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How the FairTax Will Renew America (FairTax Thread #3 -Health Care)
July 9th ,2004 | Remember_Salamis

Posted on 07/09/2004 10:16:17 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis

Edited on 07/10/2004 10:19:00 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

Thread 1 Investment

Thread 2 Manufacturing

How the FairTax Will Renew America

By Remember_Salamis (My Name Removed) Citizens for a New Contract with America

We must replace the income tax with a national retail sales tax (NRST), also known as the FairTax. This can be accomplished by passing the Fair Tax Act of 2003, known in the House as HR 25 and in the Senate as S 1493. The FairTax would replace all income and payroll taxes for both individuals and businesses with a tax-inclusive 23% NRST. Only goods and services purchased at the retail level would be taxed, while all goods and services purchased by businesses would not be. Because taxes will only be collected at the sales counter, there will no longer be any capital gains taxes on savings and investment. In order to ensure that we don’t end up with an income tax and a NRST, we must also repeal the 16th Amendment.

Health Care

The US health care system is the most inefficient in the industrialized world, spending over 15% of GDP on it, compared with only half of that (7.4%) in Japan. That’s over $5440 for every American! While we spend so much, we receive so little: the Japanese life expectancy is 4 years longer (80.2) and their infant mortality rate is 2½ points lower. However, there are many causes to our inefficient system, ranging from a lack of competition, to high insurance costs, to the poor application of the information technology revolution in the field of medicine. Like many of our nation’s problems the answer lies in scrapping the income tax.

After implementation of the FairTax, all forms of corporate welfare will be eliminated; corporations will no longer receive tax breaks for giving employees health insurance. As a result, companies can either negotiate with healthcare providers for a lower price, let employees pay for their own health insurance, or provide nothing. Although some would keep their current benefits system, most would decide to give their employees extra money in their paycheck and let them pick their own health care plan. It is highly unlikely that companies currently offering benefits would choose to do neither. Disgruntled employees would either reduce productivity or quit and cost a lot to replace.

The new system would be consumer-driven, with cost-conscious consumers making their own decisions for their own well-being. Just like employers have moved from the unaffordable “defined pension plan” to the affordable 401(k), so too will employers soon shift the burden of choice to their employee.

Here’s one likely scenario: Company (A) has 1000 employees. It costs $500/mo. for each employee’s health insurance. Under the current system, the company writes off $6M on its taxes each year for providing health insurance to its workers. As a result, the company saves $2M in taxes a year (at a 33.33% tax rate) by deducting the health coverage from their taxes. Over the past few decades, employees have used this tax break to pass on potential higher wage to their employees in the form of bigger health care plans.

Under the FairTax, Company (A) would no longer receive a $2M tax break. As a result, the company can either spend an additional $2M a year on health insurance or pass on the remaining sum, $4M, onto its employees at a rate of $333/mo. per employee. This is the most likely option because it’s the cheapest for the company. The employee now has $333 to go and find health coverage in the open market. Of course, they could always provide no coverage but that would be like giving your entire company a pay cut, and many states even have laws against such practices. The employee now has $333 to go and find health coverage in the open market. Insurance carriers will compete for his business driving down prices while allowing the employee to choose the plan that works best for him and his family. Future wage increases would show up in their paychecks, not in the form of bigger health care plans.

Under the current system, the price of goods and services are inflated 20-30% due to imbedded taxes. After implementation of the FairTax, this would go away. With a drop in price of 20-30%, US drug makers would be able to sell a lot more drugs overseas (the drop in prices would essentially be replaced by the FairTax on drugs sold in the US). There is strong evidence that US drug makers are supplementing depressed profits overseas with higher drug costs domestically. This is due largely to hefty price controls imposed by socialized healthcare systems overseas and America’s brutal corporate tax rate on American exporters (the US is the only nation that taxes profits made overseas as well as domestically). Bottom Line: increased profits overseas will probably cause prices at home to drop.

