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To: GipperGal

" As I have mentioned in other posts on other threads, from my ancestor's POV the crusades were literally a Godsend."

From my Greek ancestors pov the Crusades were a distinctly mixed blessing. The "Frankokratia" in Southern Greece was certainly better than the "Turkokratia" which a century+ followed it, but not a great deal better. Guillaume De Villhardouin and his people were not the tenderest of overlords, especially to my family (they occupied a castle right behind my aunt's house down in the village in Greece). They made matters very hard for the Greek Orthodox. Eventually there was an uprisng in the late 1200s and the Byzantine Emperor Michael, having retaken Constantinople from the Latin invaders, recovered Morea from the Franks. Thereafter, interestingly enough, many of the wonderful princesses who were the wives of the Despots and other Imperial officials of Morea were Normans. They brought a connection to Western Europe to the Peloponnesus, the effects of which are still to be seen in places like Mistras and in the many castles which dot southern Greece.

As for the rest of the Crusaders, well we all know the story of the sack of Constantinople and the desecration of Orthodox Churches across the Holy Land and the Empire in those times. There is the famous saying from the 1450s that the Orthodox prefered the sultan's turban to the Pope's mitre. The Byzantines came to that conclusion because of the way they were treated under the Crusader empire. Its a tough history, but then again, those were tough times.


9 posted on 05/05/2005 3:04:30 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
There is the famous saying from the 1450s that the Orthodox prefered the sultan's turban to the Pope's mitre.

I know what you mean. But look at what followed in 1453? This Christian city was destroyed and desecrated by the Muslims. It just makes me sick to think of what they did to Hagia Sophia. It makes me sick to think that the mass will never be said there again.

This is a little off-topic, but yesterday I finished reading George Weigel's latest book "The Cube and the Cathedral". Wonderful book! I highly recommend it. This passage in particular I found haunting and harrowing:

"The crisis of civilizational morale that Europe is experiencing today [could] reach its bitter end in a Europe in which the muezzin summons the faithful to prayer from the central loggia of St. Peter's in Rome, while Notre-Dame has been transformed into Hagia Sophia on the Seine -- a great Christian church become an Islamic museum."


10 posted on 05/05/2005 3:49:54 PM PDT by GipperGal
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To: Kolokotronis

I'm sure you have heard the story that when the City was taken by the Turks, they stormed into Hagia Sophia, where the liturgy was in progress. The Turks slaughtered the faithful who had gathered there in supplication. As the Turks approached the sanctuary, the priests took the Holy Mysteries and the sacred vessels and disappeared into the South wall. It is said that when the City is again in the hands of Christians (actually I read it as: when a Christian emperor rules the City again), the priests will emerge from the wall and the liturgy will be resumed where it was when interrupted.

May it be soon.


17 posted on 05/05/2005 4:52:50 PM PDT by Theophane
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