UPI Hears (Russian Confirm Al Queda, Mujahadeen in Georgia, my clarification)

UPI ^ | Published 9/26/2002 2:18 PM | international desk

[Robert_Paulson2]

Insider notes from United Press International for Sept. 26 ...

Symbols are important. Videotape just released by the Chechen rebels confirms what U.S. intelligence has suspected -- and what Russian President Vladimir Putin has long claimed -- that the Chechen's so-called "moderate" leader Aslan Maskhadov has bowed to the Islamicist hard-liners and gone "jihadi."

On the tape, his commentary on the shooting down of a Russian military helicopter, he is seen wearing epaulets inscribed with verses from the Koran. Behind him was the rebels' green flag, which used to feature the Chechen nationalist emblem of a wolf of Ichkeria, has been replaced by Koranic verse and a scimitar.

The result looks very like the flag of Saudi Arabia, reflecting the puritanical and intolerant Wahhabi sect of Islam. At one point in the videotape, which Russian officials have made available to the Americans, Maskhadov refers to the armed men in camouflage gear surrounding him as "Mujahedin."

American enthusiasm for getting the Russians back to the negotiating table with Maskhadov has accordingly nose-dived.

The Russians, who have been warning for months that the Chechens were snuggling ever deeper into bed with al Qaida, are raising a new hot potato -- the question of Saudi funding for the Chechens.

[Robert_Paulson2]

They take out Georgia "problem" We take out Iraqi "problem" They help us with Saudi "problem?"

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

The jihadists are getting bolder and branching out. It's time to thin the herd and send them back to their skiffy holes like the rodents that they are.

[Robert_Paulson2]

This is also relevant, I suspect.

Russia warns Georgia over link to clashes From the International Desk Published 9/26/2002 4:05 PM

WARSAW, Poland, Sept. 26 (UPI) -- Russia may launch a military strike against neighboring Georgia if reports that Chechen rebels invaded the Russian autonomous republic of Ingushetia from Georgian territory are confirmed, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov told reporters Thursday.

Asked if Thursday's rebel attack and clashes with federal forces in Ingushetia might be the last straw for Russia, Ivanov replied: "It may be."

The Russian government has repeatedly warned Georgia in recent weeks that groups of Chechen rebels were planning to cross the border to launch attacks on Russian territory.

Ivanov told reporters in Warsaw, Poland, that a group of "bandits and terrorists" numbering approximately 150 had entered Russian territory, presumably from neighboring Georgia, attacking Russian forces, shooting down a Mi-24 helicopter and killing several Russian soldiers.

The Russian defense minister confirmed that at least 14 Russian soldiers had been killed in clashes, adding that more than 40 rebels had been killed.

"We have taken several prisoners," Ivanov added. Russian news agencies say the captured rebels confirmed they had crossed in to Russia from Georgia's Pankisi Gorge.

Ivanov said Russian intelligence is monitoring movements of rebel groups, which may be preparing to launch further attacks, and warned that Moscow would not hesitate to take preventive action "against this aggression, using all means available to us, in accordance with international law and the U.N. resolution on fighting international terrorism."

"If the terrorists cross or try to cross the Russian border, we will not wait until they commit terrorist acts," Ivanov said. "Any civilized nation would do the same," the Russian defense minister added.

"We are constantly under attack (from rebels)," Ivanov said. "Moscow is well aware that there were and are bandits in Georgia who are responsible for explosions in Moscow."

"We tried to use political and diplomatic means in our relations with Georgia, but we know very well that certain Georgian officials are directly linked with the terrorists," Ivanov said, reiterating that Georgia was beginning to resemble a lawless state such as Taliban-ruled Afghanistan.

"This reminds us more and more of the situation in Afghanistan two or three years ago. (Taliban leader) Mullah Omar said that there are no terrorists on Afghan territory. We know how this ended," Ivanov said.

"We are coming under attack from terrorists who are trying to enter Russia with particular plans -- to blow up houses, transport communications, and kill Russian citizens," he said.

Ivanov said Moscow has "no claims on Georgian territory or sovereignty, but we want assurances (from Georgia) that there will be no such terrorist attacks on our territory."

"So far we have received no such assurances," he said.

Ivanov said incursions by rebels who cross the Georgian-Russian border "unfortunately take place frequently."

Earlier, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who is also in Warsaw for a meeting of NATO defense ministers, spoke out on the Russian-Georgian tensions.

"It's important that Georgian sovereignty be respected. We do not favor bombing in that area," he said.

[Robert_Paulson2]

a new hot potato -- the question of Saudi funding for the Chechens.


This really caught my eye... EVERYWHERE we look... the evil house of saud's hands are dripping with the blood of their jihad...

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

I agree with the Bush Administration analysts. It's time to kick the crap out of Saudi and confiscate their oil fields. The Saudi scum have done enough damage in the world.

[marron]

If memory serves, Chechens trained in Afghanistan, and many were among the Taliban when our war started there.

Also, if memory serves, the Chechens were primarily supported by the Turks and the Saudis. I believe there were Arabs, presumably Saudis, fighting with the Chechens in Chechnya.

Of course, we supported the Chechens until recently. Go back and re-read remarks by Clinton and Albright. No matter what atrocity they committed, Clinton/Albright could be counted on to defend them. That started to change under Bush Jr, as part of his new policy of courting Putin. The break is final, of course, in the aftermath of 9/11, as we needed Russian support in Central Asia. So the Chechens are history.

[Travis McGee]

We can deal with Putin and Russia. Let them flatten Chechnya and control Georgia, and we'll do what we need to do in the middle east.

[Robert_Paulson2]

evening travis. good to see ya.