There is very little cost awareness among insured consumers of health care services. If the cost of consuming a good is relatively low, consumers will generally consume more of them! This is especially true if a consumer gains little financially from minimizing their consumption. This is precisely the case in the healthcare industry, and it should be fixed by making American consumers, already cost-conscious in other facets of life, become cost-conscious about healthcare costs. This can only be done by making consumers pick their own healthcare plans.

Americans should choose the policy that best fits them. Some individuals might decide to purchase high deductible policies, minimize their use of health care, or countless other decisions. Introducing more aggressive price competition to the health care marketplace will lower prices and give consumers more “bang for their buck”. Eliminating employer motives to give employees a “cookie cutter” health plan by eliminating the tax advantage of doing so will go a long way towards opening the market up to competition.


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KEYWORDS: axixofevil; care; fairtax; health; healthcare; q; tax; taxes; taxreform
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1 posted on 07/09/2004 10:16:17 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis
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To: Remember_Salamis; ancient_geezer; Principled; *Taxreform

bump for the healing power of the FairTax on HealthCare!


2 posted on 07/09/2004 10:17:06 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (Freedom is Not Free)
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To: Remember_Salamis
While the President is out touting the greatness of America, you, in the first few paragraphs of your so far 3 vanity posts about the mystical tax system have pretty much managed to come to agreement with the 2 Johns and the rest of the Democrat party about how much America sucks.

< sarcasm >I can hardly wait for the rest of your depressing BS essays about this country...how many more will there be exactly?< /sarcasm >

3 posted on 07/09/2004 10:35:48 PM PDT by lewislynn (Why do the same people who think "free trade" is the answer also want less foreign oil dependence?)
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To: lewislynn; Principled; ancient_geezer
Dear Goebbels,

Principled, Ancient_Geezer, and I decided a while back to post specific subtopics of a FairTax/NRST. I wrote an essay on specific topics. How in God's name can you say I'm agreeing with the John-Johns on Health Care or any other topic. The John-Johns want to increase the corporatist health care system by giving even larger tax breaks to provide health care to individuals. The Corporatist Health Care system is an freak accident, an outgrowth of wage controls during WWII. Read Milton Friedman on Health Care; he's on the same page as me. The reason voters think Dems are better with health care: we don't talks about the true problems with it. We need to move toward a consumer-based system, or or corporatist system will someday be socialized.
4 posted on 07/09/2004 10:57:55 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (Freedom is Not Free)
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To: Remember_Salamis

This is no different that the dreaded VAT (value added tax) that the UK uses...as with all forms of taxation it should be avoided like the plague...Come on folks use your heads once passed this will escalate and be used for everything and anything


5 posted on 07/09/2004 11:21:47 PM PDT by jnarcus
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To: Remember_Salamis

Oh and another thing, if the US health care system is awful why is it that everyone wants to come here when they need specilized help? Don't compare us to Japan that has a heavily Buddhist population which believes in the healing powers of the local herbalist,accupressure, sccupuncture, qi quong, and the like. They don't go to MDs folks. What a loon


6 posted on 07/09/2004 11:23:46 PM PDT by jnarcus
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To: lewislynn

Read it,
It is not BS
If you prefer to pay your Taxes with a Gun Pointed to your head, go ahead and send that Resume off to the IRS, just remember, we are not completely disarmed, yet, (and Criminals don't pay Taxes or worry about Gun Laws) If you think Social Engineering via "Take from those that produce - give to those that don't" is a good thing, don't read it. While you are thinking about it I am going to find the Link.
The Fair Tax is the real deal, don't knock it until you know about it.
TT


7 posted on 07/09/2004 11:39:34 PM PDT by TexasTransplant ("I will NEVER EVER turn America's national security interests to other foreign leaders!" George W)
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To: jnarcus
It seems to me that the biggest advantage of the fair tax, is that it levels the playing field with regard to goods and services provided from outside the United States. It means that everything is taxed the same, regardless of it's point of origin.

