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1 posted on 04/21/2002 6:12:38 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M...
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2 posted on 04/21/2002 6:13:24 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Add 2 Peret 2:1 to the discussion

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them,

The point is the Lord is said to have bought these false teachers who deny Him.

3 posted on 04/21/2002 9:00:01 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: RnMomof7
I thought putting some context around Rom 5:11 might be helpful. It would seem to me that the following verses make an excellent case of unlimited atonement.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made

Comments?

30 posted on 04/21/2002 7:09:02 PM PDT by Fzob
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To: RnMomof7
One of the basic ideas of the Hebrew and Greek words for "atonement" is that of covering. The atonement is that which covers or hides. "Atonement" represents a debt which is paid, and thus "covered." One might illustrate this idea by speaking of a debt at a bank. If a person is unable to make payment on the debt which he owes to the bank, and if a friend volunteers to pay this debt for him, then that debt is covered and the man is free from all obligation. Such is the idea of atonement.

It is certain the doctrine of the atonement is central to understanding all Christian doctrine. It is also certain the Calvinists have it wrong.

Here this teacher starts off using the correct terminology, that is "covering" from the Hebrew cofer, the same word used for the "cover" of the ark of the covenant where the mercy seat was.

The atonement was exactly what it says, a covering that allowed God to forgive sin.

There is not one word in the Bible about sin being "paid for", or a "sin-debt" being paid for. There is much about the forgiveness of sin, for example, these last 4 verses of Scripture speaking of forgiveness:

Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Now in the example, "If a person is unable to make payment on the debt which he owes to the bank, and if a friend volunteers to pay this debt for him, then that debt is covered and the man is free from all obligation," the case is the opposite to that of Scripture. Sin is not represented as a debt that needs to be paid, but as wages that one will recieve. The penalty of sin is not debt, but a consequence and punishment that is to be recieved. If I should have a debt at a bank, and some benefactor should pay it for me, and the banker ultimately told me, he "forgave me" of my debt, I would consider that presumptuous. Why should I need forgiveness of a debt that has been paid, no matter Who pays it. If my sins are paid for, I do not need to be forgiven of them too.

The whole idea of sin being paid for is preposterous. Sin cannot be paid for. The very idea makes the Calvinist position absurd. If the atonement was "payment" for sin, and only the sins of the elect are paid for, then the death and suffering of Christ are due to the sins of the elect only, since the sins of the non-elect were not payed for. This means that only the sins of the saved are responsible for the death of Christ, since everyone else must pay for their own sin.

No, the atonement is exactly what Scripture teaches, a covering. When we should have received the judgement of God for our sin, our Savior bore the punishment for us, and covers us that the judgement should not fall on us.

Rom. 4:7 ... Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Hank

44 posted on 04/22/2002 8:46:46 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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