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To: AmericanArchConservative

"Well, gee, y'know....ever since the leader of CAIR stated unequivocally and without repentence or retraction that the goal of Islam in America was not to coexist with other religions, but to dominate them, eliminate them and become preeminent...I have had no problem with giving Satan's own Phony Religion Of Peace "special treatment"."

So let's see, YOU have annointed the leader of CAIR as THE spokesman for every Muslim American Citizen, including I suppose those that are in our military ....

Which of Jesse Jackson, Maxine Waters, or Charles Rangel speak for ALL blacks ?

Does the head of the KKK speak for ALL whites ?


17 posted on 04/26/2005 1:09:58 PM PDT by RS (""I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling. ")
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To: RS

Come on now. You left out American Indians...how can you be so insensitive? Their spokesman, Ward Churchill, wants an apology. ;-)


19 posted on 04/26/2005 1:12:11 PM PDT by Gondring (Pretend you don't know me...I'm in the WPPFF.)
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To: RS
So let's see, YOU have annointed the leader of CAIR as THE spokesman for every Muslim American Citizen, including I suppose those that are in our military ....

I wouldn't use muslims in the military as a talking point. Not with the islamic slime who fragged his officers so recently making the news with his conviction. And it's about time Jews stopped tolerating people who would gladly see them dead.

20 posted on 04/26/2005 2:15:15 PM PDT by ariamne (reformed liberal--Shieldmaiden of the Infidel)
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To: RS; Gondring; ariamne; Former Dodger; Fred Nerks; USF; jan in Colorado; TexasCowboy; broadsword; ...

I did not need to "anoint" CAIR...they have virtually anointed themselves - as have the media and the (gagging noises) ACLU, as well as no small number of our elected political leaders who would treat with them if they themselves had the authority. The mass media seems to pay attention to CAIR's every whimsy - responding oh-so readily at the slightest squeal about unfavorable Muslim portrayals in movies, television programming, news magazine exposes, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

They have become the de facto spokespeople/organisation for American Islamists, and the frequent public face of Islamic P.R. in America. To date, NOT ONE major Islamic organisation of any recognisable authority has repudiated CAIR, nor contested their right to that role, nor the statements made in filling that role. Hell - not even any minor Islamic organisation of any note has had the temerity to confront them in a broad public forum! In fact precious few individual Muslim leaders within the US have commented at all - let alone passed any sort of judgment. There seems to be a collusionary silence in which they will speak no ill of any fellow Islamist - regardless of the bad acts or their consequences.

The ACLU backs them up carte blanche in everything they do and say, offering not the slightest criticism of their medium nor their message. Unfortunately as avowedly anti-American as they are, that is no surprise at all.

Even if CAIR were not the primary de facto mouthpiece, that does not undo the countless other incidences across the US of known Islamists who either openly badmouth the US, conspire against this country while living here and enjoying all the benefits our social care system has to offer (scrupulously avoiding assimilating into our culture as opposed to what all other major immigrant groups have willingly done in the past), or earn money expressly for sending to, or otherwise supporting organisations outside the US that they know are terrorist groups or groups who desire to take over the US and create an Islamic Republic governed by Sharia law. Then there are those who have traveled outside the US to join with Islamist militia groups in order to fight against and hopefully kill, US troops.

Sorry but setting ME up as the straw man who has asserted CAIR's role speaking for Islamists in America doesn't work.

Especially not when the leadership and teachers of over 75% of the mosques in America are MEMBERS OF CAIR THEMSELVES. Who's kidding who?

As to the issue about Constitutionality...this nation was founded by men who were primarily Christians of one denomination or another, and one of the primary authors - Thomas Jefferson - is often mistakenly misidentified by revisionist historians as a more neutral "Deist". Jefferson himself was a non-denominational Christian, who knew and believed in exactly who Jesus Christ was and is, and T.J. said so repeatedly in private correspondence, once inscribing a flyleaf of a bible to a friend with a very specifically Christian greeting.

Moreover, above 97% of all the colonists were devoutly practising believers late into the 1700's. The Constitution and the Declaration as documents were based upon principles which were presumptively of a Christian Orthodox nature (with understanding of and respect for Judaic traditions) This is all to say that our nation was founded with protections in place for the free practice of the Christian religion, (with protections for the Jews, since it was believed they served the very same G_d), not the Islamic practice. One of the founders went so far as to assert that the Constitution was intended to govern only such as a G_dly people and that it was wholly unsuited for the governance of any other.

Based upon the long history of behavior of Islamists, I exclude them from such a grouping, and concur with that knowledgeable founder.