With the system we have today, if an auto worker is laid off because of imports, it's not as though we let this guy and his family starve... Although the foreign company pay nothing toward unemployment, welfare etc., the taxpayer picks it up.

So we, in a sense, keep him on the payroll while the business goes overseas.

With the fair tax, all sales get taxed the same regardless of origin, making keeping the job in the U.S. more attractive. My observation as an employer, jobs go overseas because of taxes, not wages. The fair tax, is, in effect a duty on inported goods and services...
8 posted on 07/10/2004 1:47:07 AM PDT by babygene (Viable after 87 trimesters)
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To: *Taxreform; Taxman; Principled; Bigun; EternalVigilance; kevkrom; n-tres-ted; Poohbah; CliffC; ...
A Taxreform bump for you all.

If you would like to be added to this ping list let me know.

John Linder in the House & Saxby Chambliss Senate, offer a comprehensive bill to kill all income and payroll taxes outright, and provide a IRS free replacement in the form of a retail sales tax:

H.R.25, S.1493
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.

Refer for additional information: http://www.fairtax.org & http://www.salestax.org


9 posted on 07/10/2004 3:13:17 AM PDT by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath the guillotine.)
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To: jnarcus

This is no different that the dreaded VAT (value added tax) that the UK uses

A VAT taxes business purchases, thus hiding the tax from the view of the electorate. A NRST only taxes at the retail level, is clearly itemized on the bill in front of the eyes of every voter. The key is visibility my friend.

Definition [ http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/13330.html ]:

value-added tax
levy imposed on businesses at all levels of production of a good or service, and based on the increase in price, or value, added to the good or service by each level. Because all stages of a value-added tax are ultimately passed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices, it has been described as a hidden sales tax. Originally introduced in France (1954), it is now used by most W European countries.

The business side of the current income/payroll tax structure now in place is a subtraction method VAT, in that it is a levy imposed on businesses at all levels of production, it is passed on to the consumer hidden in the price of goods and services(on average 20-25% of the price of all goods and services), lower wages, lower returns on investment for investors, and higher interest rates(as much a 25% greater than they would be under the NRST).

OTOH; The NRST is a single stage(Retail), single rate, visible to the consumer tax, on the "retail" sale of new(untaxed) goods and service. It is not a VAT, expressly paid by the consumer not the business and is completely visible to the consumer by a receipt mandated by the law. The NRST does not tax purchases made for investment or business purposes.

Purpose of the NRST is to replace all Federal income/payroll taxes and gift/estate taxes with a single tax levied on all new goods and service once and only once at the retail level paid by the final consumer(the purchaser) of those goods or services. Goods that have been previously taxed under the NRST (i.e. used) are not taxed on resale.

The NRST is a specific remedy and replacement for the current VAT we now pay in the form of inflation and lower income(i.e. the corporate income/payroll tax). The NRST repeals over 95% of all Federal taxes currently in place and replaces them with one simple, easy to administer and understand, Retail Sales Tax.

...as with all forms of taxation it should be avoided like the plague...

Your real issue it appears.

Unfortunately not a very likely scenario to ever happen.

 

Constitution for the United States of America:

 

Hamilton, Federalist #31:

"A government ought to contain in itself every power requisite to the full accomplishment of the objects committed to its care, and to the complete execution of the trusts for which it is responsible, free from every other control but a regard to the public good and to the sense of the people."

"As revenue is the essential engine by which the means of answering the national exigencies must be procured, the power of procuring that article in its full extent must necessarily be comprehended in that of providing for those exigencies."

Federalist #12:

James Madison, Elliots Debates Vol 3 p128:

Mr. Chairman, in considering this great subject, I trust we shall find that part which gives the general government the power of laying and collecting taxes indispensable, and essential to the existence of any efficient or well-organized system of government: if we consult reason, and be ruled by its dictates, we shall find its justification there: if we review the experience we hav had or contemplate the history of nations, here we find ample reasons to prove its expediency. There is little reason to depend for necessary supplies on a body which is fully possed of the power of witholding them.