[Shermy]

"The Russians, who have been warning for months that the Chechens were snuggling ever deeper into bed with al Qaida, are raising a new hot potato -- the question of Saudi funding for the Chechens."

Geez, does this guy mean mean that the Saudi funding of Al Qaeda, whose larger workings were to train Chechen, Uzbeki and other jihadis to attack and upset emerging regions of oil and gas production might be disclosed? And American-Muslim "charities" were used as the cover to forward money to the front lines?

Ain't gonna happen, unless some Russian writes about it.

[Travis McGee]

Thanks.

Putin is still just negotiating terms for our spheres of influence, IMHO.

[Shermy]

"Also, if memory serves, the Chechens were primarily supported by the Turks and the Saudis. I believe there were Arabs, presumably Saudis, fighting with the Chechens in Chechnya."

Turks supported them just like we did. But then the fundies took over...and then they started the Second Chechen War, coincidentally timed with the opening of Russian wells in the area. The "rebels" have morphed from a local ethnic rebellion into a Wahhabist International Brigade. Saudi behind it. Iranian elements in cooperation.

It's been profitable.

Americans had little forstight in getting fundi/Saudi cooperation, just as in Bosnia. Our govt didn't think through the consequences.

[William McKinley]

I agree. And the Russians always drive the hardest bargain possible.

That said, I think that if we stand firm they can be a fine ally.

[Momaw Nadon]

Hey Pootie,

WIPE THEM OUT, ALL OF THEM!

[tomahawk]

This is why Russia must crush the Chechen and Wahhabist Jihadists. Their battle is our battle. Slava Rossiya!

[Robert_Paulson2]

How dare you imply that the evil house of saud would use terrorist attacks to try and keep oil production from emerging in competitor states...

Zing!

[11B3]

Once agin, the Russians and the US have a common enemy who is actively trying to kill our people in numbers. The quote by Ivanov that they have people crossing their borders with killing on their minds sounds just like our southern border. At least the Russians shoot first, prior to the bag lunch and the bus ride back to try again. In a twist of a MadIvan quote: "It's a shame when the Russians are more in tune with our national security than the Democratic Party."

It's time for the US and Russia to take the gloves off and be done with Islam altogether.

[marron]

Hey Sherm

You know my opinion. If you look at the past decade, it is plain that what we are now calling Al Qaeda is essentially the pointy end of a rather ambitious Saudi foreign policy.

They have funded rebel movements in every country in Asia, including Muslim countries. Bin Ladin was bagman and spiritual leader for these movements, but it wasn't his money, it was Saudi money. And, as you pointed out, "charity" money, much of it from the US as well as Saudi Arabia.

During the eighties and especially during the nineties, we let the Saudis be our foreign policy guru, especially where Islamic countries were concerned. Since the Saudis are the Defenders of the Two Holy Mosques, and since they have made a lot of us rich, its easy to love them, and easy to take their advice on important issues.

So, we monitor, but do not interfere as they organize movements all across the Asian continent. We monitor but do not interfere as their agents enter the US and take up residence. As you say, we saw the possibilities of such an alliance with the radical Islamists, but did not think through all the implications.

Such as the fact that the radicals would not be loyal to us. They aren't even loyal to Riyadh, for that matter. And eventually became our nightmare. But that was later.

In the nineties we still didn't see it coming, even though their attacks had already begun. We hoped that with a slap, or some Saudi justice, the radicals could be re-directed away from us and back toward our rivals, the Russians, and the Chinese.

The Saudi movement is not strictly controllable, and has taken on a life of its own. It is not above cooperating with the Iranians, and it has cooperated with Baghdad, despite the canard that the Wahabists don't like Saddam. They may or may not like him, but they agree that the real enemy is us. And have worked together.

The main source of the rivalry between Baghdad and Saudi Arabia is not religious in nature, it is simply that both dream of leading the Muslim world, and each views the other as a threat.

Saddam dreams of conquering the old fashioned way, with direct military conquest. The Saudis, on the other hand, are more pragmatic, and see their Wahabist faith as the weapon that will bring the world into the fold piece by piece.

Bush started to back away from the Chechens right away, as part of his outreach to Putin. But obviously 9/11 woke a lot of people up to the Wahabists and their games, and we have gone from tacitly supporting them to rounding them up where ever we find them. What a difference a day makes.

My question is still; did Osama start believing his own PR? Was he doing a side deal with Baghdad? Had he decided to take on Riyadh, and for that reason began his attacks on us? Because had he kept his attacks at a low level, or confined them to everyone except us, he would still be running his operation, and with our blessing.

[Cicero]

Most Americans used to sympathize with Chechnya. No longer.

Also Georgia. In the early years, Russia really picked on Georgia and did everything it could to destabilize and fragment it. But if they are now sheltering Muslim terrorists, then as far as I am concerned that loses them my sympathy.

Too bad, because I have met several Georgians, and it's a very civilized country. But supporting Muslim terrorists is beyond the pale--if these Russian charges are true, which IMHO is not certain.

[swarthyguy]

They certainly were back in your time.

[marron]

But supporting Muslim terrorists is beyond the pale--if these Russian charges are true

We have had Green Berets in Georgia now for several month training Georgian security forces. The reason given is so the Georgians can expel Al Qaeda elements that have entered the country.

But the Georgians have been in no hurry to go and expel anyone. There seems to be a double game going, that I don't totally understand. Parts of Georgia have split off, with Russian support. In return, Georgia supports the Chechens, who are connected with Al Qaeda. Elements of both have evidently taken refuge in the country. But the region where they are hiding is predominantly Muslim; perhaps the Georgians are afraid this region will also secede if they get tough? Or is it that the Chechens, or their Saudi sponsors, have bought and paid for Georgian support? And perhaps Georgian politicians are honorable enough, once bought, to stay bought?