The founders had to be quite familiar with muhammadism - its violent history was no more distant from them in their failiarity with European history than is the American Revolutionary war from us in our present context. They knew that Vienna had almost fallen to the marauders from the South...In fact, let's digress for a brief survey lesson in the history of muhammadism that our founders had to have been well aware of, while noting that they made no mention of it in our founding documents...

Islam was...

Founded by a camel driver in the Arabian desert after he married the woman who hired him. She was 15 years his senior. After marriage he gave up his work and studied religion. In 622AD he had to flee from Mecca to the city of Yathrib in the Arabian Peninsula because of his teachings, of which he had denounced all other forms of religion. This is known as the official year of the founding of Islam. In Islam their calendar year begins here with 0 (zero)AH.

He became magistrate of the city and renamed it Medina, meaning "City of the Prophet". He acquired 12 wives while there, some as young as 9 years old. He took in many followers and combined the religion into the politics. When the Jews rejected his calls to convert, he turned against the Jews in Medina and elsewhere.

He plundered and looted all caravans passing anywhere within his reach. With this loot, he and his followers built a large treasury for the city, which was used to increase his army of followers. Of which he was able to ever-increasingly gain more and more territory. Eventually leading to war with the city of Mecca, which he defeated, and then he easily took the rest of the Arabian Peninsula. He was in constant warfare from the time he became magistrate of Yathrib(Medina), in 622AD, until his death in 632AD. In that time period of 12 years, Mohammed had conquered the whole of the Arabian Peninsula.

In the next 12 years, under the next two caliph's or leaders of Islam, the religion would go on to take Jerusalem, Syria, Egypt, Persia, and Mesopotamia! ALL BY FORCE AND WARFARE! Let's see that's 24 years of Islam and 24 years of warfare! This would put the year at 644AD or 24AH.

The next two caliph's continued the same ways as their predecessors. They took the areas/regions of North Africa, parts of India, and Spain. The caliph's line continues, and the wars continue unabated. If it had not been for Charles Martel's victory in 732AD at the Battle of Tours; France, Germany and the rest of Europe would have surely fallen. So we have 110 years of Islam and we have 110 years of Islamic warfare against the rest of the world. We have all the lands from Turkey to India, to North Africa to Spain, all in the hands of Islam! Oh, don't the Arabian Peninsula, Mid-east and Persia! But finally Islam has been slowed down, but only temporarily.

Now instead of large areas conquered in the name of Islam, it is smaller areas. Still Islam's drive for land and conquering people does not stop. By mid 1050AD, a period of 318 years, Islam has gained more ground, driving north towards Russia, northeast towards the Caspian Sea and Kazakhstan, Central Asia, and northeast towards the Balkans and Greece. Constantinople, a main center of Catholicism was being threatened.

Something must be done to stop Islam again, or else Constantinople itself would fall, and then Greece! Roman Popish armies fought off Islam armies alone until 1096AD, with armies of up to 50,000 men each, battling one Muslim front. Pope Urban II in 1096AD, because of deteriorating conditions, and the threat to Constantinople, called upon all of Christendom to contribute armies, men and material to once and for all drive the Muslims back out of Asia Minor, and maybe back, just past Palestine.

This was the first call of the "Crusades". A series of wars that would last almost another 450 years, with only small lapses in time between major wars, between another Holy Jihad and another Crusade! It would be correct to state for all practical purposes, that the war was constant until approximately 1550AD!

It should be noted, this includes Suleiman's infamous siege of Vienna in 1529, wherein he amassed an army reminiscent of the Mongol invasions three centuries before, with hundreds of thousands of troops and deadly janissaries supported by conscripted Balkan infantrymen, as well as thousands of war camels, horse-mounted cavalry, and the most advanced firearms munitions of the time. The spring and summer rains of that year were unexpectedly intense and provided the Austrians with a desperately-needed respite and some time to prepare and reinforce the Viennese defenses. Many of the walled city’s leaders had fled in apprehension, and the defense of Vienna—and, to a substantial extent, of Europe in general—lay in the hands of a resourceful old German mercenary named Nicholas Salm (Nicholas, Graf von Salm), who had been hastily appointed to supervise the response to Suleiman’s looming threat. Perhaps never before or since has a hired gun been so pivotally instrumental in the course of events, for had Salm failed (and there were many places where he could have), the history of at least southern and central Europe would have been radically altered. Austria, the southern German principalities, and the Low Countries may well have fallen under Ottoman hegemony, and the Papal States themselves would have been rendered vulnerable to attack.