 

Come on folks use your heads once passed this will escalate and be used for everything and anything

Unlike the current system of course:

"A hand from Washington will be stretched out and placed upon every man's business; the eye of the federal inspector will be in every man's counting house....The law will of necessity have inquisical features, it will provide penalties, it will create complicated machinery. Under it men will be hauled into courts distant from their homes. Heavy fines imposed by distant and unfamiliar tribunals will constantly menace the tax payer. An army of federal inspectors, spies, and detectives will descend upon the state."
-- Virginian House Speaker Richard E. Byrd, 1910, predicting the consequences of an income tax.

 

Taxes & Government Spending:


10 posted on 07/10/2004 3:44:32 AM PDT by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath the guillotine.)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Interesting take, Remember_Salamis-

Thanks for posting it!

11 posted on 07/10/2004 5:24:36 AM PDT by Principled
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To: jnarcus
This is no different that the dreaded VAT (value added tax) that the UK uses...

Ehhhh????? it is the polar opposite of a VAT!

Indeed our current graduated income tax behaves like a VAT - it adds tax costs at every stage of production. Those costs are now HIDDEN in the prices of ALL goods and services and amount to 22-26% of prices. Did you know that 22-26% of EVERYTHING you spend is actually federal tax and tax costs??

The nrst in HR 25 is the antithesis of a VAT. You should spend 4 minutes at the link.

12 posted on 07/10/2004 5:30:38 AM PDT by Principled
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To: jnarcus
...if the US health care system is awful why...

The US system isn't awful, it's the best in the world. Like many things, it can be improved. That's the point I saw.

13 posted on 07/10/2004 5:32:01 AM PDT by Principled
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To: TexasTransplant

http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/index.html

link


14 posted on 07/10/2004 5:33:10 AM PDT by Principled
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To: babygene
It seems to me that the biggest advantage of the fair tax, is that it levels the playing field with regard to goods and services provided from outside the United States.

That was the topic of a recent thread.

And you're right imo.

15 posted on 07/10/2004 5:35:25 AM PDT by Principled
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To: jnarcus

"if the US health care system is awful why is it that everyone wants to come here when they need specilized help?"

-- It's because many of those countries have socialized medecine, which is worse than the corporatist healthcare system we have. But a consumer-driven system is superior to all of them. We can't settle for a system that's simply better than the rest. We need to make it even better. Furthermore, the corporatists system cannot contain itself, and our nation will either go to (1) a socialized system, or (2) a consumer-driven system. President Bush knows this, and is a driving force behind his Medical Savings Accounts (MSAs), a cornerstone of any future consumer-driven system.


16 posted on 07/10/2004 5:39:35 AM PDT by Remember_Salamis (Freedom is Not Free)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Under the current system, the price of goods and services are inflated 20-30% due to imbedded taxes.
You mean goods, not services. I haven't seen anything that's talked about the price of services.

And what makes you think the cost of health care goods would drop? There are much higher margins in the health care industry and recouping R&D costs is a good portion of prices.
17 posted on 07/10/2004 7:36:54 AM PDT by Your Nightmare
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To: Remember_Salamis
President Bush knows this, and is a driving force behind his Medical Savings Accounts (MSAs), a cornerstone of any future consumer-driven system.
The current implementation of MSAs is critically flawed. The account doesn't carry over from year to year. If, by the end of the year, you don't spend the amount you chose to withhold at the beginning, you lose it.
18 posted on 07/10/2004 7:44:10 AM PDT by Your Nightmare
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To: Principled

Thank you for

http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/index.html


19 posted on 07/10/2004 9:12:43 AM PDT by TexasTransplant ("I will NEVER EVER turn America's national security interests to other foreign leaders!" George W)
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To: Remember_Salamis

How about links to threads 1 and 2?

The search capability at this place frequently fails us in finding previous threads.


20 posted on 07/10/2004 9:26:03 AM PDT by TruthNtegrity (We must all work hard to insure Pres. Bush's re-election by a landslide!)
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