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"A million Mogadishus": Some antiwar leftists bring moral squalor to their cause (Andrew Sullivan)
Salon ^ | March 29, 2003 | Andrew Sullivan

Posted on 03/30/2003 5:31:52 PM PST by Timesink

Andrew Sullivan
"A million Mogadishus"
Those antiwar leftists who equate Bush with Saddam and cheer U.S. military setbacks bring moral squalor to their cause.

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By Andrew Sullivan

March 29, 2003  | 

The coming weeks are going to be critical for the left in this country for a very simple reason. Legitimate, important, valid or even extreme and hyperbolic arguments before a war are one thing. But they have a different salience when they are made during a war -- especially one that has barely even begun. There are already polling suggestions that the antiwar movement is at this point bolstering public support for the war. But if the antiwar rhetoric among the extreme left continues in the same vein as it has this first week, the marginalization of the left in this country, already profound, might become irreversible.

Let me take two comments this past week. In the Boston Globe, James Carroll explicitly denied any moral difference between the regime in Baghdad and the administration in Washington. He described the "shock and awe" air campaign as if it were the direct equivalent of 9/11:

"And what, exactly, would justify such destruction? What would make it an act of virtue? And is it possible to imagine that such violence could be wreaked in a spirit of cold detachment, by controllers sitting at screens dozens, hundreds, even thousands of miles distant? And in what way would such 'decapitation' spark in the American people anything but a horror to make memories of 9/11 seem a pleasant dream? If our nation, in other words, were on its receiving end, illusions would lift and we would see 'shock and awe' for exactly what it is -- terrorism pure and simple."

This lazy form of moral equivalence is not rare among the radical left in this country. But it is based on a profound moral abdication: the refusal to see that a Stalinist dictatorship that murders its own civilians, that sends its troops into battle with a gun pointed at their heads, that executes POWs, that stores and harbors chemical weapons, that defies 12 years of U.N. disarmament demands, that has twice declared war against its neighbors, and that provides a safe haven for terrorists of all stripes, is not the moral equivalent of the United States under President George W. Bush. There is, in fact, no comparison whatever. That is not jingoism or blind patriotism or propaganda. It is the simple undeniable truth. And once the left starts equating legitimate acts of war to defang and depose a deadly dictator with unprovoked terrorist attacks on civilians, it has lost its mind, not to speak of its soul.

9/11 and our current campaign against Saddam are, if anything, polar opposites. With overwhelming firepower and complete air command, the allies in Iraq could reduce Baghdad to rubble if they wanted to. Instead they are achieving what might be an historically unprecedented attempt to win a war while avoiding civilian casualties. Even if you take Iraqi numbers of dead at face value, even if you believe that every explosion in Baghdad has been the result of allied air power, the number of civilian casualties is still minuscule, compared to the force being used. On 9/11, in contrast, the entire aim of the exercise was to kill as many civilians as possible. For James Carroll to equate the two is a moral obscenity.

How big a leap is it from decrying allied warfare as terrorism to actually actively supporting the Baghdad regime against U.S. troops? In the past two years, we have indeed seen some misguided Americans fighting for the Taliban; we have seen human shields attempting to support Saddam's war crimes; we have seen an American soldier try to kill his own fellow service members; we have seen extremist Muslim Americans murder people in sniper fire and at airport counters. These people are very few in number, and should not be conflated with the "antiwar" movement as a whole. But observing "peace" rallies where Bush is decried far, far more passionately than Saddam -- where, in fact, Saddam is barely mentioned at all -- suggests that something not altogether different lurks beneath the surface among many others. Nick Kristof this week bemoaned the fact that "in some e-mail from fellow doves I detect hints of satisfaction that the U.S. is running into trouble in Iraq -- as if hawks should be taught a lesson about the real world with the blood of young Americans." (When you read Eric Alterman's blog, and see him almost high-five every allied setback, you can see what Kristof is worrying about.)