The siege of Vienna is historically remarkable not only for its high stakes, but also for the historically unprecedented settings of the major clashes. Suleiman commenced a cannonade against the city walls, but this bombardment was in fact a clever diversion for Suleiman’s shrewd plan to undermine Viennese defenses: surreptitiously constructing a network of tunnels to enable the placement and detonation of gunpowder keg mines beneath the Viennese gates and the bastion towers surrounding them. The result of this was the world’s first and perhaps only recorded instance of a pitched underground battle.

Most mines were detected and defused, but the Ottomans were eventually able to breach a crucial Viennese gate with a well-placed mine and topple the defensive tower in its vicinity, charging the urban center with cavalry and the lethal janissary vanguard. Von Salm, however, had prepared well for this eventuality, and his well-trained German/Spanish/Italian defensive garrison cut down the Ottoman attackers with deadly pike thrusts and grapeshot, forcing them back.

Even that was not the final instance of Islamist aggression against Europe.

(In fact, in 1683, yet another Ottoman invasion force under Kara Mustafa laid siege to Vienna much like Suleiman 150 years prior. But this time, a combined force of German, Austrian, and Polish soldiers, ably led by the cunning Polish king and cavalry commander John Sobieski, established a pincers on the Ottoman invasion force from three sides, occasioning a devastating defeat that would permanently halt Ottoman attempts to conquer central Europe. The Turks then turned their interests elsewhere, to central Asia and southern Russia, and central and western Europe were finally free of the onus of defending against Europe’s nemeses from Constantinople.)

This was only 87 years prior to our American D.O.I.! Do you think our Founders were unaware? 87 years ago for us was 1918 - around the time of WW I.

Okay,just for the sake of argument let's use only the 1550 end date for the Crusades: fast forward 226 years to 1776 when our declaration of independence from Great Britain came about.

We are right now the very same 226 years of historical distance from them in 2002, as they were from the end of 450 years of Crusades fighting Islamist aggression in Europe.

Do you think they failed to recall the lessons of history, just because it was between 87 and 226 years removed? I sincerely doubt it.

Also, the Constitution was most certainly NOT designed to protect minorities' rights as you wrongly assert. That is a modern fable spun by some factions of the P.C. left wing - of which such statements make it appear you are a willing part. The Constitution was intended to protect the rights of all - to particularly insure the rights of landowners be respected, and to keep any government from acting outside the bounds of moral behavior, from acting to oppress it's people. Majority rule was the intention, with some sense of security for the "little guy". Islam in this case is no "little guy" needing our protection - they are over a billion strong in number worldwide, and pose a larger threat than at any time in their bloody, violent and domineering history.

If we afford them the chance to use it against us, our Constitution - even our country, will cease to exist, and our Declaration of Independence will pass into memory.

They are right now in our country, figuratively digging the soil from underneath us after the fashion of Suleiman, and they are laying their groundwork of deception and normal appearances on the surface to later explode our doom and destruction upon us. It is how they wage war. This is what they have done - all they have done since muhammad's magistracy in 622 AD. Theirs is a 1,381 year long history of violently aggressive proselytization, murder, rape, butchery, and land seizure.

I'm NOT suggesting emptying every mosque into a cattle car bound for a WWII style Japanese internment camp, NOR opening fire on random Muslims walking American streets, but I AM strenuously endorsing maintenance of a higher level of vigilance than has yet been effected in the US!

That includes, by necessity, being somewhat discriminatory in surveying the Islamists among us. The actions of their compatriots, and their own deafening silence in the wake of too many bad acts has earned them the right to expect no less.

I do not deal in conjecture, hyperbole, emotionalism, and wishful thinking - I deal in historical facts, including discernibly repeated patterns of behavior which offer object lessons. Don't presume to make me responsible for the Islamist's choice of spokespersons, and don't you dare presume to lecture me about the U.S. Constitution. I have forgotten more about it than you have apparently yet learned!

A.A.C.

Full P.R.O.P. list ping!

Thought for the day:

Fighting for our freedom begins at home. Our troops abroad know their mission and believe in it. Support the troops; support their mission!

Don't support the mission? Then don't claim to support the troops, because you're nothing but a two-faced liar.


22 posted on 04/26/2005 3:52:05 PM PDT by AmericanArchConservative (Armour on, Lances high, Swords out, Bows drawn, Shields front ... Eagles UP!)
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To: RS

you obviously do not have even a basic knowledge of islam.
to speak out against it means death.
their goal IS for all to be islamic or dead.


277 posted on 04/30/2005 9:58:44 PM PDT by catroina54
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