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To: libertylover
Some things have changed. We now have DNA testing which, if used, would absolutely, positively prove that a mother and her fetus are in fact TWO separate human beings.

I don't get why this is a big deal. Of course we know that the baby is genetically distinct and unique. There's no need to do tests. But what follows from this? The woman's eggs and the man's sperm, because of "crossing over" between homologous chromosomes during their creation, are also genetically unique and distinct from the parent (even overlooking the haploid/diploid distinction), and even from one gamete to the next. So the gametes are living, human and genetically unique. Does this mean they can't be destroyed either?

I'm not necessarily arguing the pro-choice side of the debate here, but only suggesting that there is no purely factual or scientific "slam-dunk" argument that wraps up the pro-life position. There is no scientific answer, for instance, to the question, "when does life begin?" because life doesn't "begin" in any biological sense. Human life is always present and in process (allbeit with alternating haploid and diploid generations) at each and every stage in the reproductive process.

Reproduction is ultimately cyclical. In fact the cycles are even "nested," if I am corrected in recalling that a woman begins producing eggs while she is still in the womb. At best one can say that fertilization is the point were the creation of a genetically unique diploid individual (again the gametes are also genetic individuals) culminates. Now, that might be the proper point to extend the full legal protection of personhood to the developing life, but that case can only be made with arguments that go beyond the mere biological facts of the matter.

Another difference is viability. Though mostly ignored these days, the Roe decision was supposed to allow regulation of a viable fetus, and viability is moving steadily towards fertilization. At some point in the not too distant future, fertilization and viability will be the same event.

Viability of younger fetuses has been improved, but my understanding is that it's done so by approaching more closely and consistently a limit which is NOT apt to be surpassed in the "not too distant future".

It is at some point around the beginning of the third trimester (I don't remember exactly what week) that capillaries grow close enough to the terminal air sacs in the lungs for the blood to take up oxygen from the lungs. Before this the baby simply cannot get oxygen into its blood by breathing, even in an oxygen tent. It's blood must be run through a heart/lung machine of some sort. But even the most perfectly made machine will cause the blood to clot unless anticlotting factors are added. The problem with this is that, due to the development of the baby's circulatory system at this same stage, the thinned blood will cause internal bleeding, particularly in the brain, and this will kill the baby.

It's a catch-22 that may be surpassed at some point in the future, but not at present forseeably, and only with revolutionary advancement in techonology as opposed to the simple evolution of current techniques.

Besides, I don't think it's a good strategy for pro-lifers to even tacitly endorse the viability standard unless that's what they think the standard really should be (in which case they could probably be said to be adopting an intermediate position rather a distinctively pro-life one).

14 posted on 06/22/2003 5:19:29 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: Stultis
Each individual life - that which is ended by abortion - does begin at fertilization. The new organism then directs his or her own metabolic processes in a purposeful, directed manner.

while the oocyte and sperm may have a unique set of Chromosomes, neither has the requisite set that allows metabolism for more than a week's life span. And the only metabolic processes either is capable of are those solely directed toward syngamy. After syngamy, the new cell will use the unique combination of genes to produce proteins, amino acids, and new cells.
26 posted on 06/22/2003 3:13:57 PM PDT by hocndoc (Choice is the # 1 killer in the US)
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To: MHGinTN
^
29 posted on 06/22/2003 4:07:39 PM PDT by cgk (Rummy on WMD: We haven't found Saddam Hussein yet, but I don't see anyone saying HE didn't exist.)
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To: Stultis
I don't get why this is a big deal. Of course we know that the baby is genetically distinct and unique. There's no need to do tests. But what follows from this?

A large crux of the argument that is used to justify abortion is contradicted by this. I am sure you have heard the phrase, "a woman has to the right to do to her own body", this implies, and many pro abortionists outright state, that the fetus is equivalent to the other organs in a mothers body or is just "tissue".

If fetus or unborn child has different DNA (and it does), then its a unique and different person, in other words,Its in a womans body, but it is not a part of a womans body,. Its injects a legal question of does a person have the right to end life for another person?

Slowly eroding the crux of justifications that are used, is one phase. By the way, have you ever noticed that those who support abortion, never, ever use any of the reasoning or logic that is used by the justices in Roe vs Wade?

31 posted on 06/22/2003 6:16:32 PM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: Stultis
You asserted, "... again the gametes are also genetic individuals ..." And of course, you know that the term 'individual', when discussing organisms, instantly places the gametes into the category of sub-units of organs that are sub-structures of organisms; the gamete cells are not organisms of the human being variety but akin to any other sub-structure/sub-unit somatic cell of the larger organism. You know that, yet you try to foist this bu!!sh!t? Amazing!

You asserted, "I'm not necessarily arguing the pro-choice side of the debate here, but only suggesting that there is no purely factual or scientific "slam-dunk" argument that wraps up the pro-life position." And of course, since you refuse to be consistent and rational (see the above deceit you tried to pull), there is absolutely no truth you cannot deny or fact you cannot disregard.

You offered, "Viability of younger fetuses has been improved, but my understanding is that it's done so by approaching more closely and consistently a limit which is NOT apt to be surpassed in the "not too distant future"." And you expect the truth of the individual human being to change when the viability can be achieved completely outside the body of a life supporting woman? What a bold dissembler you are! What devious transactionalist you show of yourself!

You informed (inaccurately), "It is at some point around the beginning of the third trimester (I don't remember exactly what week) that capillaries grow close enough to the terminal air sacs in the lungs for the blood to take up oxygen from the lungs. Before this the baby simply cannot get oxygen into its blood by breathing, even in an oxygen tent." At what month does the twentieth week arrive from conception? The twentieth week is the earliest, so far, that an alive individual human being has exited her mother's body and survived, so far, into late toddlerhood. I'm convinced you could not be making such bold assertions with so incorrect knowledge, so I conclude you are purposely prevaricating to serve an agenda.

You obliquely confess to which perspective on the unalienable right to LIFE you have sided: Besides, I don't think it's a good strategy for pro-lifers to even tacitly endorse the viability standard unless that's what they think the standard really should be (in which case they could probably be said to be adopting an intermediate position rather a distinctively pro-life one). We pro-lifers need more like you pro-infanticidist, because you are easily exposed for the secular humanists you are, and your denial of right and wrong, as standards for society to aim toward, makes for astonishing reading to most moderate, god-fearing Americans. Please, continue to obfuscate and prevaricate, we pro-lifers can use more irrational and absurd assertions by your ilk supporting and defending infanticide.

34 posted on 06/22/2003 8:59:26 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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