBTW, if Howard Dean really is bringing in outsiders to the Iowa caucuses, then he is no outsider, just another Dem con man. If you want real reform in the Democratic party, if you really want to clean it up, look to men of integrity, such as Sam Nunn or Clark Howard(google his name and WSB in Atlanta, from what I hear he is a Dem, but an honest one).