Then last week, someone actually came out and said it. Columbia University professor Nicholas De Genova hoped at an "antiwar teach-in," hosted by left-wing writer and historian Eric Foner, that there would be "a million Mogadishus" in this war. To translate: This guy wants to see a million young American troops subjected to war crimes, shot and mutilated, and paraded through the streets. No one in the crowd objected. "The only true heroes are those who find ways that help defeat the U.S. military," he elaborated. And to loud cheers from an Ivy League college audience, he thundered, "If we really [believe] that this war is criminal ... then we have to believe in the victory of the Iraqi people and the defeat of the U.S. war machine."

Notice how de Genova parroted Saddam's propaganda that the dictator and the "Iraqi people" are indistinguishable. But notice something far more obvious. If de Genova's comments aren't an expression of a fifth columnist, someone actively supporting the victory of a vicious dictator over the troops of his own countrymen, then what, please tell me, is? And please, don't give me the old McCarthyite "J'accuse." De Genova has every right in the world to say what he believes; and I would defend his right to say it anywhere, free from any governmental interference. By the same token, I am allowed to say that his views are morally repugnant.

But then again, he has a point, doesn't he? The rhetoric of the "antiwar" movement has consistently argued that this is indeed a criminal war: that it is being conducted by an illegal president for nefarious ends -- oil contracts, the Jews, world domination, etc., etc. When you have used rhetoric of that sort, when you have described your own country as indistinguishable in legitimacy from a Stalinist dictatorship, when you have described the president as the equivalent of the Nazi SS, when you have carried posters with the words Bush = Terrorist and "We Support Our Troops When they Shoot Their Officers," then why shouldn't you support the enemy?

Before the war, such hyperbole could perhaps be dismissed as rhetorical excess. During a war, when American and allied soldiers are risking their lives, it is something far worse. Before the war, it was inexcusable but not that damning for the mainstream left merely to ignore the rabid, immoral anti-American rhetoric of some of their allies. But during a war, ignoring it is no longer an option. In fact, the mainstream left has a current obligation to declare its renunciation of what amounts to a grotesque moral inversion, to disavow the sentiments that were cheered at Columbia University.

You can see why they might be reluctant. De Genova's rhetoric -- and that of the rest of the far left -- describes President Bush as an unelected, maniacal tyrant, a caricature that is useful to Bush's political enemies. But indeed, if the president is what de Genova says he is, if he is, as the posters have it, the same as Hitler, then why indeed isn't Saddam indistinguishable? Why should we back one unelected dictator against another? Those are questions the rest of the antiwar left never answered categorically before the war, because they didn't have to. Now they do.

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About the writer
Salon columnist Andrew Sullivan's commentary appears daily on his own andrewsullivan.com Web site.



TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: andrewsullivan; andrewsullivanlis; andrewsullivanlist; blackshirts; millionmogadishus; traitorlist; warlist
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1 posted on 03/30/2003 5:31:53 PM PST by Timesink
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To: *war_list; **Andrew Sullivan lis; *Andrew Sullivan list; *Blackshirts; *Traitor List
bump lists
2 posted on 03/30/2003 5:34:40 PM PST by Timesink (If you use the word "embedded" in a conversation, you'd better be carrying an x-ray to show me.)
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To: Timesink
The Left is, and always has been, intellectually bankrupt.
3 posted on 03/30/2003 5:38:02 PM PST by Free ThinkerNY (((Live Free or Die!)))
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To: Timesink
The liberals are opposed to capital punishment only for criminals (one of their key voting constituencies).

Our own soldiers and Republicans should be killed as much as possible, whenever possible.

4 posted on 03/30/2003 5:39:45 PM PST by friendly
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To: Timesink
Over on Baen's bar we did some "back of the envelope" calculations.

A million Mogadishus. Okay. Eighteen American dead. About 1000 skinnies.

Takes off shoes...

That makes eighteen million American males dead. That is very bad. That's a good part of our total available "grunt" force. If we figure on the current averages for the forces. BUT! We can use women for anything but combat arms. If you put all the women in support positions and push forward all the males into combat arms that can qualify, then you start to have a viable number to make up that eighteen million. Horrible tragedy for the US, but we can sustain it.

But the rest of the world?

That's a billion dead "wogs." I mean, first of all, we'd have to have fought _everybody_ in Latin America, Africa and Asia. And in each of the countries wiped out their males of military age between fifteen and fifty.

Hmmmm...

I don't think this guy is very smart but...

S**t happens. If that's what it takes, that's what it takes.

Oh, and based upon using _real_ forces... the ratio's going to be much more in our favor. Something like 1:1000 so we'll lose, say, a million to do it... But the third world will be having a hard time finding husbands.

Time to invest in body-bag manufacturers...
5 posted on 03/30/2003 5:42:35 PM PST by Abn1508
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To: Timesink
...the marginalization of the left in this country, already profound, might become irreversible.

PLEASE, no one wake me from this fabulous dream!!!!

6 posted on 03/30/2003 5:44:49 PM PST by sirchtruth
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To: Timesink
Then last week, someone actually came out and said it. Columbia University professor Nicholas De Genova hoped at an "antiwar teach-in," hosted by left-wing writer and historian Eric Foner, that there would be "a million Mogadishus" in this war.

Six hundred Somalis died in the action so fondly remembered by De Genova, and although it was obvioulsy not his intended point, he was REALLY saying that the deaths of 600,000,000 blacks and people of color would not be too high a price to briang about a socialist rule in the United States.

This bastard's hateful rehoric should be headlined: "Prominnent Leftist says Death of Six Hundred Million Blacks acceptable price for Defeat of America".

7 posted on 03/30/2003 5:45:06 PM PST by John Valentine (Writing from downtown Seoul, keeping an eye on the hills to the north.)
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To: Timesink
Can someone please define where "free speech" ends and sedition begins? Some of the anti-war activists seem to have crossed this line. The Constitution, including the First Amendment, is not a suicide pact. Thanks to Andrew Sullivan for exposing the America haters in their own words.
8 posted on 03/30/2003 5:47:50 PM PST by Faraday
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To: Timesink
describes President Bush as an unelected, maniacal tyrant, a caricature that is useful to Bush's political enemies.

What they don't get is that they are just as useful to BUSH. You know the saying "with enemies like these...."

9 posted on 03/30/2003 5:48:07 PM PST by Mister Baredog ((They wanted to kill 50,000 of us on 9/11, we will never forget!))
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To: John Valentine
"Prominnent Leftist says Death of Six Hundred Million Blacks acceptable price for Defeat of America".
10 posted on 03/30/2003 5:49:49 PM PST by John Valentine (Writing from downtown Seoul, keeping an eye on the hills to the north.)
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To: John Valentine
Prominnent Leftist says Death of Six Hundred Million Blacks acceptable price for Defeat of America".

Were he a conservative the headline WOULD have read just like that.

11 posted on 03/30/2003 5:50:01 PM PST by Mister Baredog ((They wanted to kill 50,000 of us on 9/11, we will never forget!))
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To: Molly Pitcher; Miss Marple
Ping!
12 posted on 03/30/2003 5:51:02 PM PST by ABG(anybody but Gore) (Support the handicapped, hire a liberal...)
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To: Timesink
This lazy form of moral equivalence is not rare among the radical left in this country

CLICK HERE to read about the link between the anti-American anti-war protesters and the terrorists.

13 posted on 03/30/2003 5:58:17 PM PST by Eva
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To: Timesink
Those are questions the rest of the antiwar left never answered categorically before the war, because they didn't have to. Now they do.

But they won't, and one of the reasons they won't is that Sullivan wrote this column.

On the left, Sullivan is now a turncoat; he is no longer one of them, no matter how much he might protest otherwise. To now do as Sullivan suggests is to join him on the Dark Side. Few will dare.

There is a second reason, and it is that so many on the "mainstream left" live their lives in close little circles that admit no dissent. They are totally out of touch with their fellow citizens, but they do not know it. Michael Moore imagines that a majority of Americans agree with him; Howard Dean imagines that he can win the Presidency. Neither has a clue what most Americans really think; everyone they know agrees with them.

And so these mainstream lefists will not recognize how offensive most people found the comments of Professor De Genova. They understand that he stepped over the line, but it does not seem all that offensive to them... not on a gut level. And so they think they can ignore it, not understanding that failure to condemn will be seen as quiet support.

We saw the same thing again tonight. MSNBC imagines that they can "explain away" the behavior of their Baghdad correspondent Peter Arnett, who appeared on Iraqi State Television to denounce the Bush Administration. Peter's future is with the Dixie Chicks, and so is MSNBC's if they do not drop Arnett like a hot rock... but they can't even see it. They tell us he merely performed a "professional courtesy" and that it was no big deal. They are totally out of touch; another bunch of New York liberals like Michael Moore who imagine that everyone thinks the same way they do.

This war is going to bust the chops of the American left, and it is going to do worse to the American press.


14 posted on 03/30/2003 6:06:43 PM PST by Nick Danger (More rallys planned! www.freerepublic.net)
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To: Nick Danger
James Carroll, Eric Alterman and Nicholas De Genova all hold leadership positions in the Fedayeen Daschle.
15 posted on 03/30/2003 6:41:36 PM PST by okie01 (The Mainstream Media: IGNORANCE ON PARADE.)
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To: okie01
James Carroll, Eric Alterman and Nicholas De Genova all hold leadership positions in the Fedayeen Daschle.

Add Charles Rangel and Peter Arnett to that list.

16 posted on 03/30/2003 8:18:40 PM PST by Wil H
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To: Nick Danger
On the left, Sullivan is now a turncoat; he is no longer one of them, no matter how much he might protest otherwise.

Despite his aversion to the religious right, Sullivan has been supporting mostly conservative Republican positions for quite a few years, with the exception of his stand on gay marriage and homosexuality in general. He was a vocal supporter of George Bush in 2000.

Sullivan is an Oakeshott conservative, and did his doctoral dissertation on him, conducting some twenty years ago, as I understand it, one of the last interviews the old philosopher ever sat down for.

Even during his brief editorship of The New Republic Sullivan was known for pushing that publication to the right. And Howell Raines declared a few years back, in so many words, that Sullivan's work was too conservative for The New York Times. Temperamentally, intellectually and in most every other way, Sullivan, a practicing Roman Catholic, is a foundationalist, and thus a man of the right on today's political spectrum.

17 posted on 03/30/2003 8:42:29 PM PST by beckett
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To: Abn1508
Rhetorical hyperbole by lefties that ignores basic math and basic science is the norm, like that fellow that talked about the sharks still swimming around in the Atlantic waiting to eat Africans that were thrown or leaped overboard when they were being transported for the slave trade.

That's why they are lefties, because they couldn't pass math and science and thus can't digest facts.

And that's why they are against the war, because in war, masculinity and strength and physical agility are important, and they weren't good at sports either.

All they can to is spin b.s., which they call "analysis."

They've felt pretty left out during the aftermath of 9/11 and now the war in Iraq. Policemen, firemen and military men are our heroes now, and the leftie eggheads are upset that they are not so attractive to the females right now. After all, what female ever felt protected by an analyst?

18 posted on 03/30/2003 8:51:58 PM PST by patriciaruth
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To: Timesink
Even if you take Iraqi numbers of dead at face value, even if you believe that every explosion in Baghdad has been the result of allied air power, the number of civilian casualties is still minuscule...especially when compared to the civilian casualties racked up every day (sometimes literally) in Saddam's prisons, torture chambers, and firing squads.......
19 posted on 03/30/2003 9:21:54 PM PST by Intolerant in NJ
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To: Intolerant in NJ
Please God, let some speechwriter in the White House realize that De Genova's words, properly dissected in a Presidential speech, will destroy the radical left's influence.

They have gone over the line--now sock it to them.
20 posted on 03/30/2003 9:41:23 PM PST by wildbill
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