The same way He worked in the OT before He indwelt believers as he does the church.
The signs are the way we watch for Christ’s coming. They are not what we are being delivered from. How do you watch for Christ’s return with no signs? We are watching and waiting. We watch for the signs. We wait patiently through the tribulations.
The signs are already happening all around us, the beginning of birth pangs.
Surely you don't expect everything to be just fine until the rapture occurs then everything falls into place instantly.
We're watching the stage being set even now for things like the moral degradation as in the days of Noah, one world religion, one world currency, one world government, the technology that will implement the mark of the beast, the kind of surveillance state that allows for that kind of world wide control, even the conditioning of the minds of unbelievers to get on board with such a scenario, etc.
Surely you can't think all that could happen overnight.
Besides, *tribulations* which we can all expect to have in this life, is not the same thing as the Great Tribulation.
I have yet to meet a rapture denier who does not deliberately conflate the two and use the terms interchangeably.
Those who are ready will escape the wrath to come.
Wait, I thought you didn't think believers were going to do that, that they would have to endure it because there was no rapture.
“The same way He worked in the OT before He indwelt believers as he does the church.”
Perhaps, but it sounds like it is based on speculation. Where is the biblical support for such a monumental argument?
Do a study on the Holy Spirit, the Gospel, the mystery of the church, and the New Covenant. I believe you will find that what you’re proposing does not fit. The coming of the Holy Spirit was a fulfillment of God’s plan and prophecy. It is part of the mystery of the church. He abides forever. Even in Revelation 5:6, the seven Spirits of God are sent forth into all the earth.
Revelation 5:6 NKJV
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Why would God contradict the message to the Hebrews by reverting back to the Old Covenant rather than fulfilling it and bringing His people Israel into the New Covenant?
Acts 2:16-21 NKJV
But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.”
Jeremiah 31:31-34 NKJV
Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.
Ezekiel 36:24-28 NKJV
For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
Same Gospel remains, same New Covenant remains, same Holy Spirit remains and is given to believers, and who was not given to all under the Old Covenant. The Great Commission was empowered by the Holy Spirit. It is impossible without Him. Yet the same Gospel and same Great Commission continue in the Great Tribulation and until Christ’s return AFTER the Great Tribulation.
Matthew 24:14 NKJV
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
John 7:39 NKJV
But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts 1:8 NKJV
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
Galatians 3:1-2 NKJV
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
I suggest reading all of Hebrews 10. I won’t post it all here, but I’ll make a few points from it. The Law could not do what Christ did to atone for sin. God fulfilled the prophecies of the New Covenant, the coming of the Holy Spirit, and the Gospel of grace. The author admonishes the readers to hold fast to these things and not draw back to the Old Covenant now that the New had come. He encourages them to continue to persevere through the trials they faced, waiting and watching for the return of Christ at the Day of the Lord, when “fiery indignation” will be poured out on the enemies of the Gospel.
“The signs are already happening all around us, the beginning of birth pangs.”
Perhaps they have begun. Only time will tell if ALL of the signs come to pass now and in the sequence Christ gave us. We have to watch. But the idea of signs is incompatible with an “any moment” rapture that has always been the linchpin of the pre-trib doctrine.
“We’re watching the stage being set even now for things like the moral degradation as in the days of Noah, one world religion, one world currency, one world government, the technology that will implement the mark of the beast, the kind of surveillance state that allows for that kind of world wide control, even the conditioning of the minds of unbelievers to get on board with such a scenario, etc.”
True. Yet we are still here. I suggest we will remain here and face Antichrist. It is the role of the last generation of church-age believers to face the greatest time of trial and persecution against God’s people ever. It will be with God’s supernatural help, protection, and indwelling Holy Spirit, who will not be “taken out of the way”.
“Surely you don’t expect everything to be just fine until the rapture occurs then everything falls into place instantly.”
Correct, I do not expect this. This is why Daniel’s 70th week does not arrive as a sudden cataclysmic event. However, the Day of the Lord does arrive suddenly and cataclysmically, just as the second coming does, starting with the rapture. Daniel’s 70th week begins with deception and false peace. Nothing cataclysmic. The Day of the Lord arrives with Christ appearing to the whole world, causing everyone to weep and wail. This will be rapidly followed by the judgments of fire (like Sodom’s destruction) poured out by angels.
“Besides, *tribulations* which we can all expect to have in this life, is not the same thing as the Great Tribulation.”
True, but tribulations are not the same thing as God’s wrath. It cannot be argued that the promise of deliverance from God’s wrath necessitates the church being removed from the world during the Great Tribulation or the beginning of sorrows.
“I have yet to meet a rapture denier who does not deliberately conflate the two and use the terms interchangeably.”
First, I do not deny the rapture. There is a distinct event of the church being raptured. It is different and apart from when Christ returns to the earth. These two events bookend a time period that is referred to by many terms: Day of the Lord, Day of Christ, Day of God, Day of Wrath, the End, and the Second Coming.
Second, I do not consider tribulations to be the same as the Great Tribulation. However, I use the biblical teachings about tribulations to illustrate that they are not the same thing as God’s wrath. Tribulations are ever-present. God’s wrath is ever-present but is being stored up for the Day of Wrath. Believers are never exempt from tribulations but are always exempt from experiencing God’s wrath. Crucial difference.
It seems to me that ALL pre-trib promoters conflate the Great Tribulation with the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath. And I have provided MANY scriptural reasons they are distinct.
“Wait, I thought you didn’t think believers were going to do that, that they would have to endure it because there was no rapture.”
I don’t know how you can get that idea from what I’ve been posting on the subject for many years. To clarify my position...
The signs of Christ’s second coming occur in Daniel’s 70th week, including the beginning of sorrows and the Great Tribulation. After the Great Tribulation ends, Christ comes a second time. His second coming is marked first by the rapture. The time period of the “second coming” is the time of God’s wrath being poured out. This will include the trumpet and bowl judgments. After His wrath is completed, Christ will return to the earth, end the reign of Antichrist, and set up His earthly kingdom. His return to the earth is the event that concludes the time period known as the “second coming” or Day of the Lord.