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To: RnMomof7
I didn't word #17 correctly. I meant before the world was created, Satan had fallen. I think I meant--How was Satan capable of falling?
18 posted on 04/28/2002 4:32:53 PM PDT by Concerto in D
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To: Concerto in D
I wanted to give you the "best " answer I could.This is such a complex question...I asked a Doctor. of Theology and this was his response to me

Sin is a failure to conform to God's standard as revealed in His character or commandments in thought word or deed. In Satan sin originated in his determination (Isa. 14:12-14) to be above God. In Even and Adam sin originated in direct disobedience to God's command regarding the tree.
Satan before his fall and Adam and Eve before their fall had the capacity to pursue good or evil. Theirs was an untested and defectable (i.e. it could be lost) righteousness. Their wills were free. This capacity was given by God.

In giving this capacity, then, is God responsible for sin? No, He is not the blameworthy cause. When we are glorified in eternity we have an indefectable righteousness and are free only to pursue righteousness.

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19 posted on 04/28/2002 8:33:28 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Concerto in D
The question regarding 'How was Satan capable of falling?" boils down to acknowledging volition in the souls of creatures with souls, accountability for that volition, and touches upon the meaning of sin and evil.

I would amplify a bit upon RnMomof7's comments to note that some doctrine regarding the Angelic Conflict notes how Lucifer was in a Perfect Environment, the Most Beautiful, Most Intelligent angel, called the Son of the Morning.

When Lucifer initiated the "I Wills",...he operated outside of God's plan based upon his own independent volition.

This is a very significant doctrine. Other doctrinal studies regarding prehuman history indicate that when Lucifer and a third of the angels who joined him in rebellion, were judged and cast out of heaven and he became Satan, as the Adversary he challenged God's just and immutable character. The doctrine continues that man was created parallel to the angelic domain as a evidence test for all to see that God's judgment was indeed just.

So just as things were before man and before the fall in God's Garden, where Lucifer became Satan and initiated sin with thought, decision and action,...likewise sin also originated in the Garden of Eden based upon volition in the soul, with thought, decision and action.

In both cases there is penalty for sin.

Some other interesting notes are that in both cases, lessor creations were then elevated past those who had originally been created perfect.

In the case of angels, Lucifer was the perfect, highest angel, a cherub,...but after the fall, the seraphim were given 6 wings as a sign of promotion over the cherubs with 4 wings by some doctrinal studies. Also upon the death of Christ on the Cross, we see a man descends to Abraham's bosom and returns 3 days later, victorious over death. Death had previously been the devil's domain where souls fell under the domain of a still powerful cherub, yet Christ unlocked the doors for the elect. Again, born a bit lower than the angels, He was elevated in authority over the Adversary.

A parallel again exists with respect to man and a relationship to Satan from the Garden of Eden. At the time of Adam before the fall in the Garden of Eden, Lucifer had already fallen along with a third of the angels. Some doctrine regarding the Gap Theory, suggests that chaos was a consequence after the fall in the Garden of God by Satan, then with respect to man, a Gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 existed where a perfect creation became chaos, but it wasn't originally chaotic per Isaiah 45:18. Then came the Creation as we are concerned, in 6 days and Adam was in the Garden of Eden, perfect and created in the image of God.

This had to have attracted the attention of Satan who had been cast down but was still prince of this world.

So in the Garden of Eden we have the father of lies, the originator of sin, introduce the temptation to Eve. The thought, decision and action was shared by Adam and again we have a fall,....but note in both cases, Satan was the originator of evil.

Of note, is that although Satan obviously intended to use the creation of man as an example of how Satan could substitute for God, God was stil of immutable character. Furthermore, when man, with separate volition from Satan, sinned,...he incurred the wrath of God.

So again, God's judgment is still immutable and perfect. Also so there is risk involved for those who act independently from God, note that God then placed enmity in the heart of Eve and her seed towards the shining one, the serpent, i.e. even though Satan succeeded in encouraging man to sin, Satan failed to win worship of God's creation of man in His image, as a new kingdom for Satan. Instead a new player is on deck with volition, namely man.

This doctrine is important because it explains why 'do-gooders' and humanists are still considered evil. namely they are acting independent of God's plan, which is the very issue which Satan is promoting because Satan wants to establish his will instead of God's.

This is why one might read seemingly extreme conspiracy theorists ranting about "Freemasons" as being Luciferians or Satanists. Some sincerely are, because they are worshipping a 'human good will' independent of God's plan. I suspect there have been Christians and saints who may have sought a body of believers to perform good works after salvation and were lessor freemasons, but this is the foundations for that doctrine.

I make the point because the original sin, I believe is based more upon independent thought, decision and acts away from God's will, rather than simply poignantly explicitly stating they are going to elevate themselves above God. (Their actions do that also, but perhaps not cognitively,...like some Wiccans who might be truthful, although most are liars.)

21 posted on 05/01/2002 9:52:23 PM PDT by Cvengr
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