Question about Japan/Germany

Me | 7/10/2007 | MrJapan

[USMCVet]

"35% of the population in the US are somehow of German heritage and quite a few have to deal with Japanese ancestry."

Yup. Your are right about that ..I am roughly half German ancestry - and I have a half Japanese adopted brother. I don't know how much ancestry has to do with potential barbarity - but I'd say that the record of our peoples in the Second World War bears careful circumspection and resolution.

We can't ever let those things happen again.

[Atlantic Bridge]

I don't know how much ancestry has to do with potential barbarity

Potential barbarity of a nation is a matter of culture and education. I am no racist and therefore I do not believe into racial characteristics that include babarism. Due to your ancestry we probably share the same cultural basement. The problem of Germans in the beginning 30ties was their complete lack of political education. They were misled by a -quite talented and eloquent- demagogue. Hitler stood for patriotism, prosperity and a policy of strength. The Jews or a war were no real issues to Germans of 1933. They simply believed that they found a guy that is able to solve the economical problems in their time.

You are obviously a former marine. As far as I know the motto of the marines is "Semper fidelis". Your squad is famous for its loyalty. It is said about them that they fight to the last. The motto of the horrible SS i.e. was "Meine Ehre heisst Treue" (My honour is fidelity) and they fought to the last. Maybe you know that large parts of the SS were normal fighting soldiers who were not involved into war crimes. The difference between the marines and the fighting SS is that the soldiers of the SS were misused for a evil idea while the marines fought (more often than not) for freedom or the defence of their country. Those SS units that killed jews acted in great conspiracy and to normal German soldiers it was impossible to understand the magnitude of German war crimes.

Would you desert the marines just because you heared about Gitmo?

The truth about barbarity is much more complex than you might think. My granddad i.e. probably killed a whole graveyard full of American and British soldiers (who were de facto kids). He was a skilled and experienced fighter pilot (he entered the Luftwaffe in 1934) and shot down a few allied bombers. Due to the fact that every B-17 or Lancaster had 7 crewmembers and most of them smashed, there must have been quite a lot of misery in the US and the UK. Since my family survived i.e. the allied attack on Dresden only with luck and the help of God, my granddad had some good reasons to do his duty. Nevertheless he was deeply ashamed after the war that his patriotism and the sacrifice of his fallen comrades was misused for such nameless BS and he feels sorry for all those lost souls on both sides.

Was he a barbarian just because he defended his own people?

The number of Germans who were involved into the Holocaust (or just heard anything about it) i.e. is quite restricted. My own family got the first but incomplete information from a reliable source about systematic German war crimes in late 1944.

1944 was far too late to understand.

If they had free press, free information and political education they already could have understood the falseness of Hitler in 1933. You see: The biggest problem was their complete lack of political education. Even the mighty United States could slither into the claws of a demagogue and his wrong ideas if your people are unable to differ between the right and wrong ideas. Therefore we all have to do something for freedom.

Contemporary Germans have a complete different problem than those of 1933. Today they are educated. It is practically impossible that my country will turn aggressive again in the near future. It might be that we use our economical potency to push through our political ideas, but we will not invade other countries or open new gas chambers. It is rather that the Germans of today lack the interest into the fate of other nations completely. This is the problem. Therefore the US stand alone in necessary actions against the demagogues of today. If you Americans stand alone, you are too weak to win against the evil. No matter if we talk about Iran, Iraq, North Korea, China or whatever. This is the point were your criticism is justified.

But to say that Germans or Japanese people hang on to barbarism is simply wrong.

[USMCVet]

I understand your point about your grandfather - there were many hundreds of thousands of Germans - and Japanese - who saw their role as simply defending their nations and risked their lives and their bodies to do this. (My Uncle was a P-51 fighter pilot based in Iwo Jima escorting B-29s in their attacks against Japan - he says that "he had three enemies: the airplane, the ocean, and the Japanese, in that order...").

The case of the Waffen SS is a bit different: while the one view of them "just being ordinary soldiers" is popular, but isn't true - they were fanatics and eventually became better soldiers with experience but were never trusted by the Wehrmacht. Our experience with the Waffen SS included the massacre of our prisoners at Malmedy.

The Marine Corps is an excellent combat organization but we aren't actually considered fanatics - a bit "more beef than brains" somedays and certainly mission-focused but not murdering fanatics.

I agree that Germany and Japan are different nations than they were in the 1930s and 40s and I am fascinated with them and often visited them. But are you ready to say that building either Germany or Japan into a major military power, even now, is a really great idea? This kind of power has a way of corrupting even the best of us. Even now, the real power we have in the world works best if we combine our efforts and perspectives to solve the world's issues as a team. Even our United States can go wrong and quickly if we run around dealing with issues on our own.

By the way, really like the picture of the Messerschmitt ME-109G4 on your site - a very elegant yet brutal aircraft - you wouldn't happen to know where I can get video of that machine flying, would you?

[usmcobra]

Ocean... Japan could afford to be a pacifist nation, Germany had The Soviets on their borders and in half their country.

[Rummenigge]

Excuse me to interfere.

I enjoy frequent discussions with another freeper named red6 who really hates germany and the germans. One point he makes - either honestly or as a rethorical weapon (in a fight against whomever) is that germany cheats on it’s patron in a sworn alliance - the US.

Everyone is curious about the strength of the german military. In fact no aspect of germany seems to be as important as our ability to fight.

There’s thouse , who want us in helmand - fighting like it was the Ardennen. Others are convinced that germany will invade a random country the very moment we are prepared to.

Give us time !

Germany changed in rapid steps after 45 - first economically then came reunification and then we restructured our army and prepared our society for what seems to be inevitable - securing the world under the leadership of the US.

While the german army bought tanks in vast numbers during the cold war - we now produce ships that can be used as a deployable HQ - transport vehicle that are safe against mines - recce vehicles that are small and self contained for longer periods - submarines that can monitor syrian radio etc. etc.

We know our place - we are no superpower. The only way we can have a voice that is heard is to be a part of europe and to be a part of the US lead international community.

Should the US weaken (because of a dollar crash or misgovernment by carters nephews - god be with us) Europe had a huge problem - but I think in the end we could contain our selfes.

In the long term I see Europe as an entity that is more selfcontained and independent - still allied to the US and Germany with a vital role in it. As Bush sen. said - a partnership in leadership.