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To: Roman_War_Criminal

“Can we not see the satanic attempts to distort and pervert our understanding of the ‘Blessed Hope’? And be certain, it can only be a ‘Blessed Hope’, if we are removed before the world enters into the 70th Week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27). Going in, halfway, or all the way removes any sense of ‘hope’ if we are to be subjected to the horror Christ Himself said would not only be present but be unparalleled in all of history (Matt. 24:21-22).”

“Hope” is a word that, in English, conveys a sense of doubtfulness. But the hope of the Bible is assurance and confidence in the face of uncertainty.

It is a horrific lie for anyone (and this is not an accusation directed at you or anyone on this forum, but merely a general statement) to mix with the Gospel a promise of a life of ease, comfort, prosperity, riches, or God otherwise capitulating to all of our foolish desires.

Christ very expressly and emphatically PROMISES those who follow Him will, in a similar way, suffer as He did. God does NOT promise the believer a life free from tribulation, persecution, or affliction. Indeed all of these things MUST happen, according to the scripture.

John 16:33 NKJV
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.

Romans 8:35 NKJV
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

2 Timothy 3:12 NKJV
Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

The blessed hope is the escape from God’s wrath:

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 NKJV
But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

There is a clear distinction in scripture between Daniel’s 70th week and the Day of the Lord. Further, the Day of the Lord is the second coming. This time period begins with the rapture and ends with Christ’s subsequent return to the earth. That “Day” is the time when God’s fiery wrath and indignation are poured out on the earth.

Deception, war, famine, disease, and persecution are signs that precede Christ’s second coming. See Matthew 24 and Revelation 5.

What things must come BEFORE the Day of the Lord?

First, the Holy Spirit (which was already fulfilled at Pentecost). See Acts 2.

Second, Elijah.:
Malachi 4:5 NKJV
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Third, specific signs in the heavens:
Joel 2:31 NKJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

But Elijah comes during Daniel’s 70th week, not before it. And the signs in the heavens come AFTER the Great Tribulation according to Matthew 24 and other passages.

Fourth, the Apostasy, and fifth, the revelation of the Antichrist:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 NKJV
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is rooted in a misunderstanding of the Day of the Lord and its distinction from the Great Tribulation, which comes first and contains the signs of the second coming. Christ will appear in great power and glory, and gather His elect, immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation, and immediately BEFORE the Day of the Lord (or as this time period’s initial event).


8 posted on 03/30/2023 8:34:59 PM PDT by unlearner (RIP America. July 4, 1776 - December 13, 2022. )
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To: unlearner

But a pre-tribulation rapture in no way changes any of that.

Christ will still have Tribulation believers who come to Him during that tribulation and somehow survive, and for Him to gather to Himself and fulfill that prophecy, even if the church is removed before the Tribulation begins.

Scripture records that MANY will refuse to submit to the antichrist and pay the ultimate price for it so it doesn’t need to be the church age believers who are the ones who go through the Tribulation for Jesus to gather to Himself.

The rapture can still happen, and many people will still come to Christ, and some will somehow survive to be the gathered together ones.

Also, during the Tribulation, the wedding feast of the Lamb is occurring in heaven. Since the church is the body of Christ, she is the Bride, the one whom Christ is marrying. She needs to be there for her own wedding.

Nor are Christians destined for judgment. Christ mentions that several times in the gospels as well.

Also, the Tribulation is about God fulfilling His promises to Israel and bring her to the place of accepting Christ as her Messiah, and passing judgment on an unbelieving world for its sin and rejection of Christ, neither of which apply to the church. Our sin has already been judged and that because we have NOT rejected Christ.

God delivers the righteous from judgment, just like Noah from the Flood, Lot from the destruction of the cities of the plain, and Rahab from Jericho.


9 posted on 03/30/2023 10:03:49 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith….)
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To: unlearner

Some of us believe and know that a PreTribulation Rapture will happen.

Others doubt, dismiss, or scoff.

I’ve been living over 30 years for Christ with many Tribulations, suffering, persecutions, and afflictions. It’s the walk we choose to take when we follow Him.

So I’m scratching my head at why you think it’s a ‘horrific lie’ that you are projecting on those who believe in His Words about His Return? (John 14:3)

Guess we’ll continue to lock horns on the issue.
I’m stubborn that way and so are you.


11 posted on 03/31/2023 4:43:45 AM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal (Jesus + Something = Nothing ; Jesus + Nothing = Everything )